December 2022 Timetable Changes

[hkstudent]

It has been extensively discussed upthread (or se0arately, or both?).

I don't recall your specific point being made, though.

My guess is that most passengers will change at London Br, and a fair number of Bexleyheath Line passengers will simply switch to Victoria.
Those who are heading to places within walking distance of CHX/WAE will split between the CST and VIC services so some will opt to change platforms at Lewisham. Not sure it will be vast numbers.

Issue is: Changing at London Bridge is not a very desirable one given that the vertical distance between platform and concourse is so high. Change at Lewisham involve much shorter walk and less steps involved.

Changing at London Bridge is worse than Lewisham, as Bexleyheath Line will still only have 2 tph to London Bridge while Lewisham get 4tph. Should the Victoria service also goes to Cannon Street, as per the pre 2019 plan, then a London Bridge change shall be more feasible.

The current timetable is a half baked solution to the 2019 proposal, which actually have more passenger disbenefit than benefits. It is especially true for late night services after 9, which CHX service is often fully seated from Waterloo East all the way upto Eltham.

Meanwhile, changing from Charing Cross to Cannon Street do add 3 minutes to the journey time as calling at 2 more stations. Google Map and National Rail journey planner suggested Lewisham as the preferred interchange point.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Issue is: Changing at London Bridge is not a very desirable one given that the vertical distance between platform and concourse is so high. Change at Lewisham involve much shorter walk and less steps involved.

Changing at London Bridge is worse than Lewisham, as Bexleyheath Line will still only have 2 tph to London Bridge while Lewisham get 4tph. Should the Victoria service also goes to Cannon Street, as per the pre 2019 plan, then a London Bridge change shall be more feasible.

The current timetable is a half baked solution to the 2019 proposal, which actually have more passenger disbenefit than benefits. It is especially true for late night services after 9, which CHX service is often fully seated from Waterloo East all the way upto Eltham.

Meanwhile, changing from Charing Cross to Cannon Street do add 3 minutes to the journey time as calling at 2 more stations. Google Map and National Rail journey planner suggested Lewisham as the preferred interchange point.

As someone who changes at London Bridge regularly I think it's an incredibly easy station to change at.

 

[hkstudent]

As someone who changes at London Bridge regularly I think it's an incredibly easy station to change at.

It's not difficult I have to say, but the time required for interchange is longer than Lewisham one.
For Bexleyheath Line's case, only having 2tph to London Bridge won't make interchange at London Bridge be easy. Lewisham would still be easier for shorter walking distance and more frequent trains.

 

[50031]

Arguably the additional service to Gloucester is less beneficial than the reinstatement of the half-hourly fast service between Cheltenham Spa and Bristol Temple Meads would be, calling intermediately only at Bristol Parkway, plus all of the 2019 services between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa. It's not as if Cam & Dursley or Yate are large enough traffic drivers for the increase in themselves.

Of course, a half-hourly fast service between Bristol and Birmingham again is probably not coming back this decade at this rate.

Well Yate should have been half hourly years ago. It is large town, compared with, say Yatton and Nailsea, with their more frequent services. I live in Dursley, so I know that Cam & Dursley is less busy, and the Gloucester service to Bristol is sub-optimal, due to XC largely avoiding the time penalty of reversal. Cam & Dursley car park is close to full these days, so I reckon passenger numbers here are fairly near pre-pandemic levels

 

[Kite159]

Anybody wanting Charing Cross from the Bexleyheath line will probably change at London Bridge if they are on a Cannon Street service, changing at Lewisham if on a Victoria service. Lot more trains from London Bridge towards Charing Cross which don't call at Lewisham, including the long distance services.

 

[hkstudent]

Anybody wanting Charing Cross from the Bexleyheath line will probably change at London Bridge if they are on a Cannon Street service, changing at Lewisham if on a Victoria service. Lot more trains from London Bridge towards Charing Cross which don't call at Lewisham, including the long distance services.

Not necessarily.

