Delay Repay advice - slightly complicated claim

[gpmartin]

My father travelled from Tamworth to London Euston and back last Saturday (2 November), using a London North Western Only Off Peak Return priced at £27.05 (with Senior Railcard). He was heavily delayed on both legs, and I wonder if I could ask the forum's advice on his entitlement to Delay Repay compensation.

On the outward journey, he caught the 10:20 from Tamworth. This was terminated at Rugby due to train crew issues (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P45187/2019-11-02). Passengers were told that there would be a replacement bus (though there was no sign of it), or that they could travel via Northampton instead. The via-Northampton service was itself running late, and my father needed to be in London promptly; he therefore purchased a further off peak single from Rugby to London (£29.65 with Railcard) so that he could catch a late-running Virgin service. Looking at Realtime Trains, it seems that this was a good decision, as it looks like many of the slow services via Northampton were themselves terminating at Northampton, though I can't be sure of this because he took the Virgin service instead.

On the way back, things were even worse. He planned to take the 19:33 from Euston to Tamworth. This was cancelled (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P44638/2019-11-02), as apparently were pretty much all the fast (via Trent Valley) LNR services that evening. Passengers were advised to travel via Birmingham. By the time they got there, the last connnecting service had departed, so alternative transport was arranged by the (apparently very helpful) staff at Birmingham New Street. He eventually arrived back at 00:15 (against a scheduled arrival time of 20:56).

For the return leg, I think it's fairly straightforward - he is owed compensation equivalent to the full fare paid of £27.05, due to the >2 hours' delay (more than three hours, in fact!). For the outward leg, I'm not so clear. I presume that the journey doesn't count as being abandoned, even though he did de facto abandon it at Rugby, because he went on to use the return portion of the ticket to return that evening. It's difficult to calculate how delayed he would have been if he had stayed on LNR instead of resorting to paying for a new ticket, though I think it's safe to say it would have been at least an hour. However, I'm not sure whether this is relevant or not given it doesn't reflect the journey he actually took.

I'm wondering therefore what he should claim for Delay Repay. Clearly he will get the full amount paid for the ticket back for the awful return leg on its own, but is he entitled to more - either Delay Repay or a refund of the extra money paid for the single from Rugby to Euston?

It's only small amounts in the grand scheme of things, but given quite how awful a journey it turned out to be, I'm very keen to help him to extract every penny he can from LNR!

 

[Haywain]

He should claim for the return journey and, essentially, forget about the outward journey. There may be an entitlement to a partial refund for the outward but that will only reduce the amount of the claim for the return, so there isn’t a benefit.

 

[gray1404]

On the onward journey what time did he arrive in Euston compared to his scheduled arrival time?

 

[hkstudent]

May I know what is the arrival time of OP's father to Euston with the Virgin trains. How much did the Virgin Trains delay against its schedule?

Has he taken this 1122 Virgin Service to London Euston?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P58235/2019-11-02

If so, I think OP's father has been de-facto delayed by 32 minutes. If he has taken a later one, there may be longer delays.

 

[Belperpete]

As you say, a standard delay-repay claim would be best for the return journey.

For the outward journey, I fundamentally disagree with the advice not to complain. The important point is that your father was delayed, and is out of pocket - he is fully entitled to complain and ask for appropriate compensation. If he doesn't put in a claim, then he definitely won't get anything. If he does put in a claim, at least he has a chance of getting something. I have had many 'goodwill payments' over the years.

in his shoes I would put in a completely separate customer complaint to LNR (not a delay repay claim) for the outward journey, explaining what train he caught, and what happened (no sign of advised replacement bus, late running Northampton service, need to get to London quickly, purchase of replacement ticket to use Virgin service, etc.). State what time he should have arrived at Euston, and what time he would have arrived had he caught the late-running via-Northampton train he was advised to catch (something like Open Train Times will easily show you how it ran on the day). I would ask for a refund of the cost of the additional ticket he bought. It is a not unreasonable request, and even though it is unlikely they will pay it, that is no reason not to ask for it - again, if you don't ask, you definitely won't get. They are more likely to instead pay based as a delay-repay claim, as that will be less. Even if he isn't entitled to much/anything based on delay repay, they may still pay a goodwill gesture.

