Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[The Planner]

Maybe ORR might do a West Coast on them and insist on changes..?q

Not at the cost it would incur, no.

 

[Skie]

Cheers for this
It is something that the wider disability rights community is aware of, it has registered in people's heads the blatant difficulty and discrimination this causes.
#EustonWeHaveAProblem
I'll re-raise to see if somebody would take a case.

Don't miss out on the other aspect, where they seem to be disadvantaging deaf passengers:

Following the ORR notice, N.R Euston, is now doing voice announcements for the platforms in advance, and some minutes later, is showing it on the board. Everything falls under the crowd management commitment, and this is an attempt to make it safer for the passengers.

 

[London Trains]

I'll give a completely contrasting view to most, Avanti scrapping reservations entirely should massively reduce the problems at Euston. The majority of people rushing (when there aren't any delays) are either trying to get an unreserved seat, or need space for their luggage near their reserved seats. Scrapping all reservations would mean neither of these problems would exist, and it is an incentive to arriving early at the station.

Also, the platforms should be announced well before the train is ready (20-30 mins in my opinion, this should apply to LNR too), even if the inbound service hasn't arrived yet, with passengers queuing along the ramps until the train has been cleaned. This would mean there would be no reason to wait on the concourse.

 

[Benjwri]

I'll give a completely contrasting view to most, Avanti scrapping reservations entirely should massively reduce the problems at Euston. The majority of people rushing (when there aren't any delays) are either trying to get an unreserved seat, or need space for their luggage near their reserved seats. Scrapping all reservations would mean neither of these problems would exist, and it is an incentive to arriving early at the station.

Scrapping reservations entirely is an option which is entirely unfriendly to the customer, I don’t think there is any long distance railway in Europe which doesn’t offer reservations on journeys the length Avanti offers. Reservations are essential to people to in their mind guarantee they will have a seat for a long journey. I also don’t agree that it will stop the rush, people will most definitely still run to try and get a seat, and sometimes getting to the station late cant be helped, especially when arriving from an infrequently served destination or when another train is late. I really dislike this idea that the railway should be like planes where you’re expected to arrive far before your journey.

This of course is without mentioning that this is not going to look good on a disabled standpoint for people who might need to be seated.

 

[Northerngirl]

I'll give a completely contrasting view to most, Avanti scrapping reservations entirely should massively reduce the problems at Euston. The majority of people rushing (when there aren't any delays) are either trying to get an unreserved seat, or need space for their luggage near their reserved seats. Scrapping all reservations would mean neither of these problems would exist, and it is an incentive to arriving early at the station.

Also, the platforms should be announced well before the train is ready (20-30 mins in my opinion, this should apply to LNR too), even if the inbound service hasn't arrived yet, with passengers queuing along the ramps until the train has been cleaned. This would mean there would be no reason to wait on the concourse.

I completely agree with you there, if there's no incentive to rush, then the problem would instantly go away. How come ever other station (exept the dictatorship at Blackpool north) can manage safely with just telling people where to go in advance, it's hardly like the platforms are small

 

[Benjwri]

I completely agree with you there, if there's no incentive to rush, then the problem would instantly go away. How come ever other station (exept the dictatorship at Blackpool north) can manage safely with just telling people where to go in advance, it's hardly like the platforms are small

I entirely fail to see how taking away seat reservations removes the incentive to rush? You’re turning a partial free for all into a total free for all.

Everyone involved in the current scrum, who doesn’t have a seat reservation, will turn up at the same time, as they still don’t have a seat reservation, and then you add a bunch of people who did have one, so might not have been as worried, who now don’t and are fighting for one too.

You haven’t added to the supply of seats, which would be the other more difficult way to solve this, the supppy of seats is the same, but now no one knows if they’ll get one, so everyone is panicking in a scrum.