Given that Cannon Street service will be 3 minutes slower than on a Charing Cross service arriving London Bridge, plus, the connecting Charing Cross service at Lewisham is 5 minutes away only. Even National Rail Journey Planner suggested to change at Lewisham. If people follows what Google/CityMapper/NR Journey Planner says, then Lewisham will be the main interchange point.

And it's even more true for eastbound service, given that only 2tph at London Bridge while having 4tph at Lewisham.

 

[andyc20050]

SWR are showing the following
0603 Fareham to Waterloo via Havant (All stations to Woking)
1815 Waterloo to Fareham via Havant (All stations from Woking)

0715 Waterloo to Southampton Central via Havant (All stations Woking to Swanwick, then Netley, Woolston, St Denys.

 

[317 forever]

The impression I have got is that, with a possible exception of limited peak hour services, there will be no direct trains serving Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel to/from stations beyond Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

SWR are showing the following
0603 Fareham to Waterloo via Havant (All stations to Woking)
1815 Waterloo to Fareham via Havant (All stations from Woking)

0715 Waterloo to Southampton Central via Havant (All stations Woking to Swanwick, then Netley, Woolston, St Denys.

This is to provide additional route retention opportunities between Farlington and Cosham Junctions for SWR services.

 

[pompeyfan]

This is to provide additional route retention opportunities between Farlington and Cosham Junctions for SWR services.

Aren’t those diagrams starting and ending at Northam? I thought Northam drivers have lots of work over that section of track? 1P90, 1P54 and 1P58 all go that way already, although the only work in the other direction is a Fratton crew on 2Y61.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Aren’t those diagrams starting and ending at Northam? I thought Northam drivers have lots of work over that section of track? 1P90, 1P54 and 1P58 all go that way already, although the only work in the other direction is a Fratton crew on 2Y61.

The 0715 Waterloo - Southampton via Netley forms another passenger service at Southampton so doesn’t have to be a Northam crew.

 

[frodshamfella]

Yeah, I'd heard it was, but according to RTT this doesn't seem to be the case.

There is a fair pent up demand for it as the two-hourly trains are nearly always packed and even when they had an hourly service it was well used.

It's certainly annoying if you live in the South of Liverpool because it means having to travel all the way into city centre and then back out again via the slow Merseyrail Wirral Line.

I'm just hoping the Halton Curve route it isn't left to decline given the massive potential for connecting Liverpool to Wales opportunities.

Still only every 2 hours, its just ridiculously inadequate.

 

[Horizon22]

As someone who changes at London Bridge regularly I think it's an incredibly easy station to change at.

Agreed I used to do it all the time. Down a set of escalators, a huge concourse, and up a set of escalators.

The long interchange time is somewhat natural for big London termini but you can easily be faster that the suggestion.

 

[Starmill]

Agreed I used to do it all the time. Down a set of escalators, a huge concourse, and up a set of escalators.

The long interchange time is somewhat natural for big London termini but you can easily be faster that the suggestion.

I think that the only genuine problems arise when some of the lifts or escalators are closed off and out of service. Unfortunately that's not as rare as it should be but it's obviously a solvable problem. Having just one escalator out of order might seem like a small thing but the effect it has on capacity can be substantial.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Agreed I used to do it all the time. Down a set of escalators, a huge concourse, and up a set of escalators.

The long interchange time is somewhat natural for big London termini but you can easily be faster that the suggestion.

As a very occasional user of London Bridge, I do find it a difficult station, since the layout (and even where the platforms/tracks are) isn't obvious unless you're already up on a platform. I can't easily "read" the space and understand where everything is, and so don't have a mental map of the station to guide me.

 

[davyp]

The impression I have got is that, with a possible exception of limited peak hour services, there will be no direct trains serving Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel to/from stations beyond Manchester Piccadilly.

Or Hazel Grove, Woodsmoor and Davenport!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or Hazel Grove, Woodsmoor and Davenport!

I'm not sure why I'd be bothered about that if I lived there. 13/14 are grim (possibly the worst passenger experience in Europe) and Oxford Road isn't much better. I'd far rather travel from the civility of the through platforms, given that Manchester is the main destination for those places.

