DB Germany more new trains

[Snow1964]

Has just been announced that 17 more ICE3 neo have been ordered, takes the total upto 90 as per framework agreement 3 years ago. (Original order was 30, then later extra 43, and now remaining 17)

Deutsche Bahn orders an additional 17 ICE 3neo trains from Siemens Mobility | Press | Company | Siemens

Siemens Mobility will deliver an additional 17 ICE 3neo trains worth around €600 million to Deutsche Bahn (DB). The ICE 3neo fleet, based on the Vela ...

press.siemens.com

Also 56 new Talgo 230 trains just been announced (23 previously announced, total now 79)

• As part of the framework contract signed in 2019 for a maximum of 100 trains.
• Extension of the order placed in 2019 for 23 trains already under production, to reach a total fleet of up to 79 trains.
• They will be the only ICE trains with full accessibility from platform height in all the train.

Deutsche Bahn confirms Talgo the largest single order of its history: 56 new Talgo 230 trains worth approximately 1,400 million euros | MarketScreener

As part of the framework contract signed in 2019 for a maximum of 100 trains. Extension of the order placed in 2019 for 23 trains already under production, to... | May 17, 2023

www.marketscreener.com

 

[popeter45]

so the ICE-L order, is that enough to replace all IC1's?
and will they all use the Talgo locomotive as thats still not proven yet and could easily become another skoda class 102

 

[superalbs]

so the ICE-L order, is that enough to replace all IC1's?
and will they all use the Talgo locomotive as thats still not proven yet and could easily become another skoda class 102

Especially as Talgo don't usually make locomotives. In fact, do they even have any locos in service in the world?

 

[Snow1964]

Especially as Talgo don't usually make locomotives. In fact, do they even have any locos in service in the world?

The press release indicated initial route would be Berlin-Amsterdam, therefore I assume they will be hauled by appropriate multi system locos.

Isn't there a 230km/h version of eurosprinter loco, (I'm sure Austria has some) but don't know if these are the plan

 

[superalbs]

The press release indicated initial route would be Berlin-Amsterdam, therefore I assume they will be hauled by appropriate multi system locos.

Isn't there a 230km/h version of eurosprinter loco, (I'm sure Austria has some) but don't know if these are the plan

Talgo are building their own locos, to my knowledge the first ones they've built for service.

 

[ac6000cw]

Who built the power cars for some of their HSR trains e.g. the Talgo 250 etc.?

 

[DanielB]

The press release indicated initial route would be Berlin-Amsterdam, therefore I assume they will be hauled by appropriate multi system locos.

They'll be hauled by NS Vectron locos initially, until the Talgo locos are delivered AFAIK.
Those Vectrons are the same as those which are used as of next year to replace the current NS class 1700s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Who built the power cars for some of their HSR trains e.g. the Talgo 250 etc.?

I think the answer to that is Bombardier in Kassel, according to Wiki (mentioned in the side panel).

Renfe Class 130 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So that equates to Alstom today.
Generally, for high speed power cars, Talgo partnered with Bombardier, and CAF with (old) Alstom.

 

[jamesontheroad]

This bit of the announcement caught my eye.

Der ICE L: Einsatz in ganz Deutschland

Der 230 Stundenkilometer schnelle ICE L wird ab Oktober 2024 erstmals zwischen Berlin und Amsterdam unterwegs sein. Mit dieser zusätzlichen Bestellung weiterer Züge wird der ICE L dann nicht nur auf einzelnen Strecken, sondern überall in Deutschland zum Einsatz kommen. Der ICE L bietet darüber hinaus mit kürzeren Wagen, einem neuen Beleuchtungskonzept sowie dem neuen Innenraumdesign ein deutlich verbessertes Raumgefühl. Dank Mehrsystemlokomotive ist zudem der zeitsparende Einsatz im grenzüberschreitenden Verkehr möglich. Das wird künftig auch Verbindungen nach Dänemark (Kopenhagen) und Österreich (Wien) umfassen.

Translated:

In the future, this will also include connections to Denmark (Copenhagen) and Austria (Vienna).

