DB considers London service once again

[YorkRailFan]

German rail operator Deutsche Bahn says Channel Tunnel routes to London were still of "fundamental interest" to it. This follows the tunnel operator announcing plans to make the rails compatible with more trains.Germany's state-owned railway company Deutsche Bahn (DB) said on Saturday that it was vying to launch services through the Channel Tunnel under the English Channel.

"Transport between London and the mainland through the Eurotunnel remains of fundamental interest to Deutsche Bahn," a DB spokesperson told the Germany press agency dpa.

The news comes as DB's long-distance cross-border passenger rail demand increases, amid greater demand for climate-friendly transport.

The German operator had long looked at launching services through the Channel connecting England and the European continent, but years of dispute over safey requirements put the plan on hold.

Currently travelers wishing to take a train from Germany to London have to change trains and train operators in Brussels for the last leg under the DB originally planned to run its high-speed ICE trains from Frankfurt to London, but years of safety disputes prevented this.

The train would pass through Cologne, Brussels and Lille, France, according to the original plan that was drawn up in 2013.

Eurostar, which operates passenger trains that use the Channel, has had a monopoly for nearly 30 years.

Channel Tunnel to add more destinations, increase high-speed rail services
The plan has once again been set in motion after Getlink, the operator of the Channel Tunnel, said it had plans to introduce more services through the undersea link.

In a statement last month, Getlink said it aimed to double the number of high-speed rail services from London over the next 10 years. It specifically mentioned new routes from London to Cologne and Frankfurt in Germany, and to Geneva and Zurich in Switzerland.Channel.Among other things, Getlink said that a more rapid renovation of safety infrastructure would help enable this, making the stretch of rail compatible with other operators' trains.

A DB spokesperson told dpa that routes and trains were currently not equipped with an end-to-end European Train Control System which is the European rail safety system.

"The approval of our ICE trains for Belgium, northern France and England depends on this equipment," the DB spokesperson said, referring to plans to connect major European cities and England.

Channel Tunnel: Deutsche Bahn keen on trains to London – DW – 01/13/2024

German rail operator Deutsche Bahn says Channel Tunnel routes to London were still of "fundamental interest" to it. This follows the tunnel operator announcing plans to make the rails compatible with more trains.

www.dw.com

The approval of ICE operations in the UK is one hurdle for DB. St Pancras will be overflowing in terms of the security and customs area and is only suited to handle Eurostar, let alone DB, SBB and other companies looking to start cross-Channel service. Don't get me wrong, I would love DB to serve London, but there are many hurdles and it has become harder since DB last tried thanks to Brexit (whatever your opinion is on it) among other things.

 

[Nunners]

Channel Tunnel: Deutsche Bahn keen on trains to London – DW – 01/13/2024

German rail operator Deutsche Bahn says Channel Tunnel routes to London were still of "fundamental interest" to it. This follows the tunnel operator announcing plans to make the rails compatible with more trains.

www.dw.com

The approval of ICE operations in the UK is one hurdle for DB. St Pancras will be overflowing in terms of the security and customs area and is only suited to handle Eurostar, let alone DB, SBB and other companies looking to start cross-Channel service. Don't get me wrong, I would love DB to serve London, but there are many hurdles and it has become harder since DB last tried thanks to Brexit (whatever your opinion is on it) among other things.

It sounds like it's a long term goal and contingent on LGV Nord and HS1 having ETCS installed. I vaguely remember that this was planned for at least some of LGV Nord

 

[MarcVD]

It sounds like it's a long term goal and contingent on LGV Nord and HS1 having ETCS installed. I vaguely remember that this was planned for at least some of LGV Nord

In Belgium it is expected that TVM430 will be replaced by ETCS by the end of this decade, at latest. I think I have seen 2028 written somewhere. As far as I know, Thalys PBA and PBKA sets already have it, as well E* 320 sets. E* 300 and TGV réseau tricourant don't. I do not know what the plans are on the SNCF side, whether they will replace TVM430 by ETCS or install both in parallel like they have done elsewhere.

 

[DanielB]

As far as I know, Thalys PBA and PBKA sets already have it, as well E* 320 sets.