Yes, if you want Bolton it's a slight faff and you do have to tolerate 13/14, but there's no shortage of trains to Bolton.

So this will be better for the vast majority. The issue of the wires does need dealing with, though short of wiring to Buxton that means decent (presumably CAF) bi-modes need ordering as I've said all along.

 

[cle]

I'm not sure why I'd be bothered about that if I lived there. 13/14 are grim (possibly the worst passenger experience in Europe) and Oxford Road isn't much better. I'd far rather travel from the civility of the through platforms, given that Manchester is the main destination for those places.

Yes, if you want Bolton it's a slight faff and you do have to tolerate 13/14, but there's no shortage of trains to Bolton.

So this will be better for the vast majority. The issue of the wires does need dealing with, though short of wiring to Buxton that means decent (presumably CAF) bi-modes need ordering as I've said all along.

I think it's more local folks who might want the options of Oxford Road, Deansgate - or even around the loop! - vs regional and occasional travellers. Levenshulme to Piccadilly only, you may as well get a bus (or cycle) - also they are more likely to travel more days per week, and so should be prioritized.

There are many from Davenport etc who commute to Spinningfields - that service should exist (to Deansgate at least, not saying Salford Central - even though wrong lines) - I don't think Bolton is as important as access to Oxford Road, which is useful to many.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's more local folks who might want the options of Oxford Road, Deansgate - or even around the loop! - vs regional and occasional travellers. Levenshulme to Piccadilly only, you may as well get a bus (or cycle) - also they are more likely to travel more days per week, and so should be prioritized.

There are many from Davenport etc who commute to Spinningfields - that service should exist (to Deansgate at least, not saying Salford Central - even though wrong lines) - I don't think Bolton is as important as access to Oxford Road, which is useful to many.

Don't forget that all intra-TfGM return tickets include a central zone tram trip. I'd take Piccadilly and a quick tram ride over having to put up with the meat market that is 13/14*. And not every service stops at Deansgate.

Boarding at a terminus is uniquely civilised. We at Euston didn't want our services onto Crossrail either! And that is with Crossrail having enough capacity, unlike 13/14.

Removing the services from Castlefield will also improve their punctuality massively.

As for cycling, it is to be encouraged because of its health benefits. If anyone switches from public transport to cycling, good (not as good as from car, but still good). And the 192 also only goes to Piccadilly, so I don't see why the bus would be preferred.

 

[jfollows]

I think it's more local folks who might want the options of Oxford Road, Deansgate - or even around the loop! - vs regional and occasional travellers.

Yes, from Wilmslow I sometimes want Oxford Road or Deansgate and have travelled via Manchester Airport for this in the past if I’m not in a hurry (to avoid having to use platforms 13 and 14). Victoria is too slow and unreliable to bother since I did the Ordsall Chord once for the hell of it. Tram I occasionally use if I’m tired on the way back but rarely.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think that the only genuine problems arise when some of the lifts or escalators are closed off and out of service. Unfortunately that's not as rare as it should be but it's obviously a solvable problem. Having just one escalator out of order might seem like a small thing but the effect it has on capacity can be substantial.

The minimum interchange time used to be five minutes. I certainly wouldn't risk a +5 there. Then again I did make a -1 off the 07:14 arrival from Brighton onto 5176 on the 07:13 to Orpington. I had no gen on EPB workings, but I heard the brakes screech as I was on the bridge and started running. Hard to believe it was 28 years ago!

 

[td97]

I'd take Piccadilly and a quick tram ride over having to put up with the meat market that is 13/14*. And not every service stops at Deansgate.

A lot of doctors & nurses (especially younger generation) from stepping hill hospital use the service to commute between there and Manchester (where many live - lots of flats in Castlefield and Ordsall/Salford).
It is noticeable for the Blackpool North services that the Hazel Grove originators carry much more through traffic than the Airport originators (perhaps 50% vs 25% continue beyond Piccadilly).
On a through service, you could be at Deansgate before a person had even departed from the Piccadilly tram platform. Then a slow 15mph crawl across town taking 10 minutes on the tram... not at all competitive.