 

[yorkie]

I would make one claim to West Midlands Trains; I would state that the outward journey (on that ticket) was effectively abandoned at Rugby due to the likely delay being greater than an hour. For the return journey I would state the facts and that this was a 2 hour delay.

Whether or not the outward journey will actually get any compensation is unclear; some train companies have a policy of not compensating greater than the value of the ticket - which of course will be obtained with the return portion alone. But it's worth mentioning it in anyway.

As for the possibility of a 'complaint' being made, presumably the complaint would be that ticket acceptance was not in place and that the purchase of an additional ticket to travel on Virgin should not have been necessary. I think it is worth mentioning this fact, but there is no guarantee they will compensate for any additional fare that was voluntarily purchased.

Yes a goodwill gesture could be requested, in addition to 100% compensation, but if they say "no" then it's probably best to drop the matter.

If you just make a straightforward Delay Repay claim, most companies pay these within a matter of days. But for a complex claim asking for goodwill gestures and talk of abandoned journeys and additional tickets purchased, you could be waiting a long time for a response, and there is no guarantee they will agree to pay anything more than what you would get with a simple DR claim. If they do not, you then have to decide whether to accept defeat or invest even more time disputing it.

 

[gray1404]

I've been in a very similar position travelling back to Liverpool. I needed to be at a family funeral so my arrival was time critical. I claimed delay repay against the time I would have arrived if I'd stuck to LNW. When I complained they said there was no entitlement to a refund of the additional ticket I purchased from Stafford as there wasn't ticket acceptance in place and they are not liable for additional costs.

However, I did successfully claim delay repay based on what time I would have arrived in Liverpool had I stuck to their trains. This covered the cost of the additional ticket so I was happy.

There is a possibility if the VT leg was also delayed then the passenger may be able to claim delay repay on that too.

 

[111-111-1]

If the OP can show the outward would have arrived late enough at Euston to get a full refund on the outward would they be better to put in a delay repay for the whole trip without making mention of the VT train and use the refund to subsidise the VT ticket?

 

[Haywain]

Interesting to see that 2 posters are advocating making a fraudulent claim for the outward journey.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting to see that 2 posters are advocating making a fraudulent claim for the outward journey.

I can see both points of view, but making it two separate pieces of correspondence (each not referencing the other) might well be interpreted as not being made under good faith in order to get what the company may see as more compensation thanks due, so I also advise against this.

The question over whether a customer is due more than the overall price of a ticket in Delay Relay compensation is one that has dropped up in several different threads recently, and I don't think we have a conclusive answer.

If I was the OP I would either make a simple claim and avoid potentially wasting time with a complex claim or I would get everything in one claim with full details and then it's up to the company (WMT) to decide how to treat it; they may be generous under the circumstances.

Definitely avoid doing anything that may be interpreted as fraudulent.

 

[111-111-1]

If the OP can show the outward would have arrived late enough at Euston to get a full refund on the outward would they be better to put in a delay repay for the whole trip without making mention of the VT train and use the refund to subsidise the VT ticket?

Reading the OP again maybe take the full refund from the return journey and forget about the outward journey delay repay. The VT ticket effectively is a couple of quid for the whole return trip.

 

[hkstudent]

I can see both points of view, but making it two separate pieces of correspondence (each not referencing the other) might well be interpreted as not being made under good faith in order to get what the company may see as more compensation thanks due, so I also advise against this.

The question over whether a customer is due more than the overall price of a ticket in Delay Relay compensation is one that has dropped up in several different threads recently, and I don't think we have a conclusive answer.

If I was the OP I would either make a simple claim and avoid potentially wasting time with a complex claim or I would get everything in one claim with full details and then it's up to the company (WMT) to decide how to treat it; they may be generous under the circumstances.

Definitely avoid doing anything that may be interpreted as fraudulent.

What if OP put a claim on the return leg, which guarantees a payment, then in the correspondence of a "complaint" for the outward journey, mentioning the reference number of the claim for the return journey? Would that be easier for LNR to follow?

