Definition Merseytravel City Line

[Statto]

You've got to bear in mind that it was created back when BR ran a local Lime St - Crewe AC unit service that stopped at Mossley Hill etc. Whether Ditton was a saveaway station back then I've no idea (Hough green and Hooton were both in Cheshire and could use saveaways). If not Allerton in its pre South Parkway days was the boundary.

Ditton was never in the Saveaway area, the Saveaway ticket boundary on the Liverpool-Crewe line was Allerton, plus i think Ditton was peak time only trains by the time it was shut, so Saveaways weren't valid for travel anyway, also, Saveaway used to have the afternoon 4-6pm peak restriction as well before that was scrapped early to mid 00s

 

[Manchester77]

I do always feel that the Mersey Rail lines could be a bit more over the top and have more than three so as to, not only simplify lines but to show different services along the same track - imo the case over the Wirral Line going to places with different identities

 

[Calderfornian]

....I always thought it would have been logical to put Bryn station in merseyside...

Blimey, there would be hand to hand combat on the streets if they did that!

 

[B&I]

The biggest travel to work flows in the 2011 census from St Helens and Halton boroughs were to Warrington, from Warrington it was to Halton, from Wigan to Bolton with Warrington second. The prevalence of long distance commuting often seems to be overestimated, especially by those tasked with improving transport in the north.

Anyone who has tried to drive round the area at peak time will know how much potential there is for better transport. I'd suggest something like a Stoke-Blackpool regional, followed by new stations along its route where needed, then re-opening St Helens Junction to Central with a shuttle to Warrington (and a service over Chat Moss to Manchester), and eventually re-opening some sort of St Helens to Ditton route

 

[B&I]

Ho ho ho! Because of course Merseyrail has so much experience of running diesel trains and HV AC electric trains, not to mention multiple interfaces with other TOCs. Oh wait...

Whilst Northern have never, ever, for one moment made a complete dog's breakfast of running their part of the network.

A 2 year old with a basic grounding in Brio wooden trainsets would be better at running local services than Northern

 

[KevinTurvey]

Moving the topic on a few months - what is the plan for the Halton Curve fares structure when these start at the end of the year - Will it be possible to travel say from Mossley Hill to Chester on a Saveaway via Runcorn, or will it be about £10 for a similar journey of this length, meaning everyone will still travel via Hooton?

I suspect if Merseytravel fares were ever to be available to Runcorn, passenger numbers would increase...

 

[Eccles1983]

Whilst Northern have never, ever, for one moment made a complete dog's breakfast of running their part of the network.

A 2 year old with a basic grounding in Brio wooden trainsets would be better at running local services than Northern

Utter drivel.

Considering the sheer amount of local services that get ran with total lack of priority to any other form of rail company Northern dont do as bad a job as made out.

They havent been great of late - much of which is out of their control. But considering the tools they have to work with, they dont do any worse than any other company.

Stop reading the press and start understanding the complexity of the system. Then you may enlighten yourself a little.

 

[Eccles1983]

And while your there try to compare apples with apples.

A self contained network of all stoppers v mixed traffic over hundreds of miles.

Even the trainees in Northern sign more milage than the entire Merseyrail network.

 

[PR1Berske]

Why is Wallasey Grove Road in a different font?

I love that nothing gets past this forum, not an inch.

 

[fowler9]

Moving the topic on a few months - what is the plan for the Halton Curve fares structure when these start at the end of the year - Will it be possible to travel say from Mossley Hill to Chester on a Saveaway via Runcorn, or will it be about £10 for a similar journey of this length, meaning everyone will still travel via Hooton?

I suspect if Merseytravel fares were ever to be available to Runcorn, passenger numbers would increase...

I am going to say I doubt it. By rail going via Runcorn to Chester the Merseytravel boundary falls significantly short of the destination. Be made up if it happens though. It would make the lads annual Christmas night out in Chester cheaper for a few of us.

 

[urbophile]

I am going to say I doubt it. By rail going via Runcorn to Chester the Merseytravel boundary falls significantly short of the destination. Be made up if it happens though. It would make the lads annual Christmas night out in Chester cheaper for a few of us.

