December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Cletus]

From a Dover point of view, I see some albeit minor changes for someone who normally travels at weekends.
- St Pancras to Dover Priory trains now depart at xx07 instead of the xx37 they've been for a long time.
- The xx37's from St Pancras call at Ashford just before a Charing Cross to Dover slow train, so that could make an ok connection.
- The early departures from Dover Priory to St Pancras seem to have gone - 1st train now 0648.
- Charing Cross services now omitting Pluckley.

 

[Kite159]

From a Dover point of view, I see some albeit minor changes for someone who normally travels at weekends.
- St Pancras to Dover Priory trains now depart at xx07 instead of the xx37 they've been for a long time.
- The xx37's from St Pancras call at Ashford just before a Charing Cross to Dover slow train, so that could make an ok connection.
- The early departures from Dover Priory to St Pancras seem to have gone - 1st train now 0648.
- Charing Cross services now omitting Pluckley.

At least it's an improvement in spreading the services from Ashford to Dover although coming the other way is still 2 trains within 10 minutes with the St Pancras train running from Ramsgate.

 

[Peter0124]

Can someone please explain to me why the Avanti TT has suddenly changed?

Realtime Trains | 9S55 0916 London Euston to Wolverhampton | 12/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 9S55 0916 departure from London Euston to Wolverhampton on 12/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Now the Scotland via Birmingham services have been retimed to xx.16 and have Watford, Milton Keynes and Rugby calls added?!?

 

[JonathanH]

Can someone please explain to me why the Avanti TT has suddenly changed?

Realtime Trains | 9S55 0916 London Euston to Wolverhampton | 12/12/2022

Real-time train running information for 9S55 0916 departure from London Euston to Wolverhampton on 12/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Now the Scotland via Birmingham services have been retimed to xx.16 and have Watford, Milton Keynes and Rugby calls added?!?

Shortage of traincrew, just like with the service now.

There was a note further up that the Avanti timetable would be cut back relative to the initially posted timetable.

 

[Peter0124]

Shortage of traincrew, just like with the service now.

There was a note further up that the Avanti timetable would be cut back relative to the initially posted timetable.

Ahh, what I don't understand is why are the Scotland services the ones being slowed down rather than the xx.40 Birmingham terminator? That one is non stop to Coventry.

 

[Starmill]

Ahh, what I don't understand is why are the Scotland services the ones being slowed down rather than the xx.40 Birmingham terminator? That one is non stop to Coventry.

It's just being done in the way that best saves train crew diagrams.

 

[evergreenadam]

Just been checking the December timetable, and the removal of the Ramsgate services has left a big hole in the timetable from Bromley South to Victoria. There are a lot of services from xx.00 - xx.34, and then a 26 minute gap to the next service at xx.00. The service is no longer turn up and go. This is pretty disappointing; if services needed to be cut, then the remaining services should have spread out, rather than having a very lopsided timetable. Given the high loadings on the current services, I’m expecting bad overcrowding come December, especially on the xx.03 services.

That’s terrible. What happened to the Ramsgate services?

The Maidstone East services look great, but the intervals between Thameslink and Southestern services via Greenwich are very poor.

I can’t imagine there was much demand for Maidstone East services to Blackfriars off-peak, but Charing Cross will be very attractive for the West End as well as maintaining services to the South Bank. Opens up new travel opportunities via London Bridge too, including Canary Wharf and O2.

 

[Starmill]

That’s terrible. What happened to the Ramsgate services?

Nothing. There's still a half-hourly departure from London Victoria via Medway fast to Bromley South.

 

[Philip]

In relation to the new Liverpool via Warrington timetable, should either TPE or EMR add Irlam to their stopping pattern? A lot of passengers travel to/from Irlam and the planned one stopping train per hour doesn't sound like it'll be enough.

 

[350401]

Nothing. There's still a half-hourly departure from London Victoria via Medway fast to Bromley South.