Yorkie, do you think Consumer Law's provision on consequential loss may apply here for the Virgin Train ticket bought?
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-ri...mpensation-for-train-delays-and-cancellations

 

[Belperpete]

Reading the OP again maybe take the full refund from the return journey and forget about the outward journey delay repay. The VT ticket effectively is a couple of quid for the whole return trip.

I really don't understand this attitude about forgetting about the outward journey delay. The OP's father was delayed and out of pocket, he is entitled to complain. I see no reason to preempt what the LNR's decision may be.

The best way to complain about both outward and return journeys would be to make two separate complaints. Most TOCs' delay-repay forms only allow for one claim per form, so the only way to send in a combined complaint would likely be as an email or by post. As Yorkie points out, these take much longer to process than the simple on-line forms. So it would be best to use the on-line form for the return journey, if you can (as this journey also involved a cancellation, it may not 'fit' some TOC's on-line forms).

The claim for the outward journey is not a simple claim. If you are going to make a claim based on what time he would have arrived if he had followed advice, then that should be made very clear. Just putting that time down as the actual arrival time could be construed as fraud. Unfortunately many TOCs' delay-repay forms (particularly the on-line versions) are very restrictive in what information you can put, so it will likely be necessary to put in such a claim by post or by email, or by on-line complaint form (as opposed to on-line delay-repay form). As above, such claims can take significantly longer to process than the simple on-line delay-repay form, but that is no reason not to complain.

As before, for the outward journey, I would recommend making a customer complaint, rather than a delay-repay claim. State simply and clearly exactly what happened, how long your father was delayed by, and how long he would have been delayed if he had followed advice, and ask for a refund of the additional fare paid. I would certainly NOT request a goodwill gesture - leave it up to the TOC to decide what they are going to pay. I see no reason to make any reference to the return journey in that complaint, as what happened on the return journey has no bearing on what happened on the outward journey. If the TOC has a policy of not paying more than the ticket value, then that is up to them to enforce - you are perfectly entitled to complain about what happened.

If your father was sufficiently delayed on the Virgin service, he could possibly also raise a delay-repay claim for that delay based on that ticket. He would probably have had to purchase the Virgin ticket before the advertised departure time. It would be unreasonable to claim for say a 30 minute late arrival if he was only able to catch the train in the first place because it was running 30 minutes late! However, if it was running say 10 minutes late, and was then further delayed and arrived 60 minutes late at destination, he would have valid reason to complain about the further 50 minute delay. Making two delay-repay claims for the same journey could be seen as fraudulent. However, there is no reason that you couldn't raise a delay-repay claim with Virgin, and a customer complaint to LNR about having to pay the extra fare to complete the journey. If the amount LNR decide to pay is based on delay-repay then that is up to them.

 

[Belperpete]

What if OP put a claim on the return leg, which guarantees a payment, then in the correspondence of a "complaint" for the outward journey, mentioning the reference number of the claim for the return journey? Would that be easier for LNR to follow?

Why does the OP have to make any reference whatsoever to the return journey when complaining about what happened on the outward journey? Consider someone who buys a return that is valid for one month, and they are delayed on the outward journey. Should they have to wait until they have made the return journey before complaining, just in case they are also delayed on the return? Certainly not if the return is being made a month later, as they would then be out-of-time for complaining about the outward journey.

If the TOC has a policy of limiting payments, then that is up to them to enforce - I see no reason to help them do so.

 

[furlong]

As for the possibility of a 'complaint' being made, presumably the complaint would be that ticket acceptance was not in place and that the purchase of an additional ticket to travel on Virgin should not have been necessary.

How bad were the delays? In certain circumstances there is no pre-requisite for 'ticket acceptance' to be arranged as all operators signed up to the following as part of their franchise agreements:

(1) Obligation to carry
...
(b) If any event occurs which is capable of affecting two or more trains of an Operator and is likely to result in passengers who are using or wish to use those trains being delayed by more than an hour, every other Operator must use its reasonable endeavours to enable the passenger to complete his journey on its trains at no extra charge.

with an important caveat

(2) Exception
The obligation in sub-Clause (1)(b) above only applies if the affected Operator could not reasonably have been expected to make alternative arrangements to prevent the passengers referred to in that sub-Clause being delayed by more than an hour, having regard to the length of any notice it had of the event which affected its train(s).

and

(5) Compensation
(a) An Operator which carries passengers pursuant to sub-Clause (1) above will not receive any compensation for doing so unless the delay referred to in that sub-Clause continues for more than 48 hours.

