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December 2020 Timetable Change
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Baxenden Bank
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I think it was only an additional evening service this December anyway (presumably in both directions but never stated as such). The earlier Sunday services were due in December 2021. And that is a very long time away in the current situation - even though such things need to be planned well ahead in terms of bidding for paths and re-arranging signalers shifts etc.
I'm surprised it isn't starting from the 9th of November given the lockdown
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
9tph is the normal, which one is already missing? North Wales?
Yes, the XX.10 slot is used by the Glasgow now, and there is no XX.30.
The Planner
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TOCs may not have any choice if directed by the DfT.
Do you know if the xx:43 London-Birmingham-Scot is going to be running to Glasgow / Edinburgh or is it being terminated at Preston like in May/June ?
Whilst not advised to shield, those in the extremely vulnerable category are being advised not to go to work if they cannot work from home. This may have an effect on staff availability preventing the current timetable from being achievable, however it's my opinion that the timetable should only be reduced if all other options including overtime and rest day working is exhausted.
Gov.uk website says this is from 5th November but doesn't have an end date so it's conceivable that this advice could be extended into the new timetable period even though the lockdown has finished.
Edit: Micheal Gove has now confirmed lockdown could be extended.
Gov.uk website says this is from 5th November but doesn't have an end date so it's conceivable that this advice could be extended into the new timetable period even though the lockdown has finished.
Edit: Micheal Gove has now confirmed lockdown could be extended.
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From what I've heard, alternate hours XX.43 'The Slow Way to the North' will extend to either Edinburgh or Glasgow, the others terminating at Preston.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes!
If I didn't know you worked in train planning I'd think you worked in IT - a totally factual but utterly useless answer
If I didn't know you worked in train planning I'd think you worked in IT - a totally factual but utterly useless answer
Always stick to the facts
(And I don’t work in train planning
, I just know a lot of people that do)Yes!
Well that's some good news! So basically what you are saying seagull is that the 06:43, 08:43, 10:43, 12:43, 14:43 and 16:43 extends to Edinburgh whilst the 07:43, 09:43, 11:43, 13:43, 15:43 terminates earlier at Preston? With the 17:43 extending to Glasgow (ie this is what happens currently)
Can't they just be reserved without being in the base timetable or does that lead to confusion for NR later on with the potential for them to accidentally allow another service that shouldn't have been approved?
splashoutradio
Member
Whilst there's no doubt there'll be changes to the timetables due to Covid, if anyone's interested in the long term plan timetable, they are available for most of the county (parts of the South East are still to be compiled) as PDFs at www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/Dec20 . As the timetable changes and updates are made, these PDFs will also be updated.
Contractually quite messy! If you don't bid to run the train there isn't really anything that says it has to be kept in.
Wilts Wanderer
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It would lead to confusion - the presence of paths in the timetable is the only practical way to maintain awareness of the need to reserve capacity for them. It’s more than just lines on the graph, it’s also slots in platforms and connectional requirements with other services, etc.
Contractually Network Rail carry no obligation whatsoever to ensure TOC timetables fulfil their contracts with the DfT. Its a slightly bizarre aspect to the privatised system but no doubt made sense to some Government lawyers somewhere back in the mid-1990s. It is why we have the bid and offer process and the continuous bouncing back and forth of negotiations over timetabling requirements.
Operator A has firm rights to run 20 services a day. Operator A has to exercise those rights. If they exercise all 20 Network Rail has to allocate capacity for the 20 and in certain circumstances can choose to flex other operators to accommodate.
If Operator A exercises their firm rights to run 18 services then Operator A has chosen not exercise it firm right for the other two for the timetable in question. They will not appear in the timetable. Operator B can come along and bid into the white space on the graph for the timetable in question. The tricky parts comes the next timetable as both A and B could exercise their rights to run. Decision will then come down to:
1 - can both run and be compliant, problem solved if so;
2 - rights of the train. Operator A has firm rights and has chosen to exercise them all this time. The next decision will be based on what rights Operator B has. If they have expectation of rights or contingent then firm beats expectation / contingent onto the graph so A gets the path and B is rejected; or
3 - If A and B have firm rights and both exercise their rights then Network Rail applies decision criteria and one train gets offered, other is rejected.
