Please could someone tell me what the default route is from Kentish Town to Clapham Junction? Is it walking to Kentish Town West and getting an Overground train from there? The fastest route is the first alternative route via London Victoria
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Default routing between Kentish Town and Clapham Junction?
- Thread starter infobleep
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
The first option on the single fare finder is via Zone 1, that is Kentish Town to Embankment / Embankment to West Brompton / West Brompton to Clapham Junction, although other connections to the West London Line are clearly available. Kentish Town to Denmark Hill / Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction would also work.
Cheaper routes via West Hampstead Thameslink / West Hampstead (Overground) and Camden Town / Camden Road.
The DJ
Member
Northern Line to Waterloo and then SWR
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 15,349
That seems a strange route; Kentish Town to Euston then Victoria line to Vauxhall and on to Clapham Junction would be more logical.
More logical yes, but going via Vauxhall (or Battersea Power Station / Battersea Park) would trigger the mixed mode premium and costs an extra £1.70 off peak.
If the journey times fitted, Kentish Town to East Croydon / East Croydon to Clapham Junction avoids barriers and would be charged the default as well.
Nope, mixed mode premium again, although clearly it is the easiest journey to actually make.
Last edited:
"The Underground."
Apologies, that might not help but that's certainly a journey where I expect very few people have ever considered permitted routes!
I'll be intrigued to learn though
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 15,349
And people say National Rail fares are complicated!
This is the cheapest Via zone 1 and not so slow option
Late to this. The default route is basically any route which is not defined by an alternative route. In this case that means:
1) Not changing between LU and NR at Victoria or Waterloo (or Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, London Bridge or Waterloo East)
2) Not changing between LU and NR at Vauxhall (or Battersea Power Station/Battersea Park or Battersea Power Station/Queenstown Road)
3) Not avoiding Zone 1 via Camden Town/Camden Road and Willesden Junction
Although other options are available, changing between Clapham North and Clapham High Street would be my recommended route if speed were key. If cost was key then follow the directions for the avoiding zone 1 route.
Oyster fares do not include walking at the start or end of the journey. If you do this then it becomes a different journey. In this case the new default route becomes the avoiding zone 1 option above, without the need to walk between the Camden Stations.
Some routes I'd not thought of. As it was gone 22:40 on a Sunday I took a nixed mode route via Waterloo.
.
I reckon I hit the daily off-peak discounted cap anyway so the addition wasn't too much.
Indeed. I am fascinated by default routes as there are enough such as this one which aren't obvious to me.
Thanks for increasing my understanding.
I was at Euston at one point and I was looking up London Euston Rail to Kentish Town West but no fare could be found.
I guess they expect one to just get the tube to Kentish Town.
Yes. That's a massive double-back via Willesden Junction. If you actually did it you'd probably be charged the correct fare, but you'd probably only consider it if the Underground was on strike.
I went from Clapham Junction to Bond Steet via Shepberds Bush earlier. That us surely more elongated than going via Waterloo, which is mixed mode.
I could have gone to Waterloo or Victoria using that route too, which is definitely much longer.
I'm not quite sure what point you're making. TfL will usually allow a route using only their services.
The Euston to Kentish Town West issue is because the journey is considered illogical. It's a bit like Tower Hill to Tower Gateway, no-one is likely to do it.
I see an assumption here that the default route implies the easiest, quickest or most obvious route, but that is not a consideration at all! It is simply the fare that is charged in the absence of any intermediate pink reader or OSI touches that have been defined as constituting an alternative route.
There are many journeys where the default route is one that few people would do for preference.
There are many journeys where the default route is one that few people would do for preference.
In particular there are a few key points here.
1. Rail services run by TFL (TFL rail and London overground) are eligible for the cheaper "TFL" fares.
2. London overground services mostly skirt round the center of London rather than running into it. They do pass through zone 1 though.
3. Most of the central London stations have the Rail portion and and underground portion of the station behind separate gatelines, whereas many of the stations on the outskirts share gatelines and sometimes even platforms between underground and rail services. It is perfectly possible to make this journey using only TFL services without passing through any intermediate barriers. For example I believe there are no barriers between underground and overground at West Brompton.
4. Pink readers are only used for "avoiding zone 1" routes.
Put these together and the default fare for Journeys from Clapham junction to tube stations on the other side of London ends up being the "TFL via zone 1" fare. Even though few people are likely to actually travel that way.
I can't seem to find sufficient detail online to be 100% sure but I think kentish town itself may have a shared gateline, explaining the same fares being quoted for both "kentish town rail station" and "kentish town underground station".
1. Rail services run by TFL (TFL rail and London overground) are eligible for the cheaper "TFL" fares.
2. London overground services mostly skirt round the center of London rather than running into it. They do pass through zone 1 though.
3. Most of the central London stations have the Rail portion and and underground portion of the station behind separate gatelines, whereas many of the stations on the outskirts share gatelines and sometimes even platforms between underground and rail services. It is perfectly possible to make this journey using only TFL services without passing through any intermediate barriers. For example I believe there are no barriers between underground and overground at West Brompton.
4. Pink readers are only used for "avoiding zone 1" routes.
Put these together and the default fare for Journeys from Clapham junction to tube stations on the other side of London ends up being the "TFL via zone 1" fare. Even though few people are likely to actually travel that way.
I can't seem to find sufficient detail online to be 100% sure but I think kentish town itself may have a shared gateline, explaining the same fares being quoted for both "kentish town rail station" and "kentish town underground station".
