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Delay Repay rejection due to "reaching the maximum pro-rata full days travel"

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kristiang85

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I saw this tweet which has been intriguing me this morning - a passenger is tweeting SWR complaining her delay repay was rejected due to the reason she "had already reached the maximum pro-rata full days travel".

Could someone explain what this is? Assuming her quote from the rejection email is verbatim correct and assuming that she is claiming for genuine delays.

The only thing I can think of is that SWR work on the assumption that one only travels twice a day on a season ticket, which personally I think is ridiculous.

Given that I've had to claim for about 75% of my journeys with SWR in the last couple of weeks, I can see how someone travelling more than twice a day will hit the 'limit' at the moment, if this is indeed the case.
 
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Starmill

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Did the customer say they were using a season ticket?

As long as each individual claim was valid on its own facts, I don't see any grounds to refuse any claims because multiple journeys have been undertaken on the same day but within the validity of a ticket. I cannot see any evidence of a cap on the value of compensation that can be claimed for one day's travel.

SWR might attempt to claim that there's such a restriction, in order to save themselves some money, but I wouldn't believe them.
 

Essan

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To further clarify, the SWR FAQs state, in explanation of the excuse that "You have exceeded the maximum compensation payable for a day’s travel" :

Where a delay of 120 minutes occurs, the calculation for this provides you with 100% of the cost of the delayed journey (whether you are a season ticket or daily ticket holder). Because we provide the full cost of the ticket (or value of the day’s journey in the case of season ticket holders), compensation is capped at this level for the day.

So, if you have claimed for a delay on part of your journey that resulted in a 100% refund, you cannot then make a second claim should a subsequent part of your journey also be delayed. With regards season tickets, it does appear that the assumption is that you will only make one return journey per day. But, presumably, that is also how the costs of such tickets are calculated?
 

kristiang85

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With regards season tickets, it does appear that the assumption is that you will only make one return journey per day. But, presumably, that is also how the costs of such tickets are calculated?

Yes season tickets are based on that assumption, but the point of delay repay is to compensate you for your time - so if you have lost time three times in one day, then you should get refunded for it. How they calculate the price of season tickets shouldn't matter.

Edit: Sorry, I re-read it again and understood what they are saying. So basically if you had a 2hr delay in the morning, and a 1hr delay in the evening, you cannot claim for the 1hr delay in the evening. Which is ridiculous, in my humble opinion.
 

Snow1964

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Yes season tickets are based on that assumption, but the point of delay repay is to compensate you for your time - so if you have lost time three times in one day, then you should get refunded for it. How they calculate the price of season tickets shouldn't matter.

Edit: Sorry, I re-read it again and understood what they are saying. So basically if you had a 2hr delay in the morning, and a 1hr delay in the evening, you cannot claim for the 1hr delay in the evening. Which is ridiculous, in my humble opinion.

Yes that appears to be the case, but if you got delayed going home one evening, and delayed again the following morning, using with same season ticket, can claim for both.

The logic of why a morning and evening delay is capped, but an evening and following morning delay isn't, makes no sense to me.
 

WesternLancer

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There must at least be some people who might work 2 shifts at a job in a day (eg a security guard who unlocks a building in the morning, stays till 10am, goes off duty, comes back at 3pm to work, then stays till 7pm - ie makes 2 round trips).

I have a colleague who goes home for lunch (on the bus) so makes 4 bus trips on the same route a day, using a season pass. Must be people who do certain train journey's the same, esp if short distance urban area.

I suppose you would have to ask for compo outside the rules if in such instances you got large delays on each of the 2 rtn trips etc
 
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Starmill

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In my opinion SWR aren't entitled to apply an artificial daily cap on compensation because it suits them to do so. However, if the delay wouldn't have qualified under the NRCoT compensation rules, there is a big grey area there.
 

fireftrm

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I am having this issue with TPE on a return ticket - delayed 2 hours on my outward journey due to 2 cancellations - intially 50% compensation which I appealed and correclty received the other half. One week later the return was delayed 2.5 hours and they are using the " already reached the maximum pro-rata full days travel" depsite having paid no compensation for this second day's delay. Still appealing......
 

Meerkat

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It is called delay REPAY so it seems reasonable to not “repay” more than you have paid.
For a ST you have paid for a days worth of travel, they are restricting the repayment to what you have paid for that day.
 

Starmill

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It is called delay REPAY so it seems reasonable to not “repay” more than you have paid.
I disagree. It's compensation for inconvenience. It's not the same as being refunded. If you travel twice, and are equally disrupted on both occasions, you suffer twice the inconvenience. So why shouldn't you receive twice the compensation?
 

Belperpete

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I disagree. It's compensation for inconvenience. It's not the same as being refunded. If you travel twice, and are equally disrupted on both occasions, you suffer twice the inconvenience. So why shouldn't you receive twice the compensation?
Agreed. The problem with seasons is determining how much each journey is worth, in order to calculate the compensation. The cost of the season is based on one return journey a day. If you make two return journeys a day, then you have only paid half as much for each journey. So if you are delayed on both returns, you are entitled to compensation for all the delays, but only at half the rate as if you had only made one journey that day. By allowing someone a full day's compensation when they have only been delayed three times out of four, it could be argued that the TOC is being generous.
 

Snow1964

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It is called delay REPAY so it seems reasonable to not “repay” more than you have paid.
For a ST you have paid for a days worth of travel, they are restricting the repayment to what you have paid for that day.

That is the problem, it is often billed as compensation, but in reality is limited to getting money back for failure to deliver customer in reasonable timescale

But there is no compensation, not like they are offering a we screw up we give you 50% extra back.
 