 

[sheff1]

I really don't understand this attitude about forgetting about the outward journey delay ....

... what happened on the return journey has no bearing on what happened on the outward journey.

Quite. If the return journey had run like clockwork with no delay would these people still be saying "forget about the outward journey".

 

[gpmartin]

Thank you so much for all the replies.

I really don't understand this attitude about forgetting about the outward journey delay. The OP's father was delayed and out of pocket, he is entitled to complain.

Yes, and this is what is driving me here! He had a totally miserable journey that, as things stand, has cost him almost twice what it should have done. Even after Delay Repay for the return leg, he'll still be down a couple of quid, when the journey has taken something like four hours more than it should have done, and got him home after midnight. It's not much money but there is a principle, and train companies should be held to account and obliged to pay as much as they should in such circumstances.

On the onward journey what time did he arrive in Euston compared to his scheduled arrival time?

May I know what is the arrival time of OP's father to Euston with the Virgin trains. How much did the Virgin Trains delay against its schedule?

Has he taken this 1122 Virgin Service to London Euston?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P58235/2019-11-02

If so, I think OP's father has been de-facto delayed by 32 minutes. If he has taken a later one, there may be longer delays.

Yes, I think that may have been the train. I will check in with him. But as you say, that's a delay of >30 minutes even after paying extra for the ticket. It therefore feels like he could legitimately make two Delay Repay claims.

However...

The question over whether a customer is due more than the overall price of a ticket in Delay Relay compensation is one that has dropped up in several different threads recently, and I don't think we have a conclusive answer.

This is interesting! I didn't see these threads, but my assumption had always been that Delay Repay compensation of >100% was perfectly legitimate in some circumstances. It is compensation, not a refund - it happens to be calculated as a proportion of the cost of the ticket (12.5% up to 100%, potentially times two if both legs are delayed), but I don't see why that should mean that the maximum compensation is the full cost of the ticket. Cf. EU airline regulation, which can see you profit from a flight if it's delayed three or four hours.

Given this, should the Deplay Repay claim for the 30-minute delay on the outward leg be against the original return ticket (25%), or against the extra single (50%)? My instinct says the original ticket, and by the time he paid for the single, it was after the scheduled departure time for the LNR train - so a claim against that ticket might be rejected on those grounds. Your thoughts would be most welcome.

 

[gpmartin]

How bad were the delays? In certain circumstances there is no pre-requisite for 'ticket acceptance' to be arranged as all operators signed up to the following as part of their franchise agreements:

(1) Obligation to carry
...
(b) If any event occurs which is capable of affecting two or more trains of an Operator and is likely to result in passengers who are using or wish to use those trains being delayed by more than an hour, every other Operator must use its reasonable endeavours to enable the passenger to complete his journey on its trains at no extra charge.

with an important caveat

(2) Exception
The obligation in sub-Clause (1)(b) above only applies if the affected Operator could not reasonably have been expected to make alternative arrangements to prevent the passengers referred to in that sub-Clause being delayed by more than an hour, having regard to the length of any notice it had of the event which affected its train(s).

Replying to this separately, because it seems to raise an interesting point. My father tells me that LNR were stating that the delays were due to "unforeseen circumstances" - but that those "unforeseen circumstances" were to do with low train crew availability. Looking around this forum, it seems that this is anything but unforeseeable, and has been going on for some time with LNR. So in terms of Clause 2, I can imagine that while LNR might say that they "could not have reasonably expected to make alternative arrangements" given "the length of any notice it had of the event which affected its trains", Virgin Trains might quite reasonably argue exactly the opposite. Naturally, it's the passenger who loses out.

 

[Belperpete]

my assumption had always been that Delay Repay compensation of >100% was perfectly legitimate in some circumstances. It is compensation, not a refund - it happens to be calculated as a proportion of the cost of the ticket (12.5% up to 100%, potentially times two if both legs are delayed), but I don't see why that should mean that the maximum compensation is the full cost of the ticket. Cf. EU airline regulation, which can see you profit from a flight if it's delayed three or four hours.