They should have as they use it on the Dutch high speed line (and HSL 4 in Belgium)

 

[peteb]

Channel Tunnel: Deutsche Bahn keen on trains to London – DW – 01/13/2024

German rail operator Deutsche Bahn says Channel Tunnel routes to London were still of "fundamental interest" to it. This follows the tunnel operator announcing plans to make the rails compatible with more trains.

www.dw.com

The approval of ICE operations in the UK is one hurdle for DB. St Pancras will be overflowing in terms of the security and customs area and is only suited to handle Eurostar, let alone DB, SBB and other companies looking to start cross-Channel service. Don't get me wrong, I would love DB to serve London, but there are many hurdles and it has become harder since DB last tried thanks to Brexit (whatever your opinion is on it) among other things.

So why don't DB or SBB look to use Ashford or Ebbsfleet instead of St Pancras? They could turn round there, do customs passport control etc as per pre pandemic Eurostar. Passengers could then travel onwards to St Pancras using domestic high speed or indeed use other rail services. No different really than using an ICE to Cologne from Brussels then going onwards in Germany to Berlin or Frankfurt.

 

[Joe Paxton]

So why don't DB or SBB look to use Ashford or Ebbsfleet instead of St Pancras? They could turn round there, do customs passport control etc as per pre pandemic Eurostar. Passengers could then travel onwards to St Pancras using domestic high speed or indeed use other rail services. No different really than using an ICE to Cologne from Brussels then going onwards in Germany to Berlin or Frankfurt.

I know that occasionally Eurostar used to bar bookings on certain trains for travel from Ebbsfleet when there were lots of passengers booked already, as the departure lounge would otherwise end up overcrowded. I don't know what the capacity was, but it wasn't that large. I never started a Eurostar journey at Ashford so I can't speak to the situation there.

 

[paul1609]

I think the issue at Ashford is that whilst the station can cope with a full train of arrivals. Southeastern don't have enough rolling stock to clear the passengers. HS services are more or less full for much of the day from Ashford.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I think the issue at Ashford is that whilst the station can cope with a full train of arrivals. Southeastern don't have enough rolling stock to clear the passengers. HS services are more or less full for much of the day from Ashford.

But presumably there's capacity to run a more frequent service between Ashford and St P?

And if a new addition to the cross-channel service had to terminate most trains at Ashford, because of lack of processing space at St P, maybe such tickets could include an onward journey to any London (or Kent) station served from Ashford for people who might anyway be ending up somewhere well away from St P. Ashford to south London (including London Bridge, Waterloo East and so on) isn't much over an hour, which isn't dramatically longer than Ashford to St P and changing there to head back south; and a direct journey from Ashford is less hassle.

Furthermore, given that processing is all at one end of the journey, some of these services could carry on to St P when arriving in Britain (without overloading St P facilities), even if many of them could only take passengers starting from Ashford when heading outbound.

If it means making more use of the tunnel capacity, and if it means additional destinations on the continent, it must surely be worthwhile finding a way round the St P capacity problem - where there's a will there's a way...

 

[popeter45]

Suggestions that other non budget operators use Ashford is like suggesting non budget airlines use Southend airport, they want the service to central London directly not Kent

St pancreas has the track capacity so not impossible to solve the security capacity issues if needed

 

[D7666]

One DB ICE version - their Class 407 - is generically already all but channel tunnel ready; they were ordered and specified by DB the first time round of tunnel interest. 407s are simply 8car versions of Eurostar 374s.

Obviously 407s need fitting with TVM - but are already passively provided this is no blocking point.

There are almost no obstacles for 407s - other DB ICE yes including 408s - but 407s no, they were built for it.

At the moment 407s are deployed on other ICE work, but again that is no blocking point, rediagramming only.

That one DB ICE that did visit St.Pancras was not of the 407 variety - it was a different type; forget which class now.

Other non rolling stock issues maybe, but trains themselves DB already have - unlike any other current or recent rival Eurostar plan.

