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Dear Railway Neighbour.... What3Words

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uglymonkey

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Got the usual letter through the door yesterday as they are doing some tree tidying over December at the end of my road. All fine, dates and times, nearest postcode, sorry fo the inconvience etc. Except this time in the information there is a "What3Words" column and three random words ( Like a code) attached to each worksite information. Never come across these before, anyone know what they are and how they relate ? There is nothing else in the letter that refers to them and I hadn't seen them before.

Thanks
 
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skyhigh

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Quite a lot of previous discussion here which may be of interest:

 

zwk500

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In brief, what3words is a website that gives a supposedly unique reference to a grid square anywhere in the world. There's an app for your phone as well. I think the grid squares are 5x5m but might be wrong.

There is a separate discussion about the accuracy of the positioning system and in the utility if the algorithm that generates the 3 word reference.
 

AVK17

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In brief, what3words is a website that gives a supposedly unique reference to a grid square anywhere in the world. There's an app for your phone as well. I think the grid squares are 5x5m but might be wrong.

There is a separate discussion about the accuracy of the positioning system and in the utility if the algorithm that generates the 3 word reference.
The squares are 3m by 3m.

Personally I have quite a few concerns over the idea but Network Rail seems to be adopting it very enthusiastically across the whole company.

According to What3Words, if there were two squares theoretically randomly called Rail.Forum.Post and Rail.Forums.Post they say that their algorithm is clever enough to recognise the similarity and assign them to not be in the same continent, so it should be obvious which one is meant. But I’ve come across some very similar names - both plurals and homonyms - not just in the same country but in the same county.
 

plugwash

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what3words is a system that assigns groups of 3 words to grid squares across the world, each grid square has a unique compbination of words (this is not in dispute). The system generally uses shorter more well-known words for major urban areas and longer less familiar words outside that.

The locations are assigned words by a fixed algorithm, this means that the app can work offline (good) but it also means there is no scope for improving the scheme, they are stuck with trying to defend and market it the way it is despite what flaws it has come up with. The algorithm has been reverse engineered, but legal threats were used to shut down the project that reverse engineered it.

The problem is that many of the words in their wordlist are confusingly similar, they claimed that similar sounding locations will be far apart, but analysis by third parties based on the reverse engineered algorithm have revealed many cases where confusingly similar words are used for locations close to each other. Particularly in cities where a smaller wordlist is used.

The company is also pouring money down the drain. Their financial statements for 2021 quote a turnover of £444382 and a loss before taxation of £43821657. In other words to even break even they would have to increase revenues about a hundredfold without increasing expenses.
 

TreacleMiller

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I've used it twice in emergency situations, on both occasions it sped up safety critical communications and got emergency services to the scene, including a coast guard helicopter.


It works.

Two out of three bring similar won't matter.
 

uglymonkey

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Well.. I didn't know that !! - Thanks for all the replies - learn something new everyday !
 

DelW

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Personally I have quite a few concerns over the idea but Network Rail seems to be adopting it very enthusiastically across the whole company.
While W3W might have benefits for worldwide use, IMO it would be a great pity if it were to supplant grid references for British locations, which is all NR need consider.

Grid references are well established, entirely transparent in their derivation, and usable with paper maps. They do not require any connectivity, and don't rely on opaque algorithms from a commercially driven offshore tech company.
 

growse

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A proprietary system "owned" by a failing company that causes more problems than it solves? No thanks. The emergency services have had problems: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797

The fundamental problem with using "words" as unique labels, is that language is inherently contextual. We work out which word someone else is using based on the *context* that word is in. That's how we don't usually get confused between different words that sound similar in every-day communiction. If you remove that context, and throw in a poor quality radio / telephone link, you're just asking for confusion and trouble. The NATO phonetic alphabet was put together with much care and consideration for exactly this problem. Unfortunately, some people think they know better.

There are much better, open, royalty-free systems available (OS Grid refs, LatLng, PlusCodes etc.)
 

zwk500

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I've used it twice in emergency situations, on both occasions it sped up safety critical communications and got emergency services to the scene, including a coast guard helicopter.


It works.

Two out of three bring similar won't matter.
It works, but it's not infallible. Giving a grid reference, post code, or other identifying feature in conjunction with the W3W reference is good practice. I've seen reports of references that differ only by 1 letter from each other being separated by less than 100m.
 

rob.rjt

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How many people do you think are capable of giving a grid reference to the nearest 100m?
Especially without a map. I'm not sure there is a free app that will give me a postcode or OSGB grid reference just based on GPS location.
 

chipbury

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The only way Yodel can find our house is by using W3W as they claim our postcode is in a different village. The postcode does seem to work for all other delivery comapnies and sat-navs though...
 

