Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[Horizon22]

Your train was on P4 since 18:38, the Liv inbound arrived into P5 18:53, so quick turnaround for the Liverpool train which left 4m late.

Surprisingly yours left 40m late. Even behind the 19:40 to Birmingham which used P5 aswell after the Liverpool left!!

Probably awaiting crew, or a technical fault.

 

[Jimini]

Your train was on P4 since 18:38, the Liv inbound arrived into P5 18:53, so quick turnaround for the Liverpool train which left 4m late.

Surprisingly yours left 40m late. Even behind the 19:40 to Birmingham which used P5 aswell after the Liverpool left!!

Aye, we were waiting for the driver to arrive (the weather was pretty horrific so there was plenty of disruption around). I was on the ramp at 1845 patiently waiting We'd already boarded the 1910 by the time the 1940 on P5 was announced and I had a table seat, so decided to sit tight and take the delay repay instead!

 

[Falcon1200]

Yes at Euston AWC trains are boarding when the TOC gives the ok.

Thanks, that is how I thought it would work.

Has anyone tried to get an official answer as to why Euston operates like this, and whose decision that is?

Presumably it is sometimes due to factors beyond the direct control of the staff at Euston, such as short turnrounds (booked or due to disruption), set diagram changes, faults requiring attention, awaiting cleaning staff (if for example multiple trains arrive in a short space of time). But I would hope measures are taken to reduce the issues described, eg not planning almost simultaneous departures from either side of the same island platform!

 

[Starmill]

The fact people like to rush for trains and create a stampede is not easy to manage. There are clearly things that need to improve (including the 3rd Brum and 2nd scouse services) but it is not through a lack of mitigations bring in place.

I'm afraid this is plainly wrong. If this were true, the ORR wouldn't have intervened as they have...

On P5, the 1907 to Liverpool was only advertised about five mins before its scheduled departure time -- once it finally appeared on the boards, it stated "platform closing in 00:45" and the countdown immediately began. That's one hell of a way to panic 200+ people into running down the ramps and along the platform!!

This is breathtaking incompetence given the ORR's letter.

 

[Skie]

At Lime St and Picc is easier to see what platform your train is going from. Plus for long distance its only AWC from both of those stations that have ‘intercity’ length trains. Very different at Euston and the comments are not correct about the management.

It's nothing to do with being able to see the trains. It's not like people at Euston, if they could see the trains, would blindly wander down to them as there are 3+ of the same class in at any one time. Even Pic and Limestreet can have 2 in at a time (rarely in the latter stations case, but it happens). There is enough space on the platforms at Euston and Lime Street to accomodate a trainload of waiting passengers and a trainload of arriving passengers, but there isnt the space to accomodate it on the ramps. That needs to be avoided and can be done so by calling trains long before the crowds (and panic near to departure time) sets in, even if passengers can't physically board the train just yet.

A lot goes in to trying to manage the crowding and how this is done when there are simultaneous arrivals and departures from opposite platforms. The capacity of Euston concourse is only about 1.5 or 2 Pendolinos so when it is flowing the issues are not as bad. It is a small station compared to some others and serves far more cities compared to other routes. The fact people like to rush for trains and create a stampede is not easy to manage. There are clearly things that need to improve (including the 3rd Brum and 2nd scouse services) but it is not through a lack of mitigations bring in place. Let’s see what is improved over the next few months.

So much goes into trying that the ORR has sent improvement notices? The concourse capacity actually lends itself to the argument that passengers should be shifted to waiting at a platform. I believe the Euston situation is purely down to a desire to keep the revenue block in place, so once again the safety of passengers is being put at risk over profits when alternatives have been available for a long time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quick reminder we have the speculative thread alongside this one, I've replied to Skie's post there:

How to make the boarding experience at Euston safer and more pleasant

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dangerous-boarding-procedures-at-euston.259871/ The whole of Euston's buildings should be quickly removed and fully rebuilt, not waiting for HS2 or the Armageddon. Should be two large sets of barriers for 1-10, and one for 11-16+...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I believe the Euston situation is purely down to a desire to keep the revenue block in place, so once again the safety of passengers is being put at risk over profits when alternatives have been available for a long time.