 

[YorkRailFan]

So why don't DB or SBB look to use Ashford or Ebbsfleet instead of St Pancras? They could turn round there, do customs passport control etc as per pre pandemic Eurostar. Passengers could then travel onwards to St Pancras using domestic high speed or indeed use other rail services. No different really than using an ICE to Cologne from Brussels then going onwards in Germany to Berlin or Frankfurt.

Because DB wants to serve London and not Kent. DB may as well only serve Lille and then say passengers should transfer onto Eurostar to get to London.

 

[LBMPSB]

Nothing to be gained by DB terminating at Ashford or Ebbsfleet. Very few passengers would want those stations, so the majority would want London. Would Ebbsfleet & Ashford cope with 900+ passenegrs per train transferring beetwwen them and Southeastern High Speed trains? Would Southeastern High Speed Trains cope? They may as well carry on terminating at Brussels and let passengers change there as nothing is gained.

 

[Citybreak1]

They already ran an ICE train to London abour 2010. And they wont require much capacity maybe 3/4 trains like Amsterdam. Also these trains are closest we have to Eurostar trains inside so for me it’s a winner. Imagine with the euros this year if we had a service up and running.

 

[Cloud Strife]

St Pancras will be overflowing in terms of the security and customs area and is only suited to handle Eurostar, let alone DB, SBB and other companies looking to start cross-Channel service

St Pancras could conceivably be reconfigured to add some capacity. For instance, the upper concourse at the Eurostar end could possibly be reconfigured to provide additional capacity, with the entrance under the clock potentially being transformed into a new border control area for departures. Arrivals really do not need that much capacity, especially if a rule is introduced that all passengers must clear border control before arriving in the UK. Customs might remain a small issue, but again, it's possible to have only a small area facing passengers and then conduct more extensive checks elsewhere.

 

[CarrotPie]

I think the issue at Ashford is that whilst the station can cope with a full train of arrivals. Southeastern don't have enough rolling stock to clear the passengers. HS services are more or less full for much of the day from Ashford.

But presumably there's capacity to run a more frequent service between Ashford and St P?

SE would have much more capacity on Ashford-STP services if they ran more than 2x6-car tph! Pre-COVID IIRC they used to run 3 or 4tph, several of which were 12-cars. It seems like SE is intent on running down the Highspeed brand, but that's a rant for another thread...

 

[D365]

They already ran an ICE train to London abour 2010.

Was that unit fitted with TVM430 signalling?

 

[rvdborgt]

Was that unit fitted with TVM430 signalling?

It didn't run under its own power.

 

[YorkRailFan]

St Pancras could conceivably be reconfigured to add some capacity. For instance, the upper concourse at the Eurostar end could possibly be reconfigured to provide additional capacity, with the entrance under the clock potentially being transformed into a new border control area for departures. Arrivals really do not need that much capacity, especially if a rule is introduced that all passengers must clear border control before arriving in the UK. Customs might remain a small issue, but again, it's possible to have only a small area facing passengers and then conduct more extensive checks elsewhere.

It all depends if the UK Government is willing to commit to this.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Imagine with the euros this year if we had a service up and running.

DB hasn't given a timeline but it would definitely not be this year, I would say 2027 at the earliest.

 

[BahrainLad]

St Pancras could conceivably be reconfigured to add some capacity. For instance, the upper concourse at the Eurostar end could possibly be reconfigured to provide additional capacity, with the entrance under the clock potentially being transformed into a new border control area for departures.

Do you mean the clock on the upper level? I can't see that happening. What would be better would be to turn the area underneath the departure boards opposite the National Rail ticket office into a second entrance into the departure lounge (this area after all backs onto it). Get rid of the pointless/overpriced "farmers market" and replace it with a checkin zone for Brussels/Amsterdam/new operator services, keeping Paris at the usual entrance.

 

[paul1609]

SE would have much more capacity on Ashford-STP services if they ran more than 2x6-car tph! Pre-COVID IIRC they used to run 3 or 4tph, several of which were 12-cars. It seems like SE is intent on running down the Highspeed brand, but that's a rant for another thread...