If B goes into the vacated path and pursues firm rights then A needs to be on the ball when the track access rights for B are progressed and challenge the application. Network Rail should too as it knows it cannot offer both.
If Operator A exercises their firm rights to run 18 services then Operator A has chosen not exercise it firm right for the other two for the timetable in question. They will not appear in the timetable. Operator B can come along and bid into the white space on the graph for the timetable in question. The tricky parts comes the next timetable as both A and B could exercise their rights to run. Decision will then come down to:
1 - can both run and be compliant, problem solved if so;
2 - rights of the train. Operator A has firm rights and has chosen to exercise them all this time. The next decision will be based on what rights Operator B has. If they have expectation of rights or contingent then firm beats expectation / contingent onto the graph so A gets the path and B is rejected; or
3 - If A and B have firm rights and both exercise their rights then Network Rail applies decision criteria and one train gets offered, other is rejected.
If B goes into the vacated path and pursues firm rights then A needs to be on the ball when the track access rights for B are progressed and challenge the application. Network Rail should too as it knows it cannot offer both.
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I don't know the specifics to that degree of detail but I imagine it will be something along those lines, yes.
So is there currently a full base timetable, which is being used to create the December timetable and if not I take it some paths could be lost?
Dec 20 has a base which is being modified via either the STP process for some TOCs, or if operators know they won't be running for months then they can do this via the LTP process and cancel or modify the trains for the entirety of the Dec 20 timetable.
May 21 base is starting to be developed so anything removed in Dec 20 now could well already be in May 21 at this stage. Though with what's going on anything could happen. Very much into the unknown at the moment.
If an operator has bid to remove a service in May 21 then the service would need to be rebid from scratch if they required it back in Dec 21.
May 21 base is starting to be developed so anything removed in Dec 20 now could well already be in May 21 at this stage. Though with what's going on anything could happen. Very much into the unknown at the moment.
If an operator has bid to remove a service in May 21 then the service would need to be rebid from scratch if they required it back in Dec 21.
TrainTube
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Does anyone know if Northern are cutting back on services in the next week or 2?
Jamesrob637
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See post #207 for my opinion so I wouldn't have thought so.
Kings Lynn services look interesting there. Hard to deduce precisely, but from missing calls at Waterbeach and Littleport, plus dwell times at Cambridge (to add/detach carriages, or not) - looks like the 8-car platform extensions aren't coming on line until the start of March?
Seems a bit odd if they're not ready for December - Waterbeach has looked ready for months. Is Littleport having difficulties?
43074
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There are 8 cars in the plan from the start, and as far as I am aware it is still on for December, the biggest risk was the new 8-car stabling siding at Kings Lynn.
The dwell times at Cambridge continue for a couple of reasons - there is no need from a timetable planning point of view to rework either the single line sections between Kings Lynn and Ely North Junction or the timetable through the Cambridge area before the West Anglia recast in 18 months time or so, and there are still 8-cars north of Cambridge which are strengthened to 12 between Cambridge and Kings Cross so the timetable at Cambridge does not need variations to what would otherwise be a standard hourly pattern to accommodate attachments and detachments being made.
I've never seen http://www.railwaydata.co.uk before - how is the information it displays generated? Looking at http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/Dec20/timetable.php?table=229 and comparing it to the data in RealTimeTrains, whenever two trains arrive into Cambridge in service and join to from one train to London, it's missing one of the two trains north of Cambridge, e.g. in the weekday morning peak the Ely to King's Cross departures at 0646, 0711, 0740, 0840, and 0941 are all missing (some of those started from King's Lynn, some at Ely).
306024
Established Member
The data is very raw and has a few glitches. Stansted Mountfitchet was closed the last time I looked. Some tables are excellent, although many would look clearer if they ran from 02.00 to 01.59. In the days when the National Rail Timetable commanded some respect some TOCs used to do a lot of manual editing to make the data more presentable.
whitby66078
Member
Does anyone have any gen on if the new northern service will start running from york to scarborugh? It was due to start in may but obviusley didnt!
Cheers!
Cheers!
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