Delay Repay: Digital tickets and footprint of itinerary.

[Tarquin88]

I usually buy tickets from a TVM with a contactless card (which is registered to various ticket sites). Where I have been eligible for delay repay, I have claimed it and have had no issues.

This week, I bought my first eTicket (using the SWR app). Both the digital ticket and the pdf in the confirmation email show the times of the outgoing and return trains which I entered in order to generate the correct ticket and price. In reality, these times are largely irrelevant on, for example, off peak day returns.

However, suppose the trains you selected do run on time but you actually travel on alternate trains which are delayed.

Are you vulnerable to the TOC suspecting that you travelled on the trains you originally chose but then you decided to make a delay repay claim for a train you knew was delayed?

We see plenty of posters on here who have been accused of fraud. If I’m likely to get hassle, I’ll go back to using the TVM which doesn’t leave such a detailed footprint and where you wouldn’t need to prove that you didn’t take the original trains.

[Incidentally, I kept to my original trains and they were both on time so not an issue on this occasion].

 

[Bletchleyite]

We see plenty of posters on here who have been accused of fraud. If I’m likely to get hassle, I’ll go back to using the TVM which doesn’t leave such a detailed footprint and where you wouldn’t need to prove that you didn’t take the original trains.

No, the TOC won't do any such thing. And the scans along the way give a pretty good indication of which trains you took. If you want to add evidence of what you did, get as many scans in as possible, e.g. scan at every gateline you pass even if open, but you don't have to do this.

The only thing the extra information e-tickets give will prevent is fraudulent claims, e.g. claiming for one train when a ticket scan proves you were on a different one, or ending short (scanning to get out of the gateline) and claiming as if you hadn't.

(Usually for long distance trips I have an itinerary and reservations for the outward, but very often ignore it for the return as I changed my mind, and I've never had a claim refused on that basis).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I usually buy tickets from a TVM with a contactless card (which is registered to various ticket sites). Where I have been eligible for delay repay, I have claimed it and have had no issues.

This week, I bought my first eTicket (using the SWR app). Both the digital ticket and the pdf in the confirmation email show the times of the outgoing and return trains which I entered in order to generate the correct ticket and price. In reality, these times are largely irrelevant on, for example, off peak day returns.

However, suppose the trains you selected do run on time but you actually travel on alternate trains which are delayed.

Are you vulnerable to the TOC suspecting that you travelled on the trains you originally chose but then you decided to make a delay repay claim for a train you knew was delayed?

We see plenty of posters on here who have been accused of fraud. If I’m likely to get hassle, I’ll go back to using the TVM which doesn’t leave such a detailed footprint and where you wouldn’t need to prove that you didn’t take the original trains.

[Incidentally, I kept to my original trains and they were both on time so not an issue on this occasion].

I don't recall this scenario ever being reported here in real life.

It seems to me that what might be likely to provoke an investigation by the railway would be consistently buying tickets for a pair of journeys (for the sake of argument, out at 1000, returning at 1930) but claiming delay repay on Monday for out 1100 and back 2100, on Tuesday for out at 0830 and back 2230, on Wednesday for out at 0930 and back at 1500 - and so on, particularly if the journeys claimed for turn out to be delay-repayable and other trains on the day ran to time. Of course, it might be that those are the journeys that someone made, and their claims are legitimate - but realistically they would have to explain to the railway why they had such an irregular pattern and why it always seemed to coincide with delayed trains.

(Edited to add) and we have seen the railways pursuing people who apparently always end up on the delayed train - but my impression is that this is detected from the delay repay claims rather than from the tickets they hold. Although as @Bletchleyite touches on, I don't see any reason why the railway could not try to associate ticketing data with the delay repay data to get a stronger idea of what really happened.

 

[Haywain]

Are you vulnerable to the TOC suspecting that you travelled on the trains you originally chose but then you decided to make a delay repay claim for a train you knew was delayed?

Not in my experience.

 

[skyhigh]

e.g. scan at every gateline you pass even if open

In my experience, when a gateline is open it won't scan or record anything.

 

[Titfield]

To avoid any potential problems firstly I always scan wherever possible (though two stations I use on a regular basis are not gated) secondly I take photographs of the departure information screen showing that the train is delayed. I have never had to produce my photographic evidence though.

The TOCs will increasingly use big data to try and catch those who seek to abuse the system.

 

[The_Van]

I always take a picture of the real time trains schedule for the train I'm claiming for. I've had to submit that once where the TOC was claiming a 59 min delay and it was actually 61 mins

 

[skyhigh]

I always take a picture of the real time trains schedule for the train I'm claiming for. I've had to submit that once where the TOC was claiming a 59 min delay and it was actually 61 mins

That's nothing at all to do with the concern the OP has though. It doesn't prove anything at all about which train you were or weren't on.

 

[MrJeeves]

That's nothing at all to do with the concern the OP has though. It doesn't prove anything at all about which train you were or weren't on.