Except that now Halton is part of the Liverpool City Region (aka Greater Merseyside) there is no reason not to include it in the Merseytravel fares structure. Adding Frodsham and Helsby would be no more of an anomaly than Hooton to Chester.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The biggest travel to work flows in the 2011 census from St Helens and Halton boroughs were to Warrington, from Warrington it was to Halton, from Wigan to Bolton with Warrington second. The prevalence of long distance commuting often seems to be overestimated, especially by those tasked with improving transport in the north.

The trouble with that information is that it's borough to borough, not town to town. Wigan borough to Warrington borough will include plenty from the likes of Leigh and Golborne to Risley/Birchwood but numbers from Wigan town to Warrington town are minimal. As for overestimating long-distance commuting you should have a look at the numbers using trains between Wigan and Manchester and the level of over-crowding even just departing Wigan.

Whilst Northern have never, ever, for one moment made a complete dog's breakfast of running their part of the network.

I don't believe I claimed any differently.

A 2 year old with a basic grounding in Brio wooden trainsets would be better at running local services than Northern

In which case I trust you applied for Northern's recent controller vacancy: you appear to be adequately qualified.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the fare structure between Liverpool and Chester via Halton Curve, could Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive products be used on this route with the condition that intending passengers cannot board or alight at Runcorn, Frodsham, and Helsby?

My suggestion is based on when I used to reside in my native West Midlands, there was a bus route (59/90, previously the 161/171 both operated by West Midlands Travel) that ran a circular route between Birmingham and Coleshill. As Coleshill was outside of the West Midlands PTE, it was publicly advertised that passengers may travel with the various PTE products between Chelmsley Wood and Castle Bromwich, provided that they did not board or alight along the section of the route that was outwith the PTE area.

 

[emoaconr]

Except that now Halton is part of the Liverpool City Region (aka Greater Merseyside) there is no reason not to include it in the Merseytravel fares structure. Adding Frodsham and Helsby would be no more of an anomaly than Hooton to Chester.

Absolutely, I always thought the intention was for Halton to become fully integrated into Merseytravel but as yet this has not been fully achieved. The Merseytravel 'M' logo is appearing on Halton bus stops and the under 18s bus product "MyTicket" fully integrates Merseyside and Halton. Halton has become integrated in other aspects of local government (effectively becoming the sixth borough of Merseyside, in all but name...!) but transport is still not fully there. Of course, Halton legally remains a borough of the ceremonial county of Cheshire, regardless of how well integrated with the LCR it becomes. Halton is in this awkward situation where some of its services are integrated with the rest of Cheshire (police, fire etc) and some are moving closer to LCR.

In terms of railway, I've seen no attempt to integrate Halton with Merseyside, though I would obviously very much support a move to include it within Merseytravel products and becoming another 'zone' within the PTE system. The move to reopen the Halton Curve to regular traffic has been largely driven by Merseytravel PTE, and I would find it an absolutely bonkers situation where Chester would be served by two services to the same destination with two different fare schemes. We know Chester is not in Merseyside but exists within the Merseytravel PTE zonal structure due to the unique Merseyrail concession; it could be possible that sponsored tickets via Wirral Line would be marked 'Merseyrail only', but I really hope that some consideration is made of this by all of the bodies involved.

The City Line situation is certainly going to become more complex, and I hope that some attempt can be made to simplify the mess of red lines that are going to ensue.

 

[73001]

Regarding the fare structure between Liverpool and Chester via Halton Curve, could Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive products be used on this route with the condition that intending passengers cannot board or alight at Runcorn, Frodsham, and Helsby?

My suggestion is based on when I used to reside in my native West Midlands, there was a bus route (59/90, previously the 161/171 both operated by West Midlands Travel) that ran a circular route between Birmingham and Coleshill. As Coleshill was outside of the West Midlands PTE, it was publicly advertised that passengers may travel with the various PTE products between Chelmsley Wood and Castle Bromwich, provided that they did not board or alight along the section of the route that was outwith the PTE area.

This was in place in Merseyside when I was a revenue inspector with the Merseytravel (also on buses though). The 300/302 had a lengthy mid-section running through Lancashire but Merseyside passes were valid as long as you only got on and off in Merseyside. There doesn't seem any reason then that this couldn't happen with the trains but it would take a bit of policing.