The solution is just to announce platforms earlier. People will get to the train more gradually. I would argue those who have a reservation turn up earlier if they can anyways to make sure they make their train. There might still be a smaller scrum, as those who turn up late and get the first train they see try to make the train about to leave, but nothing like we see now.

I don’t see there being any need for these drastic station rebuilds, binning of all reservations etc that is being suggested, before the simple solution, which improves everyone’s journey, costs the tax payer absolutely nothing bar maybe the wages of a few extra ticket inspectors has been tried.

 

[Skie]

People wanting to sit together, families or those who needed to use a laptop on a table would be forced to rush if reservations weren’t available. Those are common enough groups to guarantee the scrum continues unabated.

 

[Kite159]

'll give a completely contrasting view to most, Avanti scrapping reservations entirely should massively reduce the problems at Euston.

On the other hand it will massively increase the problems at Euston with passengers aiming for the better seats on a Pendo. Ie tables so they can do work, seats with a window.

 

[Benjwri]

On the other hand it will massively increase the problems at Euston with passengers aiming for the better seats on a Pendo. Ie tables so they can do work, seats with a window.

Or just a seat at all for anyone who doesn’t regularly take a train and know they can get one. On trains where people know people are normally left standing everyone would be worried about getting a seat and you’d make the problem worse.

 

[nlogax]

I completely fail to see how removing reservations would help here. Quite the opposite, it would exacerbate what is an already dismal situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I completely fail to see how removing reservations would help here. Quite the opposite, it would exacerbate what is an already dismal situation.

It'd probably be about the same. I haven't noticed a difference in unpleasantness between LNR services (no reservations) and Avanti ones (reservations).

 

[Kite159]

Or just a seat at all for anyone who doesn’t regularly take a train and know they can get one. On trains where people know people are normally left standing everyone would be worried about getting a seat and you’d make the problem worse.

So for someone boarding a London train midway through it's journey will no longer be guaranteed a seat with no seat reservations in place? Ie Warrington to London.

One way to push people towards using their cars.

 

[Benjwri]

So for someone boarding a London train midway through it's journey will no longer be guaranteed a seat with no seat reservations in place? Ie Warrington to London.

One way to push people towards using their cars.

Apologies if it wasn't clear, my post was against removing reservations, I was pointing out that along with people who wanted a specific seat it would make people who weren't sure thye would get a seat at all rush, and make the problem worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apologies if it wasn't clear, my post was against removing reservations, I was pointing out that along with people who wanted a specific seat it would make people who weren't sure thye would get a seat at all rush, and make the problem worse.

It doesn't make the problem worse, you can easily stand at Euston and compare between a 12-car 350 formation and an 11 car Pendolino and see that the scrum is exactly the same.

It doesn't make it better either, though.

 

[Benjwri]

It doesn't make the problem worse, you can easily stand at Euston and compare between a 12-car 350 formation and an 11 car Pendolino and see that the scrum is exactly the same.

It doesn't make it better either, though.

The question is more, if they announced boarding long before would it be worse though. The scrum is partially bad because people are afraid they are going to miss their train, along with not get a seat etc. If both were announced further in advance, I think both would be better than before, but the Pendolino would be the better of the two.

 

[Kite159]

It doesn't make the problem worse, you can easily stand at Euston and compare between a 12-car 350 formation and an 11 car Pendolino and see that the scrum is exactly the same.

It doesn't make it better either, though.

Late notice announcement of platforms, especially with those 'platform closing in XX;YY' screens

Although even for 350s there will be a rush to try and get a decent seat (ie the extra legroom table seat behind the cabs). Especially if you are with a family or wanting to do some work on a laptop (where a table seat is better than an airline style seat)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although even for 350s there will be a rush to try and get a decent seat (ie the extra legroom table seat behind the cabs). Especially if you are with a family or wanting to do some work on a laptop (where a table seat is better than an airline style seat)

That seat goes surprisingly slowly in my experience. It is good though!

 

[Peter0124]

I disagree with removing reservations entirely, or even at all.