We know that DSB have bought essentially the same product for Copenhagen - Hamburg. So this text could be referring to DSB services or - possibly - a scenario where both DSB and DB rolling stock is using on the Copenhagen - Hamburg corridor.

 

[duesselmartin]

Certainly not often that DB gives such a big order to a non-German competitor and that before the initial order is delivered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that this will close to get rid of the IC brand. To me this is diluting the ICE brand away from high speed, presumably though this is so they can up the fares to ICE level?

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Certainly not often that DB gives such a big order to a non-German competitor and that before the initial order is delivered.

It does seem quite brave of them to extend the order before even the carriages have started testing, and before a locomotive has even been built. However, I don't see any other options for purchasing this type of train. Siemens is busy building ICE multiple units, and neither Bombardier nor Stadler offer single deck coaching stock.

Interesting that this will close to get rid of the IC brand. To me this is diluting the ICE brand away from high speed, presumably though this is so they can up the fares to ICE level?

I wouldn't say so. The IC brand will continue with the IC2 sets and Stadler KISS 4 car and 6 car units.

The backbone of the modern ICE fleet is the ICE4 with a maximum speed of 250km/h, so barely more then 10mph faster than these. They comply with ICE quality standards include a seated restaurant car.

It's true that most existing IC connections will be upgraded to ICE, with the new IC rolling stock focusing on expanding long distance services to smaller cities and addition routes. However, the vast majority of long distance tickets sold are advance tickets priced according to demand, so to see it some sort of conspiracy to introduce hidden fare rises doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Trainbike46]

It does seem quite brave of them to extend the order before even the carriages have started testing, and before a locomotive has even been built. However, I don't see any other options for purchasing this type of train. Siemens is busy building ICE multiple units, and neither Bombardier nor Stadler offer single deck coaching stock.

Stadler does offer single-deck coaching stock: https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail-all/wagen/57/

Though it makes a lot more sense to order more of the same that's already on order

 

[bahnause]

As a state-owned enterprise, DB cannot simply place orders. The conditions of competition according to the WTO must be observed (invitation to tender).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The backbone of the modern ICE fleet is the ICE4 with a maximum speed of 250km/h, so barely more then 10mph faster than these. They comply with ICE quality standards include a seated restaurant car.

Though it's worth noting that the ICE4 was originally developed as the ICx and was to have been an IC, not ICE, train.

 

[Trainbike46]

As a state-owned enterprise, DB cannot simply place orders. The conditions of competition according to the WTO must be observed (invitation to tender).

clearly, but the situation here is (presumably) a tender was used for the original ICE-L (and ICE3neo) orders, and those included options for more trains that are now getting used. It makes more sense to use those options and keep a more uniform fleet, compared to starting over with a new tender

 

[duesselmartin]

As a state-owned enterprise, DB cannot simply place orders. The conditions of competition according to the WTO must be observed (invitation to tender).

Oddly enough there has been a pattern to certain suppliers by state railways in the past. Be it DB, SNCF or FS.

As to coaching Stock. Siemens also has the Railjet platform on offer.

 

[DanNCL]

I’m guessing they’ve assumed Vienna based on the mention of Austria. If replacing 101-hauled sets the ICE-Ls would be running to Graz and Klagenfurt, not to Vienna.
If the ICE-Ls are to run to Vienna they’d be replacing ICE-Ts.

 

[Austriantrain]

I’m guessing they’ve assumed Vienna based on the mention of Austria. If replacing 101-hauled sets the ICE-Ls would be running to Graz and Klagenfurt, not to Vienna.
If the ICE-Ls are to run to Vienna they’d be replacing ICE-Ts.

There is a graphic on the German DB press release which specifically includes the line to Vienna.

From the proposed services shown there and the numbers ordered, it seems to me that the L is meant to replace the T:

Milliardeninvestition: Deutsche Bahn kauft 73 neue ICE

www.deutschebahn.com

On the line to Klagenfurt, ICE4 will run; the direct service to Graz will likely not survive in its present form after the Koralmbahn opens (it will be Graz via Klagenfurt).

 

[popeter45]

There is a graphic on the German DB press release which specifically includes the line to Vienna.