That, quite possibly, sounds entirely plausible.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It's far from a new attitude at Euston.

Back in the early 90s when it was the practice to call into the office and then catch a later morning train; arrive in plenty of time for an Inter City departure about 10.00, join queue. Although the train was in the platform, the steel full height barrier was not opened (and then only wide enough for one at time, of course) about 5 minutes or less before departure. Queue shuffles forward slowly - no sense of urgency by barrier staff. And '30 seconds before departure time' the barrier is slammed shut, even though the passengers shut out had been there well before departure time.

 

[TPO]

I'm afraid this is plainly wrong. If this were true, the ORR wouldn't have intervened as they have...


This is breathtaking incompetence given the ORR's letter.

Very much so.

The simple solution is that all long distance trains have a minimum time from "called on the screens" to "gate closed" plus a "if you are queued at the Gateline, we won't dispatch until everyone in the queue when the train is called is through the gate and on the train."

If the train is late coming in, then if the timetable is too tight, then possibly it's late going out.

Network Rail and the TOC can fight the delay attribution out between them, but the cost going to them (rather than passenger safety) should be quite incentivising. Means that getting the trains back to Schedule is the cost of having enough trains/traincrew/cleaning staff etc. Rather than a scrum.

Of course it needs communicating and enforcing, so that passengers have confidence that they have time to walk all the way to the front set with their luggage and get on. Also helps if trains have enough capacity so all or most people getting on will get a seat.

The railway can manage queues and boarding well when it's a mind to. This seems to be an issue of "don't care" rather that "not actually possible"

TPO

 

[PG]

This is breathtaking incompetence given the ORR's letter.

Quite so.

Whether:

• those who received that letter failed to interpret it as 'things  must change' OR;
• are not respected by their staff so they then carry on as they always have

is open to question...

 

[Mountain Man]

I find the biggest issue is the level of non reserved seating on Avanti.

The rush seems to be worse for people trying to get the very limited unreserved seating.

So either a) Make it reservation mandatory so as long as you get there on time, you get a seat or b) Remove reservations so everyone knows it's a full train of unreserved. Which will get people wanting them but at least they'll be able to judge it better. Right now you see a massive crowd and you don't if 1 percent, 50 percent or 99 percent are competing for the unreserved seats

 

[jon0844]

I think people mostly want to be able to reserve a seat, but it's also important to allow people to buy walk-up/open tickets and travel when they want.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Good point.

What is critical is the passengers having confidence that THERE WILL BE ENOUGH TIME FOR ALL TO BOARD at a sensible pace- even if this delays the train by 15 minutes. Indeed, a "minimum guaranteed boarding time-" from calling the train to departure- being advertised and stuck to for every type of train leaving a busy terminus station (it could be longer for a long-distance train) would probably improve things considerably, for the cleaners and traincrew as well as passengers.

This.

On Sunday, I arrived at Euston on what should have been the 1110 arrival from Manchester. It arrived on P13 at 1055. As I reached the top of the ramp, the (delayed) 1049 Glasgow via WM was announced for P16. Cue the surge of passengers, who have no idea how long they now have before the train departs - it's already late remember, running for the train and almost taking me back down to the platforms with them (slight exaggeration, but you get the point). By the time I'd reached the toilets at the opposite end of the concourse, the same train was being announced with the added "please board the train now as it is ready to leave", which is a totally useless and unhelpful announcement which does nothing other than encourage further running and scrum like behaviour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the biggest issue is the level of non reserved seating on Avanti.

The rush seems to be worse for people trying to get the very limited unreserved seating.

I disagree, the problem is no lesser with WMT services on which no seats are reserved.

Applying LNER's system of being able to get late reservations after purchase at all sales channels might help, though. If I clicked through on my phone on the way to Euston to try to get a reservation and it said all were taken, I might consider a different train if I could.

 

[Spekejunction]

One day soon there’s going to be a serious accident..
An urgent rebuild separating arriving and departing passengers needs to take place..
If fast turnarounds are required a dock system could be the answer..
departing passengers on one side and arriving passengers on the other side..
Big advantage is simultaneous boarding along the whole length of the train..
Train can be cleaned,re supplied and prepared from the arrival side ..
Ask Formula 1 how it should be done..