Off peak theres never generally been more than 2 tph on domestic hs services to Ashford. The only off peak services that have ever been 12 cars are ones where the return working was peak. Thats really a function of the fleet size of 29.
Post pandemic the only off peak reduction has been the removal of the rounders because of a collapse in the North Kent business but since Christmas even thats back to 2 tph as far out as Faversham.
The Ashford High Speed services have actually seen the best recovery on Southeastern outside of the M25. Mainline Services like the SEML and Hastings line are still very much in the doldrums revenue wise.
Unless someone is willing to invest in a new fleet there is still not going to be sufficient capacity to deal with International trains terminating at Ashford or Ebbsfleet.

 

[CarrotPie]

Off peak theres never generally been more than 2 tph on domestic hs services to Ashford. The only off peak services that have ever been 12 cars are ones where the return working was peak. Thats really a function of the fleet size of 29.

I stand corrected. However, I remember using HS1 to go up to London pre-pandemic and there were always many more free seats then there are now. I believe a few rounder diagrams were formed of 12 coaches at weekends too.

 

[LBMPSB]

Was that unit fitted with TVM430 signalling?

It did come over. But was hauled from the Channel Tunnel by a CTRL shunter to St Pancras because, it did not have TVM430 and was not certified to run under its own power.

 

[HST43257]

Am I being stupid somehow? Why can’t Stratford International be used if security/lounge space is an issue?

Get an hourly path from there.

1tp2h DB Stratford to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne
1tp4h SBB Stratford to Interlaken via Marne-la-Vallee, Strasbourg and Basel
1tp4h TGV Stratford to Marseille via Marne-la-Vallee, Lyon and Avignon

 

[GingerSte]

I've suggested a possible way to convert most of the arrivals area at St Pancras into additional departure space in St Pancras International departure hall - one potential solution for overcrowding.

With this being a completely separate departure hall to the existing used by Eurostar, this would probably be used by other operators (or a collection of other operators).

 

[paul1609]

Am I being stupid somehow? Why can’t Stratford International be used if security/lounge space is an issue?

Get an hourly path from there.

1tp2h DB Stratford to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne
1tp4h SBB Stratford to Interlaken via Marne-la-Vallee, Strasbourg and Basel
1tp4h TGV Stratford to Marseille via Marne-la-Vallee, Lyon and Avignon

Stratford isnt fitted out for International trains at all and was like Ebbsfleet never designed to be able to take a whole train of passengers terminating there. When Ebbsfleet and Stratford were designed and fitted (Ebbsfleet) out the plan was that International trains were going to be split between Waterloo and St Pancras.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Am I being stupid somehow? Why can’t Stratford International be used if security/lounge space is an issue?

Get an hourly path from there.

1tp2h DB Stratford to Frankfurt via Brussels and Cologne
1tp4h SBB Stratford to Interlaken via Marne-la-Vallee, Strasbourg and Basel
1tp4h TGV Stratford to Marseille via Marne-la-Vallee, Lyon and Avignon

With only one arrival and departure an hour, I think the Stratford layout is sufficient for those services to reverse there without needing to go on to St P after unloading to turn back. And presumably the space to set up passport checks etc in the unused (potential) international terminal might be enough for 1 departure ph. So this plan might be feasible at the UK end - though an enhancement of the DLR link to Stratford International might be needed, and/or a streamlined (travelator?) connection through to the main Stratford station. Perhaps international tickets could include one point-to-point onward journey on the domestic HS to St P or via DLR/tube to any Z1/2 destination? I presume the infrastructure for onward travel could cope with one trainload per hour. Maybe with express buses alongside the station to some key destinations too.

The main problem with this plan, however, as with other ones to enhance the range of destinations for international services, is at the non-UK end. Is there the will (and the money and the logistical possibility) of setting up - in effect - a UK border entry post, and a security screening to meet tunnel requirements, at every one of the stations at the non-UK end? I imagine these services would be less viable if each of them only served a single destination; but is 3 or 4 border set-ups per route a goer?

 

[James Finch]

I've suggested a possible way to convert most of the arrivals area at St Pancras into additional departure space in St Pancras International departure hall - one potential solution for overcrowding.

With this being a completely separate departure hall to the existing used by Eurostar, this would probably be used by other operators (or a collection of other operators).