From the proposed services shown there and the numbers ordered, it seems to me that the L is meant to replace the T:

Milliardeninvestition: Deutsche Bahn kauft 73 neue ICE

www.deutschebahn.com

On the line to Klagenfurt, ICE4 will run; the direct service to Graz will likely not survive in its present form after the Koralmbahn opens (it will be Graz via Klagenfurt).

somebody should also tell whoever drew the map that the train to copenhagen doesnt go via the frerry anymore

 

[Austriantrain]

somebody should also tell whoever drew the map that the train to copenhagen doesnt go via the frerry anymore

I think that line relates to the Fehmarnbelt fixed link.

 

[Snow1964]

We know that DSB have bought essentially the same product for Copenhagen - Hamburg. So this text could be referring to DSB services or - possibly - a scenario where both DSB and DB rolling stock is using on the Copenhagen - Hamburg corridor.

Presumably via the Fehmarnbelt immersed tunnel that is now under construction, and rebuilt line from Rodby to Nykobing

 

[popeter45]

I think that line relates to the Fehmarnbelt fixed link.

i know but as not set to be opened till 2029 would have though they would have shown the current route?

 

[Austriantrain]

i know but as not set to be opened till 2029 would have though they would have shown the current route?

I think it is very likely to take that long to deliver the final ICE L, so they might well not start running to Copenhagen before the new link opens.

 

[popeter45]

I think it is very likely to take that long to deliver the final ICE L, so they might well not start running to Copenhagen before the new link opens.

the DSB ones are set to enter service 2025 i belive?, assumeing DB are doing a OBB4011 here and just listing all Talgo230 as ICE-L

 

[Austriantrain]

the DSB ones are set to enter service 2025 i belive?, assumeing DB are doing a OBB4011 here and just listing all Talgo230 as ICE-L

The press release and thus the map is not about the DSB sets, but about the second series of 56 sets ordered by DB yesterday.

And once the fixed link opens, there will surely be more services to Copenhagen and more rolling stock needed.

 

[43096]

It does seem quite brave of them to extend the order before even the carriages have started testing, and before a locomotive has even been built. However, I don't see any other options for purchasing this type of train.

I am astonished at the decision to go for the untried Talgo locos when Siemens offer a 230km/h Vectron as a much lower risk option. But what would keep us amused without periodic outbreaks of Gresley/Stanier Syndrome?

That said, there is quite an order backlog at München Allach now.

 

[DanielB]

I think it is very likely to take that long to deliver the final ICE L, so they might well not start running to Copenhagen before the new link opens.

The maps also have a legend: solid dark blue lines are cross border operations with ICE L and ICE3neo as of 2024, the dotted dark blue lines are planned cross border operations without a fixed start date yet.

 

[ABB125]

There's not much information available as far as I can see about the new Talgo locomotives. However, I found a website that said they have a maximum power output of 3600kW. This seems remarkably low. Yes, I know that the new carriages are supposed to be lighter than anything else, but even so the 101s which these will effectively be replacing have 6400kW.
Am I being overly concerned, or is there a genuine potential issue here with a lack of power? For comparison, a 9 car class 801 has 4500kW on electric, and weighs about the same (not sure if that includes the locomotive). Or, for a class 800 with another 20 tons of engines, 3500kW on diesel.

 

[popeter45]

There's not much information available as far as I can see about the new Talgo locomotives. However, I found a website that said they have a maximum power output of 3600kW. This seems remarkably low. Yes, I know that the new carriages are supposed to be lighter than anything else, but even so the 101s which these will effectively be replacing have 6400kW.
Am I being overly concerned, or is there a genuine potential issue here with a lack of power? For comparison, a 9 car class 801 has 4500kW on electric, and weighs about the same (not sure if that includes the locomotive). Or, for a class 800 with another 20 tons of engines, 3500kW on diesel.

add in the fact 800's cant do beyond 160km/h on diesel and this locomotive is suposed to be doing 230km/h on that power and yea wonder if the Talgo locomotives are just a requirement by Talgo for a reduced carriages pricetag?, get them shown off to the world as they havent got anybody else wanting them?
considering they will already be on vectrons as the loconmotives are delayed (are any actually built yet?), wonder if DB will just cancel them whenever possible?