Apologies, it might be one of the other fast services then - there is a gap in the London bound timetable, which was previously filled by the xx.48 to London Victoria. Services are now xx.03, xx.18, xx.33 fast and xx.04/xx.34 stoppers.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Apologies, it might be one of the other fast services then - there is a gap in the London bound timetable, which was previously filled by the xx.48 to London Victoria. Services are now xx.03, xx.18, xx.33 fast and xx.04/xx.34 stoppers.

It's the other Maidstone East service which I don't think is the current timetable sx anyway which is gone. There is also the xx00 via Denmark Hill to Victoria

 

[350401]

It's the other Maidstone East service which I don't think is the current timetable sx anyway which is gone. There is also the xx00 via Denmark Hill to Victoria

Thanks. It is in the current timetable, a quick check of the timetable today shows the service running at xx.48 every hour. Guessing it’s a casualty of the plan to move one of the Maidstone services to Charing X, first stop Swanley? Unless that is an additional service?

 

[The Planner]

In relation to the new Liverpool via Warrington timetable, should either TPE or EMR add Irlam to their stopping pattern? A lot of passengers travel to/from Irlam and the planned one stopping train per hour doesn't sound like it'll be enough.

The TPE schedules look like they have unadvertised stops in them at Irlam.

 

[LowLevel]

The TPE schedules look like they have unadvertised stops in them at Irlam.

They do and should be at some point - there's some sort of issue with TPE stock calling there at the moment that caused a lot of local irritation when it was announced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shortage of traincrew, just like with the service now.

There was a note further up that the Avanti timetable would be cut back relative to the initially posted timetable.

Looks like:

2 x Manchester
1 x Birmingham terminator
1 x Somewhere via Birmingham (it seems a bit random)
1 x Glasgow
1 x Liverpool

I'm not confident it won't end up cut further...

 

[Bald Rick]

Looks like:

2 x Manchester
1 x Birmingham terminator
1 x Somewhere via Birmingham (it seems a bit random)
1 x Glasgow
1 x Liverpool

I'm not confident it won't end up cut further...

Its 3 to Manchester

Beyond Birmingham, it’s Edinburgh every other hour, and Glasgow or Blackpool every other hour, plus a Shrewsbury.

There’s also 8 x Chester / North Wales spread through the day, an occasional third service to the W Mids, and one extra evening NW service via the TV to Blackpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its 3 to Manchester

Sorry, so it is. In which case "I predict it definitely will be cut further".

 

[BHXDMT]

They do and should be at some point - there's some sort of issue with TPE stock calling there at the moment that caused a lot of local irritation when it was announced.

Platform requires raising, so until that's done TPE can't call there.

 

[LowLevel]

Platform requires raising, so until that's done TPE can't call there.

Thought it was something like that. Seems a bit daft but there you go. Unfortunately I believe the EMR service timings are sufficiently nailed in by the nature of the service that there's no room for additional calls, indeed some of the peak time ones at the likes of Hough Green and Hunts Cross are removed in December.

 

[brad465]

It's not poor. Off Peak, there is far too much freight and seasonal traffic going through Tonbridge. The current timetable doesn't actually work and the only way to work is to take trains out of Tonbridge.

Presumably the main issue with freight pathings is with the freight traffic through Tonbridge that reverses into Tonbridge West Yard, which can block out almost every path through the station as they almost all are too long to fit on the fast line without having to go through the signal onto the junction east of the station.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Presumably the main issue with freight pathings is with the freight traffic through Tonbridge that reverses into Tonbridge West Yard, which can block out almost every path through the station as they almost all are too long to fit on the fast line without having to go through the signal onto the junction east of the station.

That and fitting all the test trains and seasonal trains into Tonbridge Platforms 1 and 2 is a nightmare for their reverse moves and other stops.

 

[duncombec]

I'm most surprised by the continued non reintroduction of the second high-speed service per hour from faversham to to London. Demand on the existing service is quite high even off peak and I am a regular user of the service when I'm in the south. After a couple of incidences of being left behind I've switched my business to elsewhere and this is clearly all too common as various southeastern booking offices have issued me a refund for the difference where applicable without so much as a raised eyebrow.