I think they should have lengthened all 390s to 11 cars to keep a more uniform fleet. There's a big difference in unreserved coaches between 9 cars and 11 cars with one vs three respectively. I try and avoid 9 cars when possible if I haven't reserved a seat especially as I usually travel with a laptop and need a table.

But I usually reserve a seat now, particularly if I am travelling longer than two hours.

EDIT - However you aren't always guaranteed a seat when reserving, as the train could be cancelled, or the reservation system breaks for example.
I do think there should be a penalty if someone knowingly and wilfully sits in your reserved seat and refuses to move, and it should be enforced.

 

[moogal]

That seat goes surprisingly slowly in my experience. It is good though!

Oh I don't know, I'm usually one of the first onto the platform when it's announced and it's usually gone by then. Less of a problem these days when the declassified First section is usually pretty pleasant.

On the main topic of the thread, I've definitely had some unpleasant experiences with crowds rushing for LNR services, though this tends to be worse when the service is advertised as being shortformed, as most regular travellers know that a 4 car 350 can fill up extremely quickly!

 

[Facing Back]

I disagree with removing reservations entirely, or even at all.

I think they should have lengthened all 390s to 11 cars to keep a more uniform fleet. There's a big difference in unreserved coaches between 9 cars and 11 cars with one vs three respectively. I try and avoid 9 cars when possible if I haven't reserved a seat especially as I usually travel with a laptop and need a table.

But I usually reserve a seat now, particularly if I am travelling longer than two hours.

EDIT - However you aren't always guaranteed a seat when reserving, as the train could be cancelled, or the reservation system breaks for example.
I do think there should be a penalty if someone knowingly and wilfully sits in your reserved seat and refuses to move, and it should be enforced.

Maybe I've been lucky. Whenever I've found someone in my reserve seat and asked them to move, they always have - apart from once, but in coach K on a Pendalino one of the staff by the galley wandered over almost immediately and spoke sternly to the person in question and that was that. I agree that it should be enforced.

 

[londonmidland]

Another day, another late advertised LNR Crewe service.

The 13:46 to Crewe was advertised at 13:42, with a mad dash of passengers hurrying down to the platform.

Just under 5 minutes for everyone to board, as we left at 13:46.

The picture shows a departure screen advertising the late boarding of the 13:46 to Crewe.

 

[al78]

People wanting to sit together, families or those who needed to use a laptop on a table would be forced to rush if reservations weren’t available. Those are common enough groups to guarantee the scrum continues unabated.

Not just that but also people who have large luggage which will only fit in the vertical luggage racks which are inadequate in number for the number of people who want to store luggage in them. I've had that issue when going between London and Manchester with a folding bike.

I do think there should be a penalty if someone knowingly and wilfully sits in your reserved seat and refuses to move, and it should be enforced.

I agree in principle but you have the same problem as with fare dodgers or antisocial behaviour, the staff can or will do nothing if the offender looks like they might kick off violently (which in general seems to be happening more often these days). If the answer is to hold the train and get BTP to deal with the incident, everyone else on the train is then penalised with a delay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another day, another late advertised LNR Crewe service.

The 13:46 to Crewe was advertised at 13:42, with a mad dash of passengers hurrying down to the platform.

Just under 5 minutes for everyone to board, as we left at 13:46.

Have they taken that stupid countdown clock off if it's delayed? That's at least something.

Not just that but also people who have large luggage which will only fit in the vertical luggage racks which are inadequate in number for the number of people who want to store luggage in them

The vast majority of people travel with IATA size carryons which fit the overheads but people are too bone idle to put them up so they clog up those stacks. (Crikey, my massive rucksack fits Pendolino overheads, as does my large check-in trolley case, though since the Lumo incident that seems to be discouraged).

To be fair the Pendolino refurb has made the stacks bigger, in any case.

 

[Kite159]

Another day, another late advertised LNR Crewe service.