Starmill

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Agreed. The problem with seasons is determining how much each journey is worth, in order to calculate the compensation. The cost of the season is based on one return journey a day. If you make two return journeys a day, then you have only paid half as much for each journey. So if you are delayed on both returns, you are entitled to compensation for all the delays, but only at half the rate as if you had only made one journey that day. By allowing someone a full day's compensation when they have only been delayed three times out of four, it could be argued that the TOC is being generous.
I don't agree it's generous at all. The daily rate they're applying over the course of the whole year is low, because it assumes that everyone will make 232 return trips a year. There are 261 working days in 2019. This means that if we consider a typical office worker, SWR only give allowance for 29 days to cover all of:
- Annual leave
- Unpaid or additional leave
- Sick days spent at home
- Days working from home or off site

Anyone making fewer than 232 return trips a year will be relatively underpaid by the Delay Repay scheme's terms. Even if you add in a small allowance for ticket holders who use them at the weekend, or who, exceptionally, and as in this case, make 2 trips on the same day, the overall rate is very likely on average to favour SWR and not the customer.

To put the above another way: I think the ordinary rate of delay compensation for longer than 7 day seasons is too low.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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[snip]
To put the above another way: I think the ordinary rate of delay compensation for longer than 7 day seasons is too low.

Given that most holders of such tickets are paying out, sometimes significant sums, in advance and on a regular basis then they do deserve better consideration of the value of their time spent travelling. In terms of long term financial planning of railways the value of season ticket revenue is an important factor with the size of train fleets, for example, being largely driven by the demands of season ticket travel.
 

gray1404

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I think the most fair way to treat a season ticket delay repay claim is to base it as if an Anytime Day Return or Anytime Return was held and base it on this value. That is, in essence, what a season ticket allows one to do i.e. make as many journeys as they want without time restrictions. Of course, this is to consumer friendly for the train company's even consider doing this.
 

Meerkat

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I disagree. It's compensation for inconvenience. It's not the same as being refunded. If you travel twice, and are equally disrupted on both occasions, you suffer twice the inconvenience. So why shouldn't you receive twice the compensation?

It isn’t compensation, it is a refund.
Compensation would be a Pandora’s box of complication and extreme expense.
 

Meerkat

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If it was compensation why is it related to the amount paid, and not the loss suffered?
 

Starmill

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If it was compensation why is it related to the amount paid, and not the loss suffered?
Because that is the method for calculating payments of compensation laid down in the consumer contract. All train companies add a note to their contract that it does not affect the consumer's legal rights, too. If a court decided that compensation for some other type of breach were appropriate, that would probably be relative damages.

It may help to think about it neither as a refund (defined as reversal of the contract) or damages payment which is perhaps what the name 'compensation' most commonly invokes these days. Instead, think of it more like a simple contractual payment, like people who work for Deliveroo or contractors on payment by results contracts. If standard Y is not met, then pay £x, in proportion.

This is also why companies must not delay in making payments beyond the timescales set out in the NRCoT, or make out that less compensation is due than it really is, unless in exceptional circumstances. To do so is breach of the contract.
 
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35B

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I have no problem in accepting that Delay Repay is tied to the cost of the ticket, and that a proxy measure is used to attribute value to a journey made on a season ticket.

What I’m struggling with is the idea that when the limits are set at certain percentages of the associated fare, an additional rule, not detailed on the operator’s site, is applied that denies payment under certain, albeit unusual, circumstances.
 

Tetchytyke

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If it was compensation why is it related to the amount paid, and not the loss suffered?

For a similar reason as to why EU261 compensation is a flat rate.

Delay Repay is not a refund. It is compensation for loss. The quantum for that is based on what you paid.
 

Meerkat

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For a similar reason as to why EU261 compensation is a flat rate.

Delay Repay is not a refund. It is compensation for loss. The quantum for that is based on what you paid.

That sounds like a refund as it doesn’t really relate to any loss caused by being delayed.
But it’s all pedantry. And as the refund/compensation is a percentage of the payment it seems reasonable to me that it can’t be more than you have paid.
 

35B

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That sounds like a refund as it doesn’t really relate to any loss caused by being delayed.
But it’s all pedantry. And as the refund/compensation is a percentage of the payment it seems reasonable to me that it can’t be more than you have paid.
But there are limited circumstances where it can be.
 

Starmill

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But it’s all pedantry. And as the refund/compensation is a percentage of the payment it seems reasonable to me that it can’t be more than you have paid.
I don't really agree. If delays result in consequential losses, consumers are entitled to recover some reasonable costs from train companies including over and above what price they paid for the ticket. Why should direct losses (time due to journeys taking longer than scheduled) be different?

If a delay is caused by a fault on your train which then means you miss your last bus home, even though you allowed one hour connection time, and you had to take a taxi instead, that taxi fare is recoverable even if it is twice or three times the price you've paid for the train ticket.
 

sheff1

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That sounds like a refund as it doesn’t really relate to any loss caused by being delayed.
But it’s all pedantry. And as the refund/compensation is a percentage of the payment it seems reasonable to me that it can’t be more than you have paid.

If you choose to believe compensation is a refund that is entirely up to you. Doesn't alter the facts though.
 

Starmill

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Yes that appears to be the case, but if you got delayed going home one evening, and delayed again the following morning, using with same season ticket, can claim for both.

The logic of why a morning and evening delay is capped, but an evening and following morning delay isn't, makes no sense to me.
I think the logic is only as follows: SWR would like to reduce their liability to pay compensation, and will do anything they think they can get away with to achieve that.
 

Belperpete

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Given that most holders of such tickets are paying out, sometimes significant sums, in advance and on a regular basis then they do deserve better consideration of the value of their time spent travelling.
And they get that consideration in the massive discount they get, compared to what they would have paid if they paid daily.
 
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