 

[Triumph]

TL/GN 387 Diagrams are rather interesting with 4 x 12 car services up & down on on the Kings Lynn's & Peterborough's on TWTh only with MFO being 8 cars. So clearly a large percentage of commuters still works from home on Mondays and Fridays. Also for a very small fleet there is rather a lot of spare stock on a Monday and Friday.

 

[dk1]

TL/GN 387 Diagrams are rather interesting with 4 x 12 car services up & down on on the Kings Lynn's & Peterborough's on TWTh only with MFO being 8 cars. So clearly a large percentage of commuters still works from home on Mondays and Fridays. Also for a very small fleet there is rather a lot of spare stock on a Monday and Friday.

That was happening long before the pandemic. Commuter car parks where always far quieter on Mondays & very much quieter on Fridays.

 

[Triumph]

That was happening long before the pandemic. Commuter car parks where always far quieter on Mondays & very much quieter on Fridays.

I think we are all well aware of that, the point I was making was this will be the first diagram change to reflect the change in the pattern of peak hour travel in and out of London.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think we are all well aware of that, the point I was making was this will be the first diagram change to reflect the change in the pattern of peak hour travel in and out of London.

Friday only / Friday excepted diagrams to deal with a different travel pattern on the Friday peak hour have existed for year. On SSWT formations on a West of England services were always different on a Friday.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And I'm fairly sure Virgin Trains abolished evening peak restrictions on Fridays for the same reason, and if memory serves allowed Anytime ticket holders to sit in first class - although that last one might have been weekends. I think it was actually.

 

[brad465]

Issue is: Changing at London Bridge is not a very desirable one given that the vertical distance between platform and concourse is so high. Change at Lewisham involve much shorter walk and less steps involved.

Changing at London Bridge is worse than Lewisham, as Bexleyheath Line will still only have 2 tph to London Bridge while Lewisham get 4tph. Should the Victoria service also goes to Cannon Street, as per the pre 2019 plan, then a London Bridge change shall be more feasible.

The current timetable is a half baked solution to the 2019 proposal, which actually have more passenger disbenefit than benefits. It is especially true for late night services after 9, which CHX service is often fully seated from Waterloo East all the way upto Eltham.

Meanwhile, changing from Charing Cross to Cannon Street do add 3 minutes to the journey time as calling at 2 more stations. Google Map and National Rail journey planner suggested Lewisham as the preferred interchange point.

Agreed I used to do it all the time. Down a set of escalators, a huge concourse, and up a set of escalators.

The long interchange time is somewhat natural for big London termini but you can easily be faster that the suggestion.

As a very occasional user of London Bridge, I do find it a difficult station, since the layout (and even where the platforms/tracks are) isn't obvious unless you're already up on a platform. I can't easily "read" the space and understand where everything is, and so don't have a mental map of the station to guide me.

Were there not plans to make a separate level halfway down that would have made interchange between platforms easier but never materialised? I wouldn't be surprised if the change in services from December highlights the flaw in not having such a proposal in place.

 

[bramling]

I think we are all well aware of that, the point I was making was this will be the first diagram change to reflect the change in the pattern of peak hour travel in and out of London.

Do wonder how much it really saves to shorten the formations on two days. Presumably this also means crew diagrams differences as well.

 

[Triumph]

Friday only / Friday excepted diagrams to deal with a different travel pattern on the Friday peak hour have existed for year. On SSWT formations on a West of England services were always different on a Friday.

Yes but the point was having rush hour trains in/out of London of different formations on different days!
This doesn't happen on a Monday.
Regarding SWR West of England services on a Friday all the stock formations in/out of Waterloo are exactly the same the only difference at the London end is the 1720 Front 5 runs on to Exeter instead of Front 3 and the 2340 runs on to Yevoil Jun.