 

[DelW]

On Sunday, I arrived at Euston on what should have been the 1110 arrival from Manchester. It arrived on P13 at 1055. As I reached the top of the ramp, the (delayed) 1049 Glasgow via WM was announced for P16. Cue the surge of passengers, who have no idea how long they now have before the train departs - it's already late remember, running for the train and almost taking me back down to the platforms with them (slight exaggeration, but you get the point). By the time I'd reached the toilets at the opposite end of the concourse, the same train was being announced with the added "please board the train now as it is ready to leave", which is a totally useless and unhelpful announcement which does nothing other than encourage further running and scrum like behaviour.

That's interesting - I caught the 10:49 Glasgow via BHM from Euston on Sunday. The incoming train was late, but roughly as it arrived in p16, RTT changed its platform status to confirmed so I joined a queue of about 20 - 30 people at the top of the ramp, before it went up on the screens.

On this occasion, as soon as the incoming pax had cleared the ramp, we were allowed down with no hold-ups, so I was ahead of any crowding. The set was in reverse formation, so I walked up to coach U as I didn't have a reservation, and when the train left at 11:09 that coach was still fairly empty. It didn't really fill up until Coventry.

We were scheduled to run slow line then Northampton loop, but in the event the track works must have completed early, I think we went to fast line at Ledburn and we certainly went main line via Kilsby not Northampton. As a result, despite the 20 minute late departure we reached Rugby early (and ahead of the 10:46 EUS to Glasgow via Trent Valley which had left on time but had run via Northampton - it passed us as we waited time at Rugby).

 

[ScouserGirl]

London Euston has been like this for years, I remember when I lived in Liverpool and went to London regularly, Euston when I was coming home was horrendous the always announced the platform like 5 mins before departure which then means it’s a stampede, reading through this thread it seems to be Excatly the same as what it was years ago. I use Paddington now and that can be just as bad but they do give you longer to board unless there’s major disruption

 

[The Planner]

One day soon there’s going to be a serious accident..
An urgent rebuild separating arriving and departing passengers needs to take place..
If fast turnarounds are required a dock system could be the answer..
departing passengers on one side and arriving passengers on the other side..
Big advantage is simultaneous boarding along the whole length of the train..
Train can be cleaned,re supplied and prepared from the arrival side ..
Ask Formula 1 how it should be done..

How many lines and trains do you want to take out to achieve that and where is the space coming from if not? How can people board if people are getting off, its not as though their is space on the trains to do that.

 

[kingqueen]

It's not his usual thing (as for obvious reasons wheelchair user discrimination is more his thing) but perhaps @kingqueen would know who might look at this?

Cheers for this
It is something that the wider disability rights community is aware of, it has registered in people's heads the blatant difficulty and discrimination this causes.
#EustonWeHaveAProblem
I'll re-raise to see if somebody would take a case.

 

[Horizon22]

Quite so.

Whether:

• those who received that letter failed to interpret it as 'things  must change' OR;
• are not respected by their staff so they then carry on as they always have

is open to question...

It depends whether managers at a junior enough level and the people who carry out the actions on a day-to-day basis that led to the problems in this thread are being instructed to make immediate changes or are even fully aware. Or care. I could totally see someone giving an instruction that isn't practically achievable to a controller who doesn't have knowledge of the systems/operations. Some issues are - in my eyes anyway - very simple to fix, others will take some real thought and planned, coordinated action.

 

[Starmill]

By the time I'd reached the toilets at the opposite end of the concourse, the same train was being announced with the added "please board the train now as it is ready to leave", which is a totally useless and unhelpful announcement which does nothing other than encourage further running and scrum like behaviour.

Again, breathtaking incompetence given the ORR's letter. A few clicks are all that'd be needed to disable that announcement completely. It appears nothing is getting through to senior management at Network Rail / TOCs about this.

 

[Spekejunction]

How many lines and trains do you want to take out to achieve that and where is the space coming from if not? How can people board if people are getting off, its not as though their is space on the trains to do that.

Nobody boards until the arriving train has been cleared for boarding ..quite easy to achieve because doors remain closed ..