I have received more than ticket value on several occasions when delayed on both out and back legs.

Given this, should the Deplay Repay claim for the 30-minute delay on the outward leg be against the original return ticket (25%), or against the extra single (50%)? My instinct says the original ticket, and by the time he paid for the single, it was after the scheduled departure time for the LNR train - so a claim against that ticket might be rejected on those grounds. Your thoughts would be most welcome.

The outward journey was actually two completely separate journeys: a Tamworth to Euston journey that was abandoned part-way through at Rugby, and a Rugby to Euston journey made on a fresh ticket.

I would NOT put in two delay-repay claims for the journey to Euston, one to LNR and one to Virgin. If LNR for any reason decided to pass their claim to Virgin, or vice-versa, then it would look like you were claiming twice for the same delay, which could be construed as fraud.

You could legitimately put in a claim to LNR for any delay Tamworth to Rugby based on the original ticket, and a claim to Virgin for any delay Rugby to Euston based on the additional ticket bought. Of course, if the LNR train arrived on-timeish at Rugby, then no delay payment would be due for that leg. And if the time of ticket purchase at Rugby showed that your father only caught the Virgin train because it was running late, then he really wouldn't have any basis for claiming.

You can't claim a full refund of the original ticket on the basis that the journey was abandoned, as the return portion of the ticket was used in full. You could claim a refund of the Rugby - Euston outward portion of the return ticket, but the amount is likely to be negligible if the difference in cost between the equivalent single and return fares is negligible.

I have several times had to abandon a journey part-way through, and complete the journey by alternative means (bus or taxi). In such circumstances, you cannot claim delay-repay as the train journey was not completed. I have therefore submitted a customer complaint, stating what time I would have arrived had I waited for the next train, and claiming the cost of the taxi or bus fare. They usually pay based on the delay-repay formula, based on the difference between the scheduled arrival time, and the time I would have arrived had I caught the next train. The other method of calculation they can use is to repay the cost of the abandoned part of the journey, but as above this is likely to be negligible. Submitting the cost of the taxi or bus fare, and the delay I would have suffered had I waited, I think encourages them to use the more generous method, and on one occasion I even received an additional goodwill payment on top. This is the method I recommend you use for the outward journey: submit a customer complaint, stating simply and clearly what happened, the time that your father was originally scheduled to arrive, the time he would have arrived had he followed advice, and asking for reimbursement of the extra expense that he incurred. It is then up to the TOC to decide how much to pay. I wouldn't hold out much hope of receiving a full refund or a goodwill payment, but if they decided to pay less than the delay-repay formula, then I would certainly escalate the complaint.

 

[island]

How bad were the delays? In certain circumstances there is no pre-requisite for 'ticket acceptance' to be arranged as all operators signed up to the following as part of their franchise agreements:



with an important caveat



and

Whilst this may be so, the franchise agreements are agreements between the TOCs and the DfT, and do not create rights enforceable by passengers as against the TOCs.

 

[gpmartin]

Just to let you know the outcome of this - following your considered advice, my father put in a Delay Repay claim for the return journey, and emailed the company separately with regard to the outward journey. The Delay Repay claim was processed very quickly (automatically?) but incorrectly, initially offering only 50% of the cost of the ticket. This was put right when my father appealed. Somewhat later, he received a response to his email regarding the outward journey, offering a good will payment of £29.65 - i.e. the amount paid for the additional RUG-EUS single. He is very happy with the outcome. Thank you for your advice!

 

[Belperpete]

Just to let you know the outcome of this - following your considered advice, my father put in a Delay Repay claim for the return journey, and emailed the company separately with regard to the outward journey. The Delay Repay claim was processed very quickly (automatically?) but incorrectly, initially offering only 50% of the cost of the ticket. This was put right when my father appealed. Somewhat later, he received a response to his email regarding the outward journey, offering a good will payment of £29.65 - i.e. the amount paid for the additional RUG-EUS single. He is very happy with the outcome. Thank you for your advice!

Thanks for the update. A very satisfactory outcome. Just goes to prove that you should ignore those who say don't bother claiming more than the ticket cost.