DC Class 455/456/458/465/66 discussion topic.

[4REP]

I thought it might be good to open a new discussion on these classes as they will be replaced over the next few years (classes 455-458) and the future of networkers emu and that these classes future are uncertain.

Anything can be discussed about them on future or withdrawal etc. Possible transfers to reformation conversions etc etc.

Please no 707s to be mentioned as they have a new home.

 

[Doomotron]

Scrapheap, scrapheap, Southern or scrapheap, scrapheap, scrapheap.

 

[swt_passenger]

Scrapheap, scrapheap, Southern or scrapheap, scrapheap, scrapheap.

You get top marks. Named that tune in one. Scrap ‘em all.

But even if the 458s are reprieved, there’s already speculation about them in a dedicated thread started a few days ago: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-of-class-458s.203623/

 

[Energy]

Scrap them all (oh and change the title of the thread to 466, the class 66 still has lots of time left)

 

[4REP]

I probably agree too but this thread could include withdrawal dates etc.

 

[Domh245]

The withdrawals, including dates, is probably best left for a thread in the Traction & Rolling Stock subforum (not speculative) nearer the actual time.

 

[D365]

I probably agree too but this thread could include withdrawal dates etc.

That would go against the raison d'être for this subforum...

 

[rdlover777]

rumor has it that the 458s are heading for the breakers next month

 

[JonathanH]

rumor has it that the 458s are heading for the breakers next month

That doesn't appear to be a very realistic rumour. Are you suggesting that 458s are already surplus to requirements?

 

[rdlover777]

That doesn't appear to be a very realistic rumour. Are you suggesting that 458s are already surplus to requirements?

from what i hear, they're getting scrapped because they're non standard

 

[JonathanH]

from what i hear, they're getting scrapped because they're non standard

Maybe, but not next month.

Besides, they need to release 707s to Southeastern at some point, possibly before the 458s can be taken out of service.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Would refurbished networkers be an improvement over the 313s on the south coast... Yes! But can Southern manage to get something else instead I hope so

 

[Doomotron]

Would refurbished networkers be an improvement over the 313s on the south coast... Yes! But can Southern manage to get something else instead I hope so

Actually, I think I'd rather have the 313s. They're more reliable than Networkers and the armrests and large bays are nice.

 

[43096]

rumor has it that the 458s are heading for the breakers next month

Really. With just one replacement train so far even delivered with none accepted and crew training not started, I find that very hard/impossible to believe.

 

[brad465]

Actually, I think I'd rather have the 313s. They're more reliable than Networkers and the armrests and large bays are nice.

Should we add 313 to the title? Like them or not the 313s days must be very limited, given the majority of the overall fleet has already been scrapped and they date from the 70s. If Southern went for a 455 replacement soon (which I think they should) they could have one fleet for both operations if gauge clearance is possible for such a fleet in both areas.

 

[Domh245]

Should we add 313 to the title? Like them or not the 313s days must be very limited, given the majority of the overall fleet has already been scrapped and they date from the 70s. If Southern went for a 455 replacement soon (which I think they should) they could have one fleet for both operations if gauge clearance is possible for such a fleet in both areas.

I fully expect that both the Southern 455s and 313s won't survive the next franchise, but their withdrawal is (probably) around 4 years away. The next southern franchise was due to begin in 2021, but between the Williams review (ha, remember that?) and COVID it'll inevitably be delayed. Depending then on what they do, it'll be a few more years before replacement.

 

[Mikey C]

Actually, I think I'd rather have the 313s. They're more reliable than Networkers and the armrests and large bays are nice.

The interiors could be changed, after all the Coastway 313s are massively nicer inside than the original 313 interior. And of course the 465s have a toilet!

 

[Doomotron]

The interiors could be changed, after all the Coastway 313s are massively nicer inside than the original 313 interior. And of course the 465s have a toilet!

But would Southern want to refurbish a fleet that's barely got any life left it in? The 313s still are here because they're easy to maintain and cheap to lease, and I suspect the 465s are neither.