 

[strawbrick]

One day soon there’s going to be a serious accident..
An urgent rebuild separating arriving and departing passengers needs to take place..
If fast turnarounds are required a dock system could be the answer..
departing passengers on one side and arriving passengers on the other side..
Big advantage is simultaneous boarding along the whole length of the train..
Train can be cleaned,re supplied and prepared from the arrival side ..
Ask Formula 1 how it should be done..

Many years ago, before HS2 was thought of, there was a serious proposal to completely re-build Euston on two levels to segregate arriving and departing passengers as much as possible. The tracks and platforms would have been at much the same level with arriving passengers leaving the station via ramps to the existing concourse level and hence to the street / Underground. A deck was to be built over the tracks, slightly higher than the existing concourse, to provide a concourse for intending travellers with at least two if not three access points to the platforms below. Shame it will never happen.

 

[The Planner]

Nobody boards until the arriving train has been cleared for boarding ..quite easy to achieve because doors remain closed ..

Then why do you need platforms either side? You raised the same thing 6 months ago and couldnt answer the questions posed back then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then why do you need platforms either side? You raised the same thing 6 months ago and couldnt answer the questions posed back then.

While I'd agree it's probably not practical due to space at Euston, the idea would presumably be that boarding passengers could freely access the departure platform when desired, thus removing the scrum.

 

[uglymonkey]

I'm afraid to say, I don't think anything will change unless someone gets seriously hurt. How anyone vulnerable ( frail, disabled, old etc..- never mind anxiety) is expected to "jump to" and rush at a moments notice is beyond me. It doesn't happen at King's Cross, so why Euston? Is it Euston's appalling architecture or operating procedures that are the cause ( or making it worse?) I avoid Euston for this reason as I experienced "the scrum" once years ago and thought to myself " never again"

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm afraid to say, I don't think anything will change unless someone gets seriously hurt. How anyone vulnerable ( frail, disabled, old etc..- never mind anxiety) is expected to "jump to" and rush at a moments notice is beyond me. It doesn't happen at King's Cross, so why Euston? Is it Euston's appalling architecture or operating procedures that are the cause ( or making it worse?) I avoid Euston for this reason as I experienced "the scrum" once years ago and thought to myself " never again"

It happens at KX to an extent, but I suspect the larger proportion of passengers holding reservations* and travelling on Advances** means fewer people feel the need to rush. The scrum at Luton airport used to rival that at Euston until seat allocation, and now while a few people do rush to get overhead bin space most people don't.

* Due to LNER's provision of lots of means of getting one right up to departure, which Avanti should replicate.
** Due to walk-up (super) off peak fares being about 20% more expensive, which Avanti should NOT replicate.

 

[setdown]

While I'd agree it's probably not practical due to space at Euston, the idea would presumably be that boarding passengers could freely access the departure platform when desired, thus removing the scrum.

This would work at Euston wouldn't it? Euston platforms are wide and long, and people can be spread out. I remember waiting for a late-arriving LNR 8 car service on a Friday afternoon. There were a lot of people on the platform waiting for it, but there was ample space, and there were no issues even when everyone was getting off. It's not like we're talking Piccadilly p13/14 here with regards to platform size.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would work at Euston wouldn't it? Euston platforms are wide and long, and people can be spread out. I remember waiting for a late-arriving LNR 8 car service on a Friday afternoon. There were a lot of people on the platform waiting for it, but there was ample space, and there were no issues even when everyone was getting off. It's not like we're talking Piccadilly p13/14 here with regards to platform size.

I can see no reason to suppress LNR platforms at all. They don't clean at Euston (or if they do it's just a very quick walk through collecting obvious litter) and there is nothing to prepare. They were not suppressed until the start of the LM franchise, and there are no boarding checks other than at the 8-11 gateline which isn't specifically manned for specific trains.

 

[Spekejunction]

Many years ago, before HS2 was thought of, there was a serious proposal to completely re-build Euston on two levels to segregate arriving and departing passengers as much as possible. The tracks and platforms would have been at much the same level with arriving passengers leaving the station via ramps to the existing concourse level and hence to the street / Underground. A deck was to be built over the tracks, slightly higher than the existing concourse, to provide a concourse for intending travellers with at least two if not three access points to the platforms below. Shame it will never happen.

Maybe ORR might do a West Coast on them and insist on changes..?q