Defibrillators at stations

[danielcanning]

Coming home last night on the Tube I was very surprised to read on a notice that Highgate tube does not have a defibrillator and instead the nearest one is situated in a pub. Is this normal, I thought all manned rail and underground stations had a defibrillator on site.

 

[Desirolly]

Every single defib that was installed on the Herford Loop has been stolen and there’s not been much effort to replace them so maybe not

 

[Lockwood]

I really don't understand streaking defibs - is there a resale value? Can you flog them down the local pub like a TV?

Why not replace them in a lockable cabinet and register them with The Circuit? Give station staff and the help point centre the code as well.

Person uses help point, asks station staff for help, or dials 999 because they need tlit then they get the code. They want to nick it? It's a bit harder to do.


All the arrests I have been to have shared a theme: early defibrillator = success, late defibrillator = unsuccessful outcome

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

I really don't understand streaking defibs - is there a resale value? Can you flog them down the local pub like a TV?

Why not replace them in a lockable cabinet and register them with The Circuit? Give station staff and the help point centre the code as well.

Person uses help point, asks station staff for help, or dials 999 because they need tlit then they get the code. They want to nick it? It's a bit harder to do.


All the arrests I have been to have shared a theme: early defibrillator = success, late defibrillator = unsuccessful outcome

There is defo a resale value abroad in them also in the parts but mostly it's mindless vandalism

 

[Runningaround]

I really don't understand streaking defibs - is there a resale value? Can you flog them down the local pub like a TV?

Why not replace them in a lockable cabinet and register them with The Circuit? Give station staff and the help point centre the code as well.

Person uses help point, asks station staff for help, or dials 999 because they need tlit then they get the code. They want to nick it? It's a bit harder to do.


All the arrests I have been to have shared a theme: early defibrillator = success, late defibrillator = unsuccessful outcome

How much longer would that take? Defibrillators are designed to be quickly assessable you don't want to be searching for help points, staff and memorising codes. Person needs help, find defibrillator and use with the easy-to-understand instructions. Perhaps a charge of endangering life could be added to a charge of theft as a deterrent. Perhaps they can be placed in better places and not to well hidden from view as to be easy targets to steal.
I'd guess if anyone was selling one down the pub, they'd have to be pretty certain that the landlord and its regulars weren't going to be disgusted by what the thief or seller and would be so disgusted they wouldn't shop with them there and then. I know what my reaction would be if I was offered one in a pub it'd be similar if I'd been offered a stolen mobility scooter.
Before almost everyone had a mobile phone a phone box would have been the first port of call for help, if they were vandalised often, they'd either be fixed or removed.

 

[Scott1]

I really don't understand streaking defibs - is there a resale value? Can you flog them down the local pub like a TV?

Why not replace them in a lockable cabinet and register them with The Circuit? Give station staff and the help point centre the code as well.

The ones stolen on my patch were all in locked, steel, cabinets. Didn't stop them.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

The ones I’ve seen require a code that’s given upon 999 being called. Of course, there’s nothing to stop a scumbag just calling and pretending someone’s had a heart attack.

We all know what a particularly despicable crime this is, so I won’t subject you all to a rant about it. But perhaps a manslaughter charge would be appropriate in a situation where someone dies because a defibrillator has been stolen.

 

[AVK17]

I thought all manned rail and underground stations had a defibrillator on site.

I can’t speak for the underground but not all staffed National Rail stations have defibrillators.

 

[skyhigh]

How much longer would that take? Defibrillators are designed to be quickly assessable you don't want to be searching for help points, staff and memorising codes. Person needs help, find defibrillator and use with the easy-to-understand instructions.

Defibs locked with a code that has to be requested from a 999 operator is a perfectly normal thing. It happens in loads of places - there are 2 in my village and they are both locked that way.

 

[Lockwood]

Yes, it adds a small delay to the chain of survival. But you'll be wanting an ambulance anyway, so having to call one to get the code for the AED acts as a prompt to do that (you get people so focused on CPR that they delay calling for extra skills)
Or, in the scenario I mentioned, getting station staff to grant access also gets you a second person to help. You need a second person. After a couple of minutes, your compressions may start to be less effective. With an AED attached, the analyse/shock gives a regular interval to swap people around

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Yes, it adds a small delay to the chain of survival. But you'll be wanting an ambulance anyway, so having to call one to get the code for the AED acts as a prompt to do that (you get people so focused on CPR that they delay calling for extra skills)
Or, in the scenario I mentioned, getting station staff to grant access also gets you a second person to help. You need a second person. After a couple of minutes, your compressions may start to be less effective. With an AED attached, the analyse/shock gives a regular interval to swap people around

CPR is incredibly exhausting even the most ultra fit person would struggle to do more that a couple of minutes. In regards to train stations major bleed kits should also be available.

 

[Lockwood]

I think that's part of why Protocol C wasn't adopted - 100 compressions, rhythm check, 100 compressions, shock, 100, check, 100, shock.... That was really exhausting!

I can see major bleed kits being out in at big name stations. Perhaps a wider roll out of things like a Tournikey (other brands are available) as they are designed to be used by public, are faitlrly cheap, and have no expiry.