Obviously this should actually be extended to ensuring you record a video at the departure station, showing the departure board with a live clock, your own face, as well as presenting photo ID alongside your ticket, and ensuring you capture the moment you board the service, and performing the same in reverse when alighting!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

showing the departure board with a live clock, your own face, as well as presenting photo ID alongside your ticket, and ensuring you capture the moment you board the service, and performing the same in reverse when alighting!

Let's not forget the need to hold up today's newspaper when taking the selfie to prove the date too

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience, when a gateline is open it won't scan or record anything.

The one at Bletchley definitely scans and beeps, but I don't know if it records anything as I don't have a means of scanning one myself to see.

 

[AdamWW]

Obviously this should actually be extended to ensuring you record a video at the departure station, showing the departure board with a live clock, your own face, as well as presenting photo ID alongside your ticket, and ensuring you capture the moment you board the service, and performing the same in reverse when alighting!

I do sometimes take a photo when I'm on a train that arrives late. But that's just because it's the laziest way of noting the time...

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I do sometimes take a photo when I'm on a train that arrives late. But that's just because it's the laziest way of noting the time...

I find checking against Real Time Trains* when submitting the claim works for me.

*Other websites are available.

 

[AdamWW]

I find checking against Real Time Trains* when submitting the claim works for me.

*Other websites are available.

I do use Realtimetrains but of course that doesn't remind me which train I was on.

 

[cool110]

RTT also isn't useful when going into somewhere like Piccadilly P13 when the gap between berth occupation and actual arrival is often long enough to cross a threshold.

 

[Jamiescott1]

I take different time trains daily on a season ticket loaded onto a smart card and my station is ungated so dont touch in.
I claim a lot of genuine delay repay and for different time trains but have never been questioned on this.

I do however have proof of what trains I've taken as I cycle to / from station so have strava records.

 

[kkong]

In my experience, when a gateline is open it won't scan or record anything.

I can't speak for e-tickets, but that is definitely not the case for smartcards, which do scan when the gate is open (to begin the journey and create the transient ticket on the card).

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can't speak for e-tickets, but that is definitely not the case for smartcards, which do scan when the gate is open (to begin the journey and create the transient ticket on the card).

Smartcards are different as some products need to be activated therefore gates (at least Cubic and S&B not sure about VIX) are always on when a Smartcard is presented.

 

[Elecman]

RTT also isn't useful when going into somewhere like Piccadilly P13 when the gap between berth occupation and actual arrival is often long enough to cross a threshold.

Or Preston

 

[W-on-Sea]

On numerous occasions I've claimed Delay Repay for journeys I made which differed from the suggested journeys printed on the PDF, and have never had any problems. At least on some occasions there'd have been no opportunity to scan the tickets anywhere (stations without barriers, no on-train checks) so there would be no way to prove that I'd used the trains I claimed for. So I don't think there is any cause of concern.

 

[Tarquin88]

On numerous occasions I've claimed Delay Repay for journeys I made which differed from the suggested journeys printed on the PDF, and have never had any problems. At least on some occasions there'd have been no opportunity to scan the tickets anywhere (stations without barriers, no on-train checks) so there would be no way to prove that I'd used the trains I claimed for. So I don't think there is any cause of concern.

Thanks for this - and to all the others who have posted. Seems I'm worrying unnecessarily, so I'll carry on using eTickets.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

As train crew I deal with delays virtually every day, I’ll always advise about delay repay, how to apply and which TOC to do it through (to assist the customer in not getting bounced around the houses when claiming, not just passing it away from my TOC)

When dealing with e-tickets it’s far easier to corroborate for the customer, our machines have 3 options, Accept, Warn, Flag and each of these has a host of sub options.
I’ll generally tag delayed customers as “Accept - Accept for service disruption” and this, when scanned again, shows the date, time and service the customer is using.

The usual occurrence is the customer has their itinerary open, trainline or similar showing the journey with a big red line on it, I’ll ask for the tickets anyway, scan knowing they’ll show incorrect service then accept and tag as appropriate, offer advice for delay repay and where necessary run off an adapted itinerary for any connections.

 

[Watershed]

As train crew I deal with delays virtually every day, I’ll always advise about delay repay, how to apply and which TOC to do it through (to assist the customer in not getting bounced around the houses when claiming, not just passing it away from my TOC)

When dealing with e-tickets it’s far easier to corroborate for the customer, our machines have 3 options, Accept, Warn, Flag and each of these has a host of sub options.
I’ll generally tag delayed customers as “Accept - Accept for service disruption” and this, when scanned again, shows the date, time and service the customer is using.

The usual occurrence is the customer has their itinerary open, trainline or similar showing the journey with a big red line on it, I’ll ask for the tickets anyway, scan knowing they’ll show incorrect service then accept and tag as appropriate, offer advice for delay repay and where necessary run off an adapted itinerary for any connections.

Great customer service - this is what you'd ideally want all guards/TMs to do (where time permits).