Last edited:
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 15,349
Kentish Town does have a shared gateline.
Not really a "loophole" though. As I noted you can go via East Croydon as well. The point is that you are travelling between a start point of Kentish Town and an end point Clapham Junction. How you do so is irrelevant to anyone so long as you don't pass any barriers.
My point is, isn't the route from Clapham Junction to Victoria via Shevperds Bush illogical? It's only 5 minutes on a Southern branded train.
I hadn't considered the shared gateline aspect.
Last edited:
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 15,349
It is but you will still be charged the default fare (unless you take too long and incur incomplete journey charges, if that's what they are called).
Without any context on why you start at Kentish Town, or the ticket type..
So on assumptions.. Its Zone 1/2 travel and a travelcard, your routes pretty flexible
My default would be to continue to St Pancras Thameslink, Victoria Line to Victoria and the first train to Clapham.
You could do Northern to Warren st, then Victoria to Victoria, and hence a train, that would be quicker.
an all rail solution.., Straight through to London Bridge, head to Waterloo East and out of Waterloo.
Peak £3, op £2.50 with Oystercard, tfl only,
Peak £4.80 op £4.20 if using Victoria or Waterloo (or Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, London Bridge or Waterloo East)
drops to £1.70 if via Hampstead / Willesdon junction (Tfl rail route around zone 1)
never use single around London myself, usually too many places to visit
So on assumptions.. Its Zone 1/2 travel and a travelcard, your routes pretty flexible
My default would be to continue to St Pancras Thameslink, Victoria Line to Victoria and the first train to Clapham.
You could do Northern to Warren st, then Victoria to Victoria, and hence a train, that would be quicker.
an all rail solution.., Straight through to London Bridge, head to Waterloo East and out of Waterloo.
Peak £4.80 op £4.20 if using Victoria or Waterloo (or Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, London Bridge or Waterloo East)
drops to £1.70 if via Hampstead / Willesdon junction (Tfl rail route around zone 1)
never use single around London myself, usually too many places to visit
Last edited:
A few minor points need adding to some statements being made in this thread:
Yes and no. TfL Rail and Overground services from Liverpool Street are sometimes subject to higher than the usual TfL fares, particularly off-peak.
Not necessarily. Rayners Lane can be used to say that you've avoided any combination of zones 1, 2 or 3. Highbury and Islington, which is in zone 2, can be used on a zone 2 to zone 2 journey to say you've avoided zone 3. See Finsbury Park to Hackney Downs as an example.
Small point, but you can't leave the PAYG area.
Yes, Clapham Junction to Victoria LU via Shepherd's Bush is illogical, you'd change at West Brompton instead. As I say, TfL will usually offer a TfL-only alternative to a National Rail journey. Euston to Kentish Town is already TfL so via Willesden Junction to Kentish Town West isn't offering a cheaper alternative. To see just how illogical it is, take a look at https://www.oysterfares.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/London-Connections-Map.pdf.
SE%Traveller
Member
Kentish Town to Denmark Hill (Thameslink). Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction (Overground). Though Thameslink are running about 3 of the former a day at present... Never thought i'd miss First Capital Connect!
Indeed you will but why is this reasonable but a journey from London Euston to Kentish Town West isn't? I guess it comes down to @MikeWh point that they will mostly provide a non-National Rail alternative regardless of how reasonable it is.
I forgot about changing at West Brompton but then I was going to Bond Street.
I didn't think about Kentish Town Rail station being part of the TfL fares and not mixed-mode.
London Euston (National Rail) to Kentish Town West can only realistically be made via Willesden Junction and is probably quicker to walk. Moreover, Euston to Kentish Town itself is direct on the Northern Line. Although there is nothing in the Single Fare Finder, the system will calculate a fare if the journey is made.
Victoria (Underground) to Clapham Junction via West Brompton is entirely reasonable for a TfL fare as that is the route that would be taken if a map showing only TfL services is consulted. Shepherds Bush is irrelevant.
For what it is worth London Paddington (National Rail) to Liverpool Street (Underground) is charged as a Zone 1 single even though the only way to make the journey is to go via Ealing Broadway (I actually went to Hayes & Harlington in Zone 5). Logical routes are not that important so long as maximum journey times aren't breached and there is a route without barriers.
Last edited:
You are right that Shepberds Bush is irrelevant. I'd forgotten about West Brompton as I'd been travelling to Bond Street
So for fiction sake, if the journey between Euston and Kentish Town was National Rail only, would TfL enable the route from London to Kentish Town West so there is a TfL only route?
Careful. Kentish Town is the limit of TfL fares through the core. The other side it's Elephant and Castle. Denmark Hill is National Rail fares, but because they can't tell if you go that way they give you the benefit of the doubt.
I think this will be a fare that has been set up for Crossrail.
Possibly, but did you look at the map to see the size of the detour you're making? The diagramatic map really doesn't do it justice.
No, I didn't. I was just looking at the cartogram (diagrammatic) map and I just figured out going via Shepherds Bush is cheaper than via Victoria, so I did that as I had time to do so.
Yes, that's fine. In terms of the journey you actually made (Clapham Junction to Bond Street) that routeing is entirely reasonable.
In terms of your hypothetical journey from Euston to Kentish Town West, did you look at the map link I posted earlier? Here it is again: https://www.oysterfares.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/London-Connections-Map.pdf. Do you see how via Willesden Junction is about 6 times the distance compared to using the Northern line?
- Status