357

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Also worth adding that in an Android update recently there is now a setting to send gps coordinates and I think medical info the moment you call 999, last time I called 999 my phone screen confirmed it had send the info through
 

BluePenguin

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Incidentally, one postcode usually applies to many properties in a wide area.
That is incorrect, post codes are specific to one street and one street only. In my case, our post code only applies to half the street we live on.

A far cry from a wide area. I have no idea where you got that impression. Perhaps you are confused with American zip codes which are as you desribe?
 

zwk500

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Along the corridor and up the stairs, 1963 if my memory serves me right. My grandson learned to navigate with a compass and paper map at school, and is very keen on it.
I was taught Grid References off an OS map in school as well, but that was before smartphones were completely ubiquitous. (2008ish)
 

bleeder4

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It has its uses, but the problem is when people used it to try and get help if they're stuck up a mountain. There have been so many cases when people have given W3W locations over the phone and rescue reams have gone to the wrong location. There are lots of similarly sounding words that are pinned to locations miles apart. For example - Flames.Shirt.Gasp and Flame.Shirt.Gasp are 48 miles apart.
 

JBuchananGB

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streetmap.co.uk has a comprehensive feature to give the Post Codes, OS grid references, latitude & longitude and what3words references for wherever you are looking at.
 

growse

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Especially without a map. I'm not sure there is a free app that will give me a postcode or OSGB grid reference just based on GPS location.


Google Maps will also give you a plus code.
 
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Ken X

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We do a lot of inland waterway boating and do find what3words useful to identify where we are to interested parties in conjunction with other physical features such as roads etc. particularly when out in the wilds. As an aside, WhatsApp can also send the location of your phone to a third party by using the "location" button, shown when the attachment "paperclip" symbol is selected.
 

Hadrian

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Properties which are over five miles apart are frequently included in the same postcode in rural areas. The postcode system was designed by Royal Mail to meet the specific needs of post sorting for delivery and it is not suited to many other uses such as satnavs and emergency location.
 

i4n

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I think that for the lay person W3W is a brilliant idea what can solve far more issues than it causes. Thinking about it, Joe Bloggs off of the street gets asked by an emergency service what those 3 words are when they need help and they're in the middle of nowhere (say they've had a car crash in a remote country lane that's hard to describe) and they get them the assistance they need as quickly as possible. Even if it means spelling them out because of the possibility of a homonym (for/four/fore etc)

Now imagine someone having to explain how to get an OS grid reference or a Lat/Long coordinate and for the vast majority of the population you've got an excellent solution there in W3W. I'm happy giving coordinates in either degrees, minutes and seconds or decimal degrees so I'd probably revert to that because of what I've done as a job for many years.
 

Tetchytyke

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The problem with any "random" system is that it can end up being random in ways you don't want.

In my last job, we had a system which assigned border entry permit references using a random combination of letters and words. Which was great until one passenger called up to tell us their reference started with C, U, N, and T, in that specific order. Oops.
 

XAM2175

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That is incorrect, post codes are specific to one street and one street only. In my case, our post code only applies to half the street we live on.

A far cry from a wide area. I have no idea where you got that impression. Perhaps you are confused with American zip codes which are as you desribe?
No, you are incorrect. Postcodes are specific to whatever Royal Mail wants them to be specific to, as @Hadrian said:
Properties which are over five miles apart are frequently included in the same postcode in rural areas. The postcode system was designed by Royal Mail to meet the specific needs of post sorting for delivery and it is not suited to many other uses such as satnavs and emergency location.

In urban areas it is indeed common that specific postcodes will apply only to certain parts of roads or streets, but it is equally possible for them to cover areas much larger - such as whole villages in more remote places - and also much smaller, down to single buildings and even individual divisions within organisations. The main determinant is Royal Mail's convenience, though the level of specificity usually increases with the amount of mail received by addresses in the area.

(for a laugh, I'd also note that GX11 1AA covers the entirety of Gibraltar)
 

Ediswan

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Postcodes are specific to whatever Royal Mail wants them to be specific to
There were rumours/reports that postcodes had been allocated to some isolated car parks, with no actual delivery addresses. The suggested purpose being to help ambulances, with postcode based navigation, meet up with injured hill walkers and the like.
 
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