 

[Mikey C]

But would Southern want to refurbish a fleet that's barely got any life left it in? The 313s still are here because they're easy to maintain and cheap to lease, and I suspect the 465s are neither.

The 465s are 15 years newer than the 313s. The BREL/ABB ones have been retractioned as well, I'm sure they could easily do another 10 years on the south coast

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Having travelled during peak, the 313s as a 3 car are not sufficient, they are slow, noisey and badly ventilated! They deserve new or nearly new stock on that route Brighton to Portsmouth is a fair old distance so a train that has toilets, decent seats and good acceleration is a must.

None of these fits the description of a 465 or 466.

I hope they end up with something more practical in the future

 

[swt_passenger]

Having travelled during peak, the 313s as a 3 car are not sufficient, they are slow, noisey and badly ventilated! They deserve new or nearly new stock on that route Brighton to Portsmouth is a fair old distance so a train that has toilets, decent seats and good acceleration is a must.

There are plenty of opportunities to change on and off faster 377s on the same route, you’re only guaranteed a 313 if you use the all stations stopper. Not everyone’s travelling end to end either.

 

[brad465]

Having travelled during peak, the 313s as a 3 car are not sufficient, they are slow, noisey and badly ventilated! They deserve new or nearly new stock on that route Brighton to Portsmouth is a fair old distance so a train that has toilets, decent seats and good acceleration is a must.

None of these fits the description of a 465 or 466.

I hope they end up with something more practical in the future

I don't see Networkers going to the South Coast, but they actually do have good acceleration and toilets (although yes ventilation is an issue).

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Could the Juniper 458 be suited to the current Southern 313 services?

In my opinion, the class 458 should be used on the Southern class 313 services, so:

Brighton - Eastbourne
Brighton - Littlehampton
Brighton - Bognor Regis
Brighton - Hove
Brighton - West Worthing
Brighton - Seaford
Littlehampton - Bognor Regis
Littlehampton - Portsmouth & Southsea
Barnham - Bognor Regis

The Southern 313 are 17 in total, with the whole 458s being 36.

With that being said, 19 458s would be redundant as the other 17 458s would be allocated to the 313 routes (so East and West Coastway Lines). With that being said, the 19 surplus 458s could be used on the South London Metro routes replacing 19 out of a total of 46 class 455s.

Therefore, the class 458s should, and would also be used on the Southern class 455 services, so:

London - Sutton (via Norbury)
London - Epsom Downs
London - Coulsdon Town (via Sydenham)
London - Caterham (via Peckham Rye and Norbury)
London - Beckenham Junction

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Could the Juniper 458 be suited to the current Southern 313 services?

In my opinion, the class 458 should be used on the Southern class 313 services, so:

Brighton - Eastbourne
Brighton - Littlehampton
Brighton - Bognor Regis
Brighton - Hove
Brighton - West Worthing
Brighton - Seaford
Littlehampton - Bognor Regis
Littlehampton - Portsmouth & Southsea
Barnham - Bognor Regis

The Southern 313 are 17 in total, with the whole 458s being 36.

With that being said, 19 458s would be redundant as the other 17 458s would be allocated to the 313 routes (so East and West Coastway Lines). With that being said, the 19 surplus 458s could be used on the South London Metro routes replacing 19 out of a total of 46 class 455s.

Therefore, the class 458s should, and would also be used on the Southern class 455 services, so:

London - Sutton (via Norbury)
London - Epsom Downs
London - Coulsdon Town (via Sydenham)
London - Caterham (via Peckham Rye and Norbury)
London - Beckenham Junction

Does that not sound a bit unnecessarily complex though? I imagine 65x odd new 4/5 carriage trains, quite possibly Aventras for a simple all Bombardier fleet would do the job.

 

[4REP]

Could the Juniper 458 be suited to the current Southern 313 services?