I have to say, this is is probably the most annoying for me, especially at weekends. (Half-hourly between Faversham and Dover is nice to have, as I come from Chatham line to Canterbury East, but London via CBW has always been the bigger market, and CBE is the only sizeable settlement on the line between Faversham and Dover).
After years of being told that St Pancras was the new go-to destination and trains to Victoria and other London termini had to make way for them, it now seems notable that the STP service has been the slowest to return. Whilst it may not necessarily be people's destination of choice, especially for days out in London, it has picked up a lot with travel to Stratford (for Westfield) and for people changing to other trains from any of the "north" stations - KGX, EUS and STP.

Exactly, I think people overestimated working from home, we will go back to 2019 levels eventually, that’s why I think SE are having a knee jerk reaction, trains may not be like they were in 2019 but it’s nearer to that point than it is to 2020-2021.

by it not recovering, I mean purely in terms of peak number and commuters which definitely have not returned to previous numbers. I think everyone agrees that off peak timetables should be back to pre pandemic levels as the demand warrants that, but a slightly reduced peak timetable is fine imo

The suggestion from SouthEastern on Radio Kent yesterday was that commuter traffic is still heavily down. If I'm remembering correctly, the new timetable should allow for 82% of the current capacity, which is still about 10% above current occupancy levels both peak and off-peak.

 

[Greybeard33]

Platform requires raising, so until that's done TPE can't call there.

From the Draft Minutes of the GM Metrolink and Rail Subcommittee meeting on 23 September:

That it be advised that Network Rail would contact Salford Council to provide a
clear update on the proposed works required to enable the restoration of TPE
services at Irlam Rail Station.

Greater Manchester Combined Authority

Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) - working together to improve the lives of people in Greater Manchester - Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, Wigan

democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk

 

[Some guy]

You know what I’d rather the Euston Birmingham Scotland services depart at xx:16 it’s better that then Glasgow getting canned for it to rather send them Blackpool. The 1 Glasgow tph has suffered from the cuts so it’s good to see at least some of them return

 

[Bletchleyite]

You know what I’d rather the Euston Birmingham Scotland services depart at xx:16 it’s better that then Glasgow getting canned for it to rather send them Blackpool. The 1 Glasgow tph has suffered from the cuts so it’s good to see at least some of them return

They weren't canned for sending to Blackpool - Blackpool was just a very long reversing siding to prevent them blocking platforms at Preston for long periods. Usage between Preston and Blackpool was very, very low.

 

[JetStream]

I'm surprised Chester-Liverpool via Helsby isn't going back to an hourly service, especially with the 197 introduction.

 

[Peter0124]

I actually find it odd that the Glasgow via BHM services are still there considering recent cancellations, will there be enough traincrew to run these?

They weren't canned for sending to Blackpool - Blackpool was just a very long reversing siding to prevent them blocking platforms at Preston for long periods. Usage between Preston and Blackpool was very, very low.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually find it odd that the Glasgow via BHM services are still there considering recent cancellations, will there be enough traincrew to run these?

I would be surprised if there were enough traincrew to run what is proposed, even minus the second Liverpool and the Brum semifast.

 

[Adam Evans]

I'm surprised Chester-Liverpool via Helsby isn't going back to an hourly service, especially with the 197 introduction.

Yeah, I'd heard it was, but according to RTT this doesn't seem to be the case.

There is a fair pent up demand for it as the two-hourly trains are nearly always packed and even when they had an hourly service it was well used.

It's certainly annoying if you live in the South of Liverpool because it means having to travel all the way into city centre and then back out again via the slow Merseyrail Wirral Line.

I'm just hoping the Halton Curve route it isn't left to decline given the massive potential for connecting Liverpool to Wales opportunities.

 

[Some guy]

I actually find it odd that the Glasgow via BHM services are still there considering recent cancellations, will there be enough traincrew to run these?

Easy peasy a lot of staff who have been training will be passed out before the timetable change