With only one arrival and departure an hour, I think the Stratford layout is sufficient for those services to reverse there without needing to go on to St P after unloading to turn back. And presumably the space to set up passport checks etc in the unused (potential) international terminal might be enough for 1 departure ph. So this plan might be feasible at the UK end - though an enhancement of the DLR link to Stratford International might be needed, and/or a streamlined (travelator?) connection through to the main Stratford station. Perhaps international tickets could include one point-to-point onward journey on the domestic HS to St P or via DLR/tube to any Z1/2 destination? I presume the infrastructure for onward travel could cope with one trainload per hour. Maybe with express buses alongside the station to some key destinations too.

The main problem with this plan, however, as with other ones to enhance the range of destinations for international services, is at the non-UK end. Is there the will (and the money and the logistical possibility) of setting up - in effect - a UK border entry post, and a security screening to meet tunnel requirements, at every one of the stations at the non-UK end? I imagine these services would be less viable if each of them only served a single destination; but is 3 or 4 border set-ups per route a goer?

Is it even possible to terminate international services at Stratford International? Surely some trackwork would be needed for trains to be able to cross from, say, the Up Main to Platform 1? (From looking at track/signalling diagrams, only the domestic platforms can terminate using the crossovers on the country end)

Any other international terminus situation would surely use P4 (Up line) for arrivals, then run to a spare platform at STP (during which the train could be cleaned), and then back to P1 (Down line) to pick up passengers?

This is all ignoring the border/facilities issues, which could be fixed with a bit of expensive (and disruptive) construction...

The connection between could be fixed by joining the two stations together (some proposals for Crossrail 2's potential Phase 2 to Grays has suggested this in the same way as Liverpool St/Moorgate on EL)

 

[AlbertBeale]

With only one arrival and departure an hour, I think the Stratford layout is sufficient for those services to reverse there without needing to go on to St P after unloading to turn back. And presumably the space to set up passport checks etc in the unused (potential) international terminal might be enough for 1 departure ph. So this plan might be feasible at the UK end - though an enhancement of the DLR link to Stratford International might be needed, and/or a streamlined (travelator?) connection through to the main Stratford station. Perhaps international tickets could include one point-to-point onward journey on the domestic HS to St P or via DLR/tube to any Z1/2 destination? I presume the infrastructure for onward travel could cope with one trainload per hour. Maybe with express buses alongside the station to some key destinations too.

The main problem with this plan, however, as with other ones to enhance the range of destinations for international services, is at the non-UK end. Is there the will (and the money and the logistical possibility) of setting up - in effect - a UK border entry post, and a security screening to meet tunnel requirements, at every one of the stations at the non-UK end? I imagine these services would be less viable if each of them only served a single destination; but is 3 or 4 border set-ups per route a goer?

Is it even possible to terminate international services at Stratford International? Surely some trackwork would be needed for trains to be able to cross from, say, the Up Main to Platform 1? (From looking at track/signalling diagrams, only the domestic platforms can terminate using the crossovers on the country end)

Any other international terminus situation would surely use P4 (Up line) for arrivals, then run to a spare platform at STP (during which the train could be cleaned), and then back to P1 (Down line) to pick up passengers?

This is all ignoring the border/facilities issues, which could be fixed with a bit of expensive (and disruptive) construction...

The connection between could be fixed by joining the two stations together (some proposals for Crossrail 2's potential Phase 2 to Grays has suggested this in the same way as Liverpool St/Moorgate on EL)

Yes - I think you're right. I've misinterpreted the track layout. If it's the outside platforms which are for international services (with the inside ones for domestic), then it would require an extra crossover at the country end ... otherwise, yes, there would be a need to continue to St P to reverse.

 

[CdBrux]

I've suggested a possible way to convert most of the arrivals area at St Pancras into additional departure space in St Pancras International departure hall - one potential solution for overcrowding.

With this being a completely separate departure hall to the existing used by Eurostar, this would probably be used by other operators (or a collection of other operators).

Could a separated departure hall, wherever it is either downstairs or upstairs, be dedicated first class & business?. Presumably takes less space and might free up a lot of capacity in the current area?