Delay Repay Sailrail - ticket issued in Dublin

[BigCj34]

Only my third post about this Sailrail trip!

I made a delay repay claim to Avanti, departing from Dublin Ferryport at 0805 using Irish Ferries to arrive into Ulverston at 1645 on 30 April, but arrived at 1743 as I had to take an alternate route due to Avanti cancellations, meaning I was delayed by 30-59 minutes. This claim was rejected as not being a valid ticket type, as I used a hand-written ticket issued at Dublin Ferryport ordered via Irish Ferries.

Clearly it was not possible for me to order an orange printed ticket for collection or an e-ticket as this was purchased outside of Great Britain. The price of the ticket was €50, charged at £43.00 on the card I used. What are my delay repay rights, as this is not a ticket issued in Great Britain (I presume an orange ticket would carry normal delay repay rights)? Does this simply revert to the CIV rules of a 25% refund if delayed by over an hour? If this is the case then I missed out by two minutes.

 

[Haywain]

Is there anything on the ticket to indicate that it is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel?

 

[BigCj34]

Is there anything on the ticket to indicate that it is issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel?

It does not say that specifically. It says it is subject to "the provisions of the Convention concerning International Carriage by Rail (COTIF). and also "subject to the regulations of the Standard International tariff for the Transport of Passengers and luggage (TCV)", as well as having CIV on it.

 

[Haywain]

It does not say that specifically. It says it is subject to "the provisions of the Convention concerning International Carriage by Rail (COTIF). and also "subject to the regulations of the Standard International tariff for the Transport of Passengers and luggage (TCV)", as well as having CIV on it.

If it doesn't mention the NRCoT then I don't think you can rely on the compensation arrangements that it provides. I would conclude that you were two minutes short of receiving anything.

 

[Watershed]

If it doesn't mention the NRCoT then I don't think you can rely on the compensation arrangements that it provides. I would conclude that you were two minutes short of receiving anything.

The CIV incorporate the 'special conditions of carriage' of the relevant operator(s), and the NRCoT explicitly say that the CIV gives additional rights on top of those in the NRCoT.

Therefore, any claim by Avanti (or any other TOC) that the NRCoT don't apply to the journey because of the ticket being issued subject to the CIV is simply wrong.

Delay Repay is due as per any other ticket.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The CIV incorporate the 'special conditions of carriage' of the relevant operator(s), and the NRCoT explicitly say that the CIV gives additional rights on top of those in the NRCoT.

Therefore, any claim by Avanti (or any other TOC) that the NRCoT don't apply to the journey because of the ticket being issued subject to the CIV is simply wrong.

Delay Repay is due as per any other ticket.

But the ticket in question, being issued in Ireland, wouldn't even reference the NRCoT - the only terms it is issued under is CIV and Irish law. I don't think there is a convincing arguement to be had there.

You have also missed out an extremely crucial part of the NRCoT in any event:

These Conditions apply to travel within Great Britain only

 

[MrJeeves]

You have also missed out an extremely crucial part of the NRCoT in any event:

These Conditions apply to travel within Great Britain only

My interpretation of this is that the travel in another country is not subject to the NRCoT, but any legs inside GB covered by the international ticket are.

The delay wasn't experienced on the leg from Dublin to Holyhead, but instead on the GB portion of the journey, so I'd argue Delay Repay should be paid here.

 

[Watershed]

But the ticket in question, being issued in Ireland, wouldn't even reference the NRCoT - the only terms it is issued under is CIV and Irish law. I don't think there is a convincing arguement to be had there.

It doesn't have to directly reference the NRCoT to incorporate them though - it references the CIV, which in turn incorporate the NRCoT.

I am sure Avanti would be more than happy to apply the NRCoT when it suits them - such as charging the passenger the cost of an Anytime Single if they lost their ticket! Any argument to the contrary isn't really convincing; what provisions would apply to luggage, permitted routes or break of journey otherwise, for instance?

You have also missed out an extremely crucial part of the NRCoT in any event:

That simply means that (as one would expect) the non-National Rail portion of any international ticket is subject to separate conditions.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think you'd need a deadlock letter and argue the potential interpretation to the ombudsman. However, a ticket that is clearly marked as issued subject to CIV, no reference to the NRCoT, and with no reference to UK law (and actually issued under Irish law) is going to be difficult.

Furthermore, at the time the contract was formed in Ireland, given the NRCoT would not even have been made available to the customer, or indeed even referenced, I'm not persuaded that it can be said that the customer can rely on those conditions - but can fully avail of PRO and CIV.

I certainly don't think anyone can categorically say that delay repay is definitely due.

If the tickets had originally been issued in GB, it would be marginally more persuasive.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Is where the ticket bought an issue at all? If the ticket is valid to be used on Avanti service in the UK then surely the T&C's which come with having a valid Avanti ticket should be adhered to?

 

[NorthWestRover]

The British issued tickets (of which I currently have one) reference both CIV and NRCoT.

 

[TUC]

'Ticket' is defined in the NRCoT as 'any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network'.

Given that definition, and the reference to 'any ticket', it is hard to see Avanti's approach as based upon anything but pure ignorance of the NRCoT.

 

[Mainline421]

I have a claim from December for a 2 hours+ delay using one of these tickets. Avanti repeatedly rejected it, claiming it was "not valid for the journey made." Upon appeal they claimed I should have been given a barcode or orange card coupons. When I pointed out this was incorrect they last responded with

With the information provided, I have submitted an appeal on your behalf. Once the Delay Repay team review the appeal, you will be advised of their decision. Please note that this may take up to 20 working days.

Which was back on 6 March.