 

[Elecman]

CPR is incredibly exhausting even the most ultra fit person would struggle to do more that a couple of minutes. In regards to train stations major bleed kits should also be available.

I’ve done CPR solo for 20-30 minutes middle of nowhere so no Defib was certainly glad when the Rapid Response Solo Paramedic arrived

 

[Mojo]

Coming home last night on the Tube I was very surprised to read on a notice that Highgate tube does not have a defibrillator and instead the nearest one is situated in a pub. Is this normal, I thought all manned rail and underground stations had a defibrillator on site.

There’s certainly no requirement or need to have one on site. Just over half of LU stations have a defib. There’s a map here: https://www.mcdfirstaidtraining.co.uk/london-underground-aed-map/

 

[DC1989]

Is there any data anywhere to the total amount of public defibs installed versus their usage? Total amount of lives saved etc

 

[Tim_UK]

I really don't understand streaking defibs - is there a resale value? Can you flog them down the local pub like a TV?

The batteries and pads aren't cheap and both have expiry dates. There is also a problem where one of the more well deployed brands had a problem set of batteries, so they are all being replaced at £100 ish pounds each (a good discount) and the orgs that host need to pay.

A lot of organisations fund raise to get a defib or write it into their safety case. But don't realise there are time limited parts in them that need replacing. I'm only aware of stuff being stolen. Not aware of people saying 'I got a new battery for my defib in the pub'.

There are also a whole hoard of volunteers who travel around checking defibs are still in place, in date, and "rescue ready".

I suspect some (small) proportion of the 'stolen defibs' are actually "told to get the defib by 999, but they totally didn't think about taking it back when they realised it wasn't needed". Or even was needed, but the ambulance crew or first responder arrived first with their kit. They are taken out of their boxes more than you'd think. I know ambulance crews are aware of this problem, but their first priority will be patient not what got left behind.

I've met 2 people who have had cardiac arrests while healthy and out and about, and are still alive years later. In the UK, around 30,000 people a year in the UK are treated by ambulance service for sudden cardiac arrest. All the effort is worth it. Good read here: https://www.resus.org.uk/library/20...elines/epidemiology-cardiac-arrest-guidelines

Is there any data anywhere to the total amount of public defibs installed versus their usage? Total amount of lives saved etc

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/med/research/ctu/trials/ohcao/publications/epidemiologyreports/ohca_epidemiological_report_2020_-_england_overview.pdf

It's graphicaly, so hard to paste here. About 1/4 of cases initially in a shockable heart rythym. Public defibs used in 4.4% of cases. 2,497 lives saved.

Links to a whole load more publications here: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/med/research/ctu/trials/ohcao/publications/epidemiologyreports/

The research really ongoing.

 

[thaitransit]

Some regional long distance trains in Australia have Defibrillators, Industrial grade first aid kits on board as well as satellite phones for any dire emergency on board.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

The batteries and pads aren't cheap and both have expiry dates. There is also a problem where one of the more well deployed brands had a problem set of batteries, so they are all being replaced at £100 ish pounds each (a good discount) and the orgs that host need to pay.

A lot of organisations fund raise to get a defib or write it into their safety case. But don't realise there are time limited parts in them that need replacing. I'm only aware of stuff being stolen. Not aware of people saying 'I got a new battery for my defib in the pub'.

There are also a whole hoard of volunteers who travel around checking defibs are still in place, in date, and "rescue ready".

I suspect some (small) proportion of the 'stolen defibs' are actually "told to get the defib by 999, but they totally didn't think about taking it back when they realised it wasn't needed". Or even was needed, but the ambulance crew or first responder arrived first with their kit. They are taken out of their boxes more than you'd think. I know ambulance crews are aware of this problem, but their first priority will be patient not what got left behind.

Another issue is they regularly go with patients to hospital and end up within some form of black I know at least 1 UK retailer who has lost approx 8 Automatic electronic defibrillators in this exact situation in the last 2 years.

 

[High Dyke]

A bit O/T, but had cause to access an AED a few months ago, at my local football club. A chap in the bar went into arrest. I knew the machine was in the treatment room, but needed the access code. The staff member working the bar didn't know we had the device in the stadium. Seemingly the bar manager didn't consider one necessary. The person concerned made a recovery.

I note that Network Rail are now introducing them into their maintenance vans.

 

[Elecman]

Another issue is they regularly go with patients to hospital and end up within some form of black I know at least 1 UK retailer who has lost approx 8 Automatic electronic defibrillators in this exact situation in the last 2 years.

There is no Reason for the Defibrillator to go with the ambulance as the pads can transfer from defibrillator to defibrillator

 

[Tim_UK]

Another issue is they regularly go with patients to hospital and end up within some form of black I know at least 1 UK retailer who has lost approx 8 Automatic electronic defibrillators in this exact situation in the last 2 years.

If used, they should go with the patient. Some have a data logger that can be downloaded.

There is no Reason for the Defibrillator to go with the ambulance as the pads can transfer from defibrillator to defibrillator

The pads are different for every make.

If you go defib, ambulance, hospital, then likely you get 3 sets used. You might be lucky but it’s unlikely