The 13:46 to Crewe was advertised at 13:42, with a mad dash of passengers hurrying down to the platform.

Just under 5 minutes for everyone to board, as we left at 13:46.

At least the screen doesn't say "platform closing in XX:YY minutes" with a countdown to cause more of a panic.

 

[jon0844]

If a train at Euston is running late, does the departure time get accurately amended to account for the crew change, cleaning etc - or does it just add on a fixed amount of time that creates panic, despite the fact the train isn't going to just come in and go back out in a few minutes?

I believe there's 6 minutes minimum for a 717 to turn around if it's the same driver changing ends, and for an IC train there must be a lot of things to do - so the screens can help reduce the rush if people aren't running for a train not going anywhere.

 

[Trackman]

The vast majority of people travel with IATA size carryons which fit the overheads but people are too bone idle to put them up so they clog up those stacks. (Crikey, my massive rucksack fits Pendolino overheads, as does my large check-in trolley case, though since the Lumo incident that seems to be discouraged).

To be fair the Pendolino refurb has made the stacks bigger, in any case.

A very good point.
My travel bag which is fairly large fits in the overhead - plus you can keep an eye on it.

 

[jon0844]

I've always thought some trains have pretty pathetic overhead racks, and others look smaller than they are - which means a lot of people won't even try them.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

If a train at Euston is running late, does the departure time get accurately amended to account for the crew change, cleaning etc - or does it just add on a fixed amount of time that creates panic, despite the fact the train isn't going to just come in and go back out in a few minutes?

I believe there's 6 minutes minimum for a 717 to turn around if it's the same driver changing ends, and for an IC train there must be a lot of things to do - so the screens can help reduce the rush if people aren't running for a train not going anywhere.

No, departure time stays the same. You lose as much of the turnaround time as possible and leave as close to departure time as you can

 

[ModernRailways]

If a train at Euston is running late, does the departure time get accurately amended to account for the crew change, cleaning etc - or does it just add on a fixed amount of time that creates panic, despite the fact the train isn't going to just come in and go back out in a few minutes?

I believe there's 6 minutes minimum for a 717 to turn around if it's the same driver changing ends, and for an IC train there must be a lot of things to do - so the screens can help reduce the rush if people aren't running for a train not going anywhere.

As @SCDR_WMR has said, the screens won't factor that in because that will depend on the crewing arrangements. The train crew who bring the service in may be those who take it back out so this may take a little longer, or it could be a fresh crew, who can be ready and waiting so it's just a case of handover between crew and they can turn around swiftly.

I'm not sure on the screens at Euston, but for ours it will just state either the original departure time (if the inbound journey is still arriving before the scheduled departure), or it will state 'Expected XX:XX' (the arrival time of the inbound service), if the inbound service hasn't moved, then it will change to just say 'Delayed'

I've seen LNER turn a full length set at Newcastle in around 5 minutes, though the catering wasn't restocked and the main issue it took longer was just waiting for passengers to alight/board so it can be done exceptionally quickly. If the departure boards planned for the original crew change/turnaround then the service would've ended up leaving before the new posted (expected) departure time.

Intercity stock does generally take longer to turn whereas commuter stock you could turn a full set around in under 2-3 minutes. Of course we all know rushing is not going to win you any awards though so it's best to be 5 minutes late than to rush and mess something up. If we've been late on an inbound and then we're the same crew taking it back out, then I've often cab to cab so we can work together to get a quicker departure. It could mean one of us pressing the TRTS where we normally wouldn't because it's the other persons job, it could mean guard using a door panel elsewhere in train so they can release the doors and then dispatch from the same spot and just need to wait for driver to get into cab. There's plenty of ways of shrinking turnaround time, the passengers can sometimes be the ones who slow it all down when they're fighting the 20 suitcases they've brought for a weekend away

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Does having onboard cleaning crew on longer distance ('inter city' type) services arriving into London Euston potentially facilitate quicker turnaround times?