In my opinion, the class 458 should be used on the Southern class 313 services, so:

Brighton - Eastbourne
Brighton - Littlehampton
Brighton - Bognor Regis
Brighton - Hove
Brighton - West Worthing
Brighton - Seaford
Littlehampton - Bognor Regis
Littlehampton - Portsmouth & Southsea
Barnham - Bognor Regis

The Southern 313 are 17 in total, with the whole 458s being 36.

With that being said, 19 458s would be redundant as the other 17 458s would be allocated to the 313 routes (so East and West Coastway Lines). With that being said, the 19 surplus 458s could be used on the South London Metro routes replacing 19 out of a total of 46 class 455s.

Therefore, the class 458s should, and would also be used on the Southern class 455 services, so:

London - Sutton (via Norbury)
London - Epsom Downs
London - Coulsdon Town (via Sydenham)
London - Caterham (via Peckham Rye and Norbury)
London - Beckenham Junction

I think there are 19 x 313s

 

[4REP]

Could the Juniper 458 be suited to the current Southern 313 services?

In my opinion, the class 458 should be used on the Southern class 313 services, so:

Brighton - Eastbourne
Brighton - Littlehampton
Brighton - Bognor Regis
Brighton - Hove
Brighton - West Worthing
Brighton - Seaford
Littlehampton - Bognor Regis
Littlehampton - Portsmouth & Southsea
Barnham - Bognor Regis

The Southern 313 are 17 in total, with the whole 458s being 36.

With that being said, 19 458s would be redundant as the other 17 458s would be allocated to the 313 routes (so East and West Coastway Lines). With that being said, the 19 surplus 458s could be used on the South London Metro routes replacing 19 out of a total of 46 class 455s.

Therefore, the class 458s should, and would also be used on the Southern class 455 services, so:

London - Sutton (via Norbury)
London - Epsom Downs
London - Coulsdon Town (via Sydenham)
London - Caterham (via Peckham Rye and Norbury)
London - Beckenham Junction

I think the 30x 379s should be drafted over to southern to indirectly replace 313s.
The 36 458s should directly replace 36 455s with the surplus 379s cascading 377s for Coast way services. (30 x 377 with 10 going to metro to make up replacing the final 10 x 455 stock and that leaves 20 times 377 for Coast way and a few spare)

 

[4REP]

I think there are 19 x 313s

In theory 46 x 455s can be replaced entirely by the 458s if diagrams were possibly tweaked and capacity gained by having 5 coaches instead of 4 or the 10 377 can be converted to metro or even move the 313 s to metro in 9 x 6 car formation with 1 spare instead of 10 cascaded 377s (from being cascaded by 379s)which can be used to expand capacity.

 

[4REP]

There are also the 456s to possibly use but may be a dead end as the same as 466s with no gangway ends etc. And being slightly younger in age as 455s.
I think the answer would be to utilise 379s from GA

 

[JonathanH]

The 36 458s should directly replace 36 455s

Are you going to shorten them to 4-car to fit Beckenham Junction, Caterham, Coulsdon Town and Tulse Hill?

In theory 46 x 455s can be replaced entirely by the 458s if diagrams were possibly tweaked and capacity gained by having 5 coaches instead of 4 or the 10 377 can be converted to metro or even move the 313 s to metro in 9 x 6 car formation with 1 spare instead of 10 cascaded 377s (from being cascaded by 379s)which can be used to expand capacity.

Your maths doesn't really work.

I appreciate that 36x5 = 180 46x4 = 184.

But, if the 4+3+3 formations currently make up 12 trains, 24 of those 458s release 12 4-car 377s and 24 3-car 377s. I'm not really sure how you best use the 12 4-car 377s, 29 3-car 377s and 12 remaining 458s to directly replace the 46 4-car 455.

 

[43096]

I think the 30x 379s should be drafted over to southern to indirectly replace 313s.
The 36 458s should directly replace 36 455s with the surplus 379s cascading 377s for Coast way services. (30 x 377 with 10 going to metro to make up replacing the final 10 x 455 stock and that leaves 20 times 377 for Coast way and a few spare)

You’d be better sending the 379s to Great Northern and then cascading the 387s south of the river.