DB to buy Grand Central

[BOSCH]

I do hope that Ian Yeowart does have an involvement in the business again!! Was always a much better company with him at the helm!

Gonna be interesting methinks,unless TC bags a transfer home to ATW in the near future !!!!hock:hock:hock:

 

[IanXC]

To replace with what that can run at 125mph? 67s are a no go due to their abysmal route availability.

That said, a common HST pool with XC might alleviate some overcrowding problems.

Scrap the Bradford service and use 180s on Sunderland?

Or keep (is it) 180102 currently being put back in service, and displace a HST set?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 180s can't work on XC services (due to clearance problems at Birmingham New Street)

Well the 175s don't have any problems.
What's out of gauge?

 

[tbtc]

Well the 175s don't have any problems.
What's out of gauge?

I'm not certain, but I've seen it quoted by respected posters a few times...

There's also the issue of whether the handful of 180s could keep up with the acceleration of Voyagers I guess.

Regardless, the figures quoted are a huge amount of money just to inherit the lease on a few trains for a few years.

 

[route:oxford]

Well the 175s don't have any problems.
What's out of gauge?

According to Wiki (which I appreciate can't always be relied upon):-

Class 175 - 2.73 metres wide
Class 180 - 2.80 metres wide

Cars are the same length 23.71 metres or 23.03 metres for centre cars.

 

[Minilad]

I'm not certain, but I've seen it quoted by respected posters a few times...

There's also the issue of whether the handful of 180s could keep up with the acceleration of Voyagers I guess.

Regardless, the figures quoted are a huge amount of money just to inherit the lease on a few trains for a few years.

Not to mention the costs involved in train crew training

 

[northwichcat]

The 175s did have gauge clearance issues when first introduced and clearance was difficult to obtain so they were restricted to the following lines: Holyhead to Chester, Llandudno Junction to Llandundo, Chester-Warrington-Manchester, Chester-Altrincham-Manchester, Chester-Crewe-Birmingham, Manchester Airport-Oxenholme, Preston-Blackpool North, Oxenholme-Windermere, Carnforth-Barrow and Manchester-Wigan-Preston. Given that there wasn't a huge fleet of 175s and there were clearance issues not getting clearance for every line made sense.

Someone said something about the steps by the doors being adjusted before they could go down to South Wales. I don't know if there is any truth in that.

 

[Masboroughlad]

Back to the Arriva buying GC theme. What bothers me is that DB run excellent inter-city services whereas Arriva's in the UK are dire. When will we see (if ever) some of the German flair over here. At the moment it seems that DB just want to sweat our railway's assets and milk the cash cow at our service's expense!

Still gets me that the German National operator runs a lot of what was British Rail. Seems wrong to me.

 

[43067]

can we expect another livery change or an arriva/DB viynl somewhere on the current livery ala First Hull Trains. I just hope they don't displace the HST's as part of the takeover.

 

[Lampshade]

can we expect another livery change or an arriva/DB viynl somewhere on the current livery ala First Hull Trains. I just hope they don't displace the HST's as part of the takeover.

Doubt it, we've not seen any change from Chiltern or XC.

 

[jon0844]

Still gets me that the German National operator runs a lot of what was British Rail. Seems wrong to me.

We're part of Europe, and there's nothing to stop us doing the same abroad. We have all the same opportunities as they do.

In fact, Stagecoach and First have foreign operations don't they - and they're still British (for now).

 

[WestCoast]

Back to the Arriva buying GC theme. What bothers me is that DB run excellent inter-city services whereas Arriva's in the UK are dire. When will we see (if ever) some of the German flair over here. At the moment it seems that DB just want to sweat our railway's assets and milk the cash cow at our service's expense!

When DB took over Arriva, expectations seemed to change. I'd argue that essentially Arriva is still the same company. Arriva has nothing to do with DB in their home country.

The DfT micro-manages franchised operators anyway, it's not like DB can do anything about that. They are running the franchise to what the DfT specified to Arriva. The big difference with Grand Central is that DB will have more control.

Northern Rail is ran by a partnership between Netherlands Railways and Serco. Does Northern Rail bare any resemblance to NS services in the Netherlands? No, not really. Their network is so very different (funding, ethos, rolling stock), it wouldn't be possible to repeat that in the UK.

Still gets me that the German National operator runs a lot of what was British Rail. Seems wrong to me.

If it's any consolation, the old British Arriva did run some regional services in Germany. These services were sold to the Italian rail operator upon the takeover. Some of them were quite good too!

You've essentially got European rail operators or what were British bus companies (founded after deregulation in most cases) to choose from. Virgin being the major high-profile exception (and Stagecoach are involved behind the scenes).

 

[ainsworth74]

In fact, Stagecoach and First have foreign operations don't they - and they're still British (for now).

Stagecoach have operations in the USA and Canada (buses/coaches) whilst First have operations in the USA, Canada and Ireland (buses/coaches) and a part share in providing rail services between Denmark and Southern Sweden.

 

[WestCoast]

We're part of Europe, and there's nothing to stop us doing the same abroad. We have all the same opportunities as they do

Indeed, National Express are looking at German regional rail franchises awarded by regional administrations (they will compete against DB Regio and other private operators for those franchises). The market is open there for regional services.