The train from Holyhead got cancelled at Crewe with no trains towards London for well over an hour afterwards, and there was a lot of people visibly holding these tickets onboard (and pretty much every seat in the unreserved carriage was filled) so I imagine all of those who claimed will have been rejected, probably without appealing.

Thankfully Avanti staff on the ground are well aware of these tickets unlike Journeycall or whoever is managing Delay Repay.

 

[AdamWW]

It doesn't have to directly reference the NRCoT to incorporate them though - it references the CIV, which in turn incorporate the NRCoT.

I am sure Avanti would be more than happy to apply the NRCoT when it suits them - such as charging the passenger the cost of an Anytime Single if they lost their ticket! Any argument to the contrary isn't really convincing; what provisions would apply to luggage, permitted routes or break of journey otherwise, for instance?

Quite.

'Ticket' is defined in the NRCoT as 'any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network'.

That does seem to argue strongly for the common sense view that the NRCoT must apply (because if not, what does?)

If the NRCoT only applies to someone holding a ticket which specifically references the NRCoT, why did they bother with rules on when you can board a train without a ticket?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Quite.



That does seem to argue strongly for the common sense view that the NRCoT must apply (because if not, what does?)

If the NRCoT only applies to someone holding a ticket which specifically references the NRCoT, why did they bother with rules on when you can board a train without a ticket?

The CIV conditions of carriage, which the ticket clearly says it is issued against.

 

[Starmill]

I can't see anything in the delay repay information on the Avanti West Coast website that says SailRail tickets or tickets purchased in Ireland aren't eligible for compensation under Delay Repay.

Sometimes delays are unavoidable - but that doesn’t make them any less frustrating. To help us show how sorry we are for any disruptions to your travel, we’ve implemented Delay Repay. If you've been delayed for 15 minutes or more on one of our trains, you're entitled to compensation. Just visit our Delay Repay page (link below) to make a claim.

If you booked tickets on an Avanti West Coast service through another site and your train was delayed, you can still use Delay Repay. Visit the Delay Repay page to claim your compensation.

All Delay Repay claims must be submitted within 28 days of the affected journey. Click below to start your claim:

Dealing with delays | Avanti West Coast

We want your journey with us to run as smoothly as possible but unfortunately delays do happen. Find out all you need to know about rail delays online.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Seems reasonably straightforward to me there wouldn't be a restriction on the ticket type. It specifically says tickets sold by third parties are included. I'm not aware of any other cases where there is one?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I can't see anything in the delay repay information on the Avanti West Coast website that says SailRail tickets or tickets purchased in Ireland aren't eligible for compensation under Delay Repay.

Dealing with delays | Avanti West Coast

We want your journey with us to run as smoothly as possible but unfortunately delays do happen. Find out all you need to know about rail delays online.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Seems reasonably straightforward to me there wouldn't be a restriction on the ticket type. It specifically says tickets sold by third parties are included. I'm not aware of any other cases where there is one?

Interrail tickets are also not valid for Delay Repay. You can claim compensation, but not via the operator and not according to the usual Delay Repay terms.

Delay Compensation

www.interrail.eu

And, funnily enough, Interrail tickets are issued according to, and against, the CIV conditions!

 

[AdamWW]

The CIV conditions of carriage, which the ticket clearly says it is issued against.

OK fair point.

Edit: Actually no I go back to my original position. Unless the CIV refers directly to the UK routing guide, if the NRCoT doesn't apply then you appear to have a ticket with no rules on which routes it can be used for. This doesn't seem right.

You could argue that someone on a CIV ticket gains protections but doesn't get the ones that the person next to them on a regular ticket has.

Doesn't seem very reasonable, but in any case I think there are still other good arguments as to why the NRCoT applies.

Such as:

[The NRCoT] comprise the binding contract that comes into effect between you and the Train Companies that provide scheduled rail services on the National Rail Network, when you purchase a Ticket.

Nothing there saying that it only applies to tickets purchased in the UK that specifically refer to the NRCoT. Just a ticket for travel on the National Rail Network.

Do the CIV rules say that travel under them is only under CIV rules and all national rules are disapplied?

But in any case....does Avanti only pay out for delays under the NRCoT?

I thought that most TOCs operated a scheme that went beyond the NRCoT rules, in which case does it say that it only applies to tickets to which the NRCoT apply?

 

[MrJeeves]

I can't see anything in the delay repay information on the Avanti West Coast website that says SailRail tickets or tickets purchased in Ireland aren't eligible for compensation under Delay Repay.

With that logic, would you say that Interrail tickets should be eligible for passenger charter or NRCoT delay repay, too?

 

[AdamWW]

With that logic, would you say that Interrail tickets should be eligible for passenger charter or NRCoT delay repay, too?

I realise that wasn't aimed at me, but:

No, because they have their own scheme. And if they didn't, perhaps also no because unlike UK rover tickets there is presumably no definition of what value to use for compensation for an individual journey.

I can certainly see an argument that it is unreasonable for a TOC to pay out Delay Repay on the full value of a Sailrail ticket as some of it is for non rail travel.

 

[MrJeeves]

No, because they have their own scheme.

So if there is a compensation scheme, it magically invalidates any other compensation scheme? Why can't the passenger choose whether to claim under, say, the NRCoT or passenger charter instead of the scheme operated by Eurail?

The NRCoT states that nothing can reduce the rights afforded under the conditions, so why is this an exemption?

CIV, which applies to Interrail/Eurail tickets, also incorporates special conditions of carriage as mentioned by Watershed:

The CIV incorporate the 'special conditions of carriage' of the relevant operator(s), and the NRCoT explicitly say that the CