Declassified First Class on GWR

[Gaelan]

Odd to revive this thread now, I know, but what is the situation when services booked for standard-only stock (e.g 158s) are run with IETs? This often happens on the Worcester to Bristol run.

My understanding - though others will know better than me - is that first class is always declassified if the train isn't listed as "first class available" in the timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding - though others will know better than me - is that first class is always declassified if the train isn't listed as "first class available" in the timetable.

There's nothing in writing about that, but it is the convention used on most parts of the network. I don't know about these specific ones, I'd ask the guard.

It is also possible in this sort of case for First Class to simply be locked out of use and unavailable, or for staff use only.

 

[GWVillager]

My understanding - though others will know better than me - is that first class is always declassified if the train isn't listed as "first class available" in the timetable.

That would be my thinking, but GWR is often unusual in this regard. The IETs running former Castle diagrams do have first, which is the prime example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be my thinking, but GWR is often unusual in this regard. The IETs running former Castle diagrams do have first, which is the prime example.

Those are diagrammed as IETs, though, and thus show they have first class in the timetable.

But as I said there's nothing in writing that entitles this, it's just what usually happens.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I guess a slightly different answer to the OP - had a not so fun experience on a 5 car (should have been 10) evening peak out of Paddington a couple of weeks ago. But essentially the question of declassifying first class was totally taken out of staffs hands by the fact that the entire train (including first class) was full to bursting. I suspect there would have been a riot had they actually tried to enforce first class on that service!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Odd to revive this thread now, I know, but what is the situation when services booked for standard-only stock (e.g 158s) are run with IETs? This often happens on the Worcester to Bristol run.

First Class is available for the route even if not usually booked for that particular service, so it would most likely be in use to cater for first class passengers with flexible tickets.

 

[tiptoptaff]

GWR policy, whether it is publicly stated or not, is that First is automatically declassified where stock is working a diagram that isn't booked for first. So where its 800v158, the 800 will be fully declassified. This being because First is not sold on that service, so cannot be enforced.

Conversely, the IETs running Cardiff-Taunton/Penzance services are booked as such and so First is enforced, as First is sold for those services. They even went as far as to introduce First Class fares between stations that didn't have it previously, such as Severn Tunnel Jcn to Patchway

First Class is available for the route even if not usually booked for that particular service, so it would most likely be in use to cater for first class passengers with flexible tickets.

Incorrect in this instance. First not advertised on the service, First declassified, regardless of the stock working the train.

 

[GWVillager]

First Class is available for the route even if not usually booked for that particular service, so it would most likely be in use to cater for first class passengers with flexible tickets.

I assume the first class fares only refer to the XC section between Cheltenham and Bristol. There are no first tickets offered on the direct GWR services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I assume the first class fares only refer to the XC section between Cheltenham and Bristol. There are no first tickets offered on the direct GWR services.

Well there definitely are on Taunton bounds out of Cardiff, so maybe it’s different for the Gloucester.

 

[Sleepy]

The thing to remember on GWR Penzance - Cardiff/ Gloucester services that offer 1st class fares is you won't get any complimentary catering - as these services don't offer any form of catering (this is advised on GWR website)

 

[yorkie]

There's nothing in writing about that, but it is the convention used on most parts of the network.

So you keep saying, but if a train only conveys standard accommodation then it only conveys standard accommodation!

It is also possible in this sort of case for First Class to simply be locked out of use and unavailable, or for staff use only.

Yes in theory it could be locked/marked out of use, but the company cannot charge an additional fare for it.

GWR policy, whether it is publicly stated or not, is that First is automatically declassified where stock is working a diagram that isn't booked for first. So where its 800v158, the 800 will be fully declassified. This being because First is not sold on that service, so cannot be enforced.

Thanks for confirming.

Several years ago I was on an HST from Penzance , which terminated at Plymouth. The Guard erroneously tried to charge us a supplement. I contacted customer services by phone, who confirmed we were entitled to sit in the coach without charge. I put them onto he Guard, and the Guard was disrespectful towards the person on the other end, claiming it was 'my' (their) train and they set the rules.

Such behaviour could never happen in any line of work I've ever worked in; I would (rightly) expect to be sacked for that.

In hindsight, we should have paid up and got a refund and apology from the company.

 

[Towers]

Yes in theory it could be locked/marked out of use, but the company cannot charge an additional fare for it.

It’s not really practical for crew to ‘lock out’ first class on a five car IET, as one of the coaches is a “composite” - that is, half standard and half first. Whilst it is physically possible to lock the dividing doors closed, that would then necessitate taking the standard class half of the coach out of use as well for safety reasons (as there would then only be an escape route available in one direction), leaving effectively a three coach train. So, it is possible but very much unlikely!

 

[yorkie]

It’s not really practical for crew to ‘lock out’ first class on a five car IET, as one of the coaches is a “composite” - that is, half standard and half first. Whilst it is physically possible to lock the dividing doors closed, that would then necessitate taking the standard class half of the coach out of use as well for safety reasons; so it is possible but very much unlikely!

Yes absolutely; it's more of a theoretical position of @Bletchleyite's, which might possibly occur elsewhere. Maybe.

 

[tiptoptaff]

It's their policy to the point they used to use declassified 1st coaches as standard coaches in HST formations when they were short of stock

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes absolutely; it's more of a theoretical position of @Bletchleyite's, which might possibly occur elsewhere. Maybe.

I've never known it happen, it was just to highlight that the use of a train with First Class on a service that is timetabled Standard only does not entitle you to use First Class, it is possible to make it not available to anyone, either by locking it out or just walking through and asking all passengers to leave it.

 

[Falcon1200]

it is possible to make it not available to anyone, either by locking it out or just walking through and asking all passengers to leave it.

Might it be better if the Guard announced that the train had First Class seating although this was not timetabled, therefore anyone could sit there? Thus would give a few passengers a more positive travelling experience!

 

[Deepgreen]

My experience of GWR and first class over many years is that they simply don't know what they are doing regarding labelling, enforcement and so on. It has aways been the case on 'the railway' that first class areas on workings with no first class advertised are automatically declassified, but I suppose a TOC could choose to make themselves look stupid by not allowing anyone to use it.

 

[Momuss97]

Just assumed first is declassified during rush hour.

My commute to london is around an hour, first quickly fills up after my stop so I always travel first on my standard ticket. A few years of this and no trouble so far

 

[FGW_DID]

Just assumed first is declassified during rush hour.

My commute to london is around an hour, first quickly fills up after my stop so I always travel first on my standard ticket. A few years of this and no trouble so far

Perhaps we should rename this thread
“Confessions of a serial fare evader”

Fingers crossed you get gripped by an RPI!

 

[GWVillager]

Just assumed first is declassified during rush hour.

My commute to london is around an hour, first quickly fills up after my stop so I always travel first on my standard ticket. A few years of this and no trouble so far

First is certainly not declassified during rush hour. I’m amazed you’ve never been caught.

 

[Momuss97]

First is certainly not declassified during rush hour. I’m amazed you’ve never been caught.

Train is rammed with people standing all down the aisle, no way a conductor can walk through and check tickets.

Wouldn’t dare attempt this on the return journey though when it is less busy

Perhaps we should rename this thread
“Confessions of a serial fare evader”

Fingers crossed you get gripped by an RPI!

I never started off doing this.

Would just get annoyed when I’d get on the train and stand near the section of first class, just for the masses of people at the next stop to all pour into first class

 

[Railcar]

GWR lost me as a cusomer this year. The journeys home from holidays in Torquay in 2020 and 2021 were spoilt with trains cancelled and 5-car sets sent from the West instead of 10. Packed and with out the First declassified. Added to that, there was the practice of 'turning' a train so that it arrives at Paddington for the outward journey with all the seat reservations incorrect i.e. a booked forward-facing seat facing backwards.

 

[danielp]

I tested this on a recent Penzance to Cardiff run, specifically to see what they said.
We had a Castle HST from Penzance- no 1st class was available at the time of booking, or on the day.
At Plymouth, a 5-car IET was subbed.
We asked the TM if 1st was going to be declassified. He did not know, but asked.
Eventually, when we did the transfer, we set in 1st and continued the discussion.
We were told that we could pay to upgrade to 1st (even though the 1st fare was not available).
The TM said that this was because GWR charged 1st class fare from Plymouth (though not to Cardiff).
The price we were quoted was comedy- possibly more than £70 each- this was on a Thurs evening service, so it wasn't busy.

Later on, people came along and just sat in it, but weren't challenged (but they looked like they might kick off!!).

Looks like they don't know what they are doing, or are trying to skim money off customers.
I also got charged a 1st class upgrade that I later discovered was double the actual walk on 1st class fare.

I think GWR need scrutinising, as there seems to be a evidence that passengers may be being ripped off.

On the other hand, you can pick up a 1st class advance single Cardiff to Paddington for £57, which seems reasonable as you can use the lounges and there is a proper at seat service.

 

[Parallel]

I assume the first class fares only refer to the XC section between Cheltenham and Bristol. There are no first tickets offered on the direct GWR services.

I believe there are a couple of trains that offer first class provision between Bristol and Gloucester. There is an evening Penzance to Gloucester that offers it, and I think there is an IET service in the middle of the day that works up to Worcester that offers it too, as in, they’re advertised in the timetable.

For the GWR routes with no booked catering available, I wondered if a standard premium type upgrade would be more appropriate, but that’s probably for another thread.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Maybe a little off topic but having travelled first class in an IET from Pad to Redruth a few times, I personally feel its not worth paying the extra seating wise because of the quality. Better off in standard quiet carriage !
OK my experiences has been weekend/Bank Holiday but even if standard throughout, give me a Castle..
( GWR Staff ) .

 

[Craig1122]

Might it be better if the Guard announced that the train had First Class seating although this was not timetabled, therefore anyone could sit there? Thus would give a few passengers a more positive travelling experience!

SWR (also run by First) do this as a matter of routine. There's even a pre recorded "All seats on this service are standard class" message.

Was lovely when desiros were first introduced but ran on 'standard only' routes as few people realised!

 

[Snow1964]

Actually seems GWR don't want you to travel First Class on some services even when it is advertised.

As an example try booking First class on 05:35 from Bradford on Avon to Westbury single (the through London train) on GWRs website, will only offer the standard class fare. Other ticket retailers allow you to select first class.