I think Grand Central is a very different operator to WSMR - the Sunderland to Kings Cross route has a solid business case. Bradford to London, I am not so sure about - has it improved in terms of passenger numbers recently?

 

[driver9000]

There's also the issue of whether the handful of 180s could keep up with the acceleration of Voyagers I guess.

A 180 that is running well can accelerate as fast as a 22x. I seem to remember the quoted 0-125mph time of a 180 being around 3 minutes (from the training film). I have caught up with 221s with a 180.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that an OA operator that is owned by a larger company that operates a franchise can't operate its fleet under a common pool. I thought the fleets had to be kept separate.

 

[swt_passenger]

Doubt it, we've not seen any change from Chiltern or XC.

Amazing how people seem to almost hope for a livery change. None of the British passenger operators have yet been changed to anything 'DB like' at all, and the various press releases have usually included a statement that they wouldn't change anyway.

In this case the wording in the Arriva press release quoted earlier in this thread was:

Meanwhile Grand Central will remain a self-contained business with its own unique brand and identity.

Say no more...

 

[ainsworth74]

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that an OA operator that is owned by a larger company that operates a franchise can't operate its fleet under a common pool. I thought the fleets had to be kept separate.

I'm not sure about OAOs and TOCs sharing a pool of stock but I seem to remember that the SRA/DfT were never very happen with VXC and VWC sharing their rolling stock between them in the early days of those franchises (though I could be wrong on this). Certainly it wouldn't surprise me if there was a requirement to keep fleets separate even if it might be of operational benefit to combine them.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure it already came up in discussion a while back that FGW and FHT wouldn't be allowed to pool their 180s, although the maintenance can (and does) take place at the same depot. Looks very like the work on the two fleets must remain separately accounted for.

In a slightly similar vein Chiltern ran into big problems with the DfT, basically for allowing WSMR services to cover some of their own franchised station calls. Over the course of a couple of timetables it all had to be unwound and they ended up being fined anyway.

 

[driver9000]

I'm sure it already came up in discussion a while back that FGW and FHT wouldn't be allowed to pool their 180s, although the maintenance can (and does) take place at the same depot. Looks very like the work on the two fleets must remain separately accounted for.

That could be why I have it in my mind about separate fleets then.

 

[ainsworth74]

Arriva (boo! shame we've lost GC) HSTs were going same way as the EC sets.

It's still Grand Central as the Arriva press release informed that there would be no change in branding.

 

[Penske666]

Good stuff only seen a newspaper about the takeover. I love the GC branding - got way more flair than EC sets

 

[MCR247]

I'm not sure about OAOs and TOCs sharing a pool of stock but I seem to remember that the SRA/DfT were never very happen with VXC and VWC sharing their rolling stock between them in the early days of those franchises (though I could be wrong on this). Certainly it wouldn't surprise me if there was a requirement to keep fleets separate even if it might be of operational benefit to combine them.

That why we have the mess that we call VXC and VWC now! Was good at the time though!

 

[HH]

There's a difference between an OAO and TOC run by the same company sharing fleets, and two TOCs.

The problem with TOCs generally comes from the ROSCOs who see it as an opportunity to reduce their liabilities (e.g. re fleet availability).

 

[tbtc]

A 180 that is running well can accelerate as fast as a 22x. I seem to remember the quoted 0-125mph time of a 180 being around 3 minutes (from the training film). I have caught up with 221s with a 180

Cheers, didn't realise

 

[Bridge189]

Didn't the DFT a while ago suggest GC gives it's shortened HSTs to EC for the proposed extra Harrogate services in exchange for the EC 180s currently with NT but they refused? I can personally see Bradford interchange going the journey very soon under DB especially when sunderland is profitable (apparently).

 

[tbtc]

Didn't the DFT a while ago suggest GC gives it's shortened HSTs to EC for the proposed extra Harrogate services in exchange for the EC 180s currently with NT but they refused? I can personally see Bradford interchange going the journey very soon under DB especially when sunderland is profitable (apparently).

One point not yet made in this thread (?) is that being under the "umbrella" of DB might help the "profitability" of the Bradford and Sunderland services, since the "back room" costs can be spread thinner.

Every little helps...

 

[WillPS]

Seems fairly obvious to me what's going on - Arriva want in on the Open Access market, with ECML being half of their proposals. Rather than try to obtain paths from scratch, why not buy up an existing operator who has services which look unlikely to become profitable - suggest changes to those paths (move towards GNER plans).

 

[anthony263]

Seems fairly obvious to me what's going on - Arriva want in on the Open Access market, with ECML being half of their proposals. Rather than try to obtain paths from scratch, why not buy up an existing operator who has services which look unlikely to become profitable - suggest changes to those paths (move towards GNER plans).

Sunderland service is profitable thoug, the Bradford service isnt at the moment although passengers numbers are supposed to be rising

 

[WillPS]

Keep Sunderlands, use Bradford paths as base to launch GNER.

 

[WatcherZero]

One point not yet made in this thread (?) is that being under the "umbrella" of DB might help the "profitability" of the Bradford and Sunderland services, since the "back room" costs can be spread thinner.

Every little helps...

Unfortunatley not, they say their HQ and staff will remain in York and it will remain a seperate operating company. Doesnt mean they wont be able to use a larger bargaining position in procurement though they may fear competition scrutiny.