December 2025 Timetable Change

[Avenger20]

Good afternoon all,

This thread is for speculation on the December 2025 Timetable Change. What do you think will change? What do you want to change and why?

There is another thread for confirmed changes in the Allocations section.

 

[devon_belle]

Some re-introductions of SWR metro services (e.g. 2 tph Dorking/Guildford via Epsom)? An obvious win for the newly nationalised company if they have the stock for it.

 

[xotGD]

Reinstatement of the missing services between Bradford and Skipton/Ilkley would be nice.

And lots of 6-car workings between Leeds and Skipton.

 

[Class15]

Isn’t it a bit early? We still haven’t had the May one!

I would like to see the recovery of the Great Northern inner-suburban system to 4tph on each of Welwyn and Hertford branches, not that it’ll happen.

 

[duffield]

Reinstating the "missing train" from Norwich to Nottingham in the gap between the 1750 and the 2008 would be useful to me, that's typically around the time I want to travel back after a day out in Norfolk. A 2hr18min gap at this time of day is very poor.

 

[Helvellyn]

Some re-introductions of SWR metro services (e.g. 2 tph Dorking/Guildford via Epsom)? An obvious win for the newly nationalised company if they have the stock for it.

I'd have thought priority would be to get the 701s all in service and the 455s off lease first. Extra services would probably be an aspiration after that but isn't there a timetable recast proposed once the 701s are introduced?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

There will be full launch of the 730/2s across LNWR, hopefully news regarding the Manchester/Airport routes.
WMR will launch the Camp Hill and Darlaston/Willenhall routes.

 

[The Planner]

There will be full launch of the 730/2s across LNWR, hopefully news regarding the Manchester/Airport routes.
WMR will launch the Camp Hill and Darlaston/Willenhall routes.

They might launch the Darlaston routes during the timetable, those stations won't be ready by December looking at them.

 

[brad465]

175s will hopefully have started being rolled out with GWR, although whether any services get extra capacity depends on how many have been rolled out.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

They might launch the Darlaston routes during the timetable, those stations won't be ready by December looking at them.

The company are certainly suggesting that the plan is for them to be ready. Not seen how the camp hill sites are progressing but there's certainly a lot of work to be done on the Darlaston route.

 

[VItraveller]

hope something gets done about the Banbury Oxford Reading corridor by someone, Chiltern, GWR, Xc, SWR I don’t care, we just need more services to deal with the overcrowding.

 

[miklcct]

Isn’t it a bit early? We still haven’t had the May one!

I would like to see the recovery of the Great Northern inner-suburban system to 4tph on each of Welwyn and Hertford branches, not that it’ll happen.

My wish:

8 trains per hour between Moorgate and Finsbury Park, 4 of them to Welwyn, another 4 to Hertford with 2 of them to Stevenage

4 trains per hour, 7 days per week between Victoria and Orpington

Restoration of off-peak Kentish Town - Orpington Thameslink services for 4 trains per hour on Catford loop

Restoration of Victoria - Norbury - Sutton to 4 trains per hour

Restoration of Hounslow loop to give 8 trains per hour at Wandsworth Town

Restoration of Waterloo - Epsom to 4 trains per hour

2 trains per hour between East Croydon and Watford Junction, and 6 trains per hour between Clapham Junction and Stratford, totalling 8 at Kensington Olympia

Restoration of 2 trains per hour all day, 7 days per week between Marylebone and Aylesbury

And in the long term, 4 trains per hour on the Sutton loop, with 2 of them terminating at Blackfriars.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

My wish:

8 trains per hour between Moorgate and Finsbury Park, 4 of them to Welwyn, another 4 to Hertford with 2 of them to Stevenage

4 trains per hour, 7 days per week between Victoria and Orpington

Restoration of off-peak Kentish Town - Orpington Thameslink services for 4 trains per hour on Catford loop

Restoration of Victoria - Norbury - Sutton to 4 trains per hour

Restoration of Hounslow loop to give 8 trains per hour at Wandsworth Town

Restoration of Waterloo - Epsom to 4 trains per hour

2 trains per hour between East Croydon and Watford Junction, and 6 trains per hour between Clapham Junction and Stratford, totalling 8 at Kensington Olympia

Restoration of 2 trains per hour all day, 7 days per week between Marylebone and Aylesbury

And in the long term, 4 trains per hour on the Sutton loop, with 2 of them terminating at Blackfriars.

There is no capacity for 2tph between East Croydon and Watford Junction. Freight use the other path per hour.

 

[The Planner]

hope something gets done about the Banbury Oxford Reading corridor by someone, Chiltern, GWR, Xc, SWR I don’t care, we just need more services to deal with the overcrowding.

You might get a couple of extra XCs, that is about it.

 

[A S Leib]

Bicester to Bletchley being open, and Euston to Milton Keynes or Trent Valley stoppers being retimed by a minute at Milton Keynes Central.

The remaining Northumberland line stations opening.

 

[trainmania100]

Newcastle to Brighton just kidding it's probably next year instead.

More freight paths via the Bml from Newhaven ideally.

 

[Peter0124]

Glasgow Queen Street to Kings Cross Lumo?

 

[Dr Strider]

It would be nice if Birmingham to Leicester M-F at peak times didn't have any hour-long gaps in it. Dec 2024 had a gap between 0852 and 0952 i.e. no 0922. That has been reinstated in the May 2025 timetable. But the M-F 0822 has now gone!

 

[I'm here now]

No ‘express’ trains on the Cornish Main Line to give a 2tph ish service to more people to make up for the worsening bus services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No ‘express’ trains on the Cornish Main Line to give a 2tph ish service to more people to make up for the worsening bus services.

And thus a worsening train service for most major Cornish stations.

 

[I'm here now]

And thus a worsening train service for most major Cornish stations.

Not really - large gaps for major places like Lostwithiel and Hayle, especially on weekends and the early/late hours is more detrimental than 5 minutes lost for the places it already stops at. I’m sure a combined population of around 15,000 merits 5ish minutes on those services, at the very least.

 

[Baji]

4tph London Victoria to Cheam and Epsom to be restored (1tph faster to Dorking, 1tph faster to Horsham and 2tph Epsom via Hackbridge)

I also have a funny feeling in future, they may introduce half hourly service between London Bridge and Sutton via Forest Hill and run non-stop between Sutton and West Croydon.

 

[30907]

Not really - large gaps for major places like Lostwithiel and Hayle, especially on weekends and the early/late hours is more detrimental than 5 minutes lost for the places it already stops at. I’m sure a combined population of around 15,000 merits 5ish minutes on those services, at the very least.

I can only find a couple of gaps over +/- 60min - for stations that are not exactly busy off-peak a couple of tweaks would do the job.

 

[anthony263]

Hopefully tfw will plug the 2 hour gaps on the swanline services to give a full hourly service between Cardiff and. Swansea maybe even a Sunday service

 

[I'm here now]

I can only find a couple of gaps over +/- 60min - for stations that are not exactly busy off-peak a couple of tweaks would do the job.

Perhaps future demand could be thought of rather than mere demand at a time with poor service. It’s not like the express services are full down the extremities - a bit of extra revenue (however small) and likely increased usage of public transport can’t hurt!

 

[MatthewHutton]

Perhaps future demand could be thought of rather than mere demand at a time with poor service. It’s not like the express services are full down the extremities - a bit of extra revenue (however small) and likely increased usage of public transport can’t hurt!

Also the express service gets very far away from an even spread.

 

[Magdalia]

The previous train before the 1800 is at 1739 though, so nothing for 53 minutes - until we then get 4 trains departing in the space of 10 minutes. (and indeed there are 4 trains in the 7 minutes leading up to 1739).

It's really bad timetabling for us commuters trying to use CMB when the service from CMB is so much worse in the evening peak than in any other hour of the day. Now *if* the 1800 and 1812 both run, then you just about get away with it, but both have become very unreliable since the timetable change - in the case of the 1800 presumably due to being a 379 now. Not sure why the 1812 has suddenly started having so many issues.

This comment is lifted from the class 379 discussion, and it isn't the only example of discontent about the evening peak service at Cambridge North.

I have moved the discussion here because it is about the timetable, not just about the class 379s, though cancellations attributable to the class 379 introduction have clearly made things worse in recent weeks.

The root of the problem is not Great Northern but Greater Anglia, who provide 2tph terminating/starting trains and the Norwich trains at Cambridge North for most of the day. However there are no terminating/starting trains between 1658-1713 and 1827-1842.

This is bonkers and does real harm to Cambridge as a fast growing economy with a significant amount of employment near Cambridge North station.

We know roughly what to expect from Great Northern in the December 2025 timetable, because it has been in the ECML draft timetable. We don't know the changes that Greater Anglia will be making to fit in with the new ECML timetable, and whether the evening peak black hole will be addressed.

Looking at the current timetable, it may be that we don't even have to wait until December. There are possible quick wins through stopping 1H82 1707 Liverpool Street-Ely at Cambridge North, and running 5H82 1750 Ely-Cambridge ECS as a passenger train, with a Cambridge North stop.

I'm not normally an advocate of dragging politicians into issues like this, but this one might be an exception. In particular, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough has a new mayor, and this is just the sort of issue where the mayor ought to be intervening.

 

[MikeWM]

This comment is lifted from the class 379 discussion, and it isn't the only example of discontent about the evening peak service at Cambridge North.

I have moved the discussion here because it is about the timetable, not just about the class 379s, though cancellations attributable to the class 379 introduction have clearly made things worse in recent weeks.

The root of the problem is not Great Northern but Greater Anglia, who provide 2tph terminating/starting trains and the Norwich trains at Cambridge North for most of the day. However there are no terminating/starting trains between 1658-1713 and 1827-1842.

Thanks - I am rather at risk of taking the 379 discussion off-topic, so it is good to discuss this here!

Indeed, the GN service at CMB is 'normal' throughout (though with even more cancellations lately than usual, which make this problem much more stark). It is the missing GA services leaving these significant gaps that cause so much reliance on these GN services.

We know roughly what to expect from Great Northern in the December 2025 timetable, because it has been in the ECML draft timetable. We don't know the changes that Greater Anglia will be making to fit in with the new ECML timetable, and whether the evening peak black hole will be addressed.

Yes - and we know that GA will have to make at least some changes if the GN draft is what ends up running (as eg. they can't send a service non-stop through CMB at 1822 as they do currently, as GN have a Kings Lynn train calling then in the draft timetable...) Unfortunately we don't yet know the details of those changes.

Looking at the current timetable, it may be that we don't even have to wait until December. There are possible quick wins through stopping 1H82 1707 Liverpool Street-Ely at Cambridge North, and running 5H82 1750 Ely-Cambridge ECS as a passenger train, with a Cambridge North stop.

Agreed - I've been intermittently wittering on here for a couple of years now as to why 1H82 doesn't call at Cambridge North. I don't see any reason why it couldn't. (2H82 is right behind it, but I don't see why that couldn't run a minute or two later to accomodate a 1H82 call at CMB).

I'd not considered 5H82 in the other direction, but that does also look plausible to run in service and call at CMB. The XC 1L46 is quite close behind but there seems enough leeway to allow it.

 

[cactustwirly]

And thus a worsening train service for most major Cornish stations.

The journey is so slow anyway, it's hardly what you'd call an express service.

Some London services call at Hayle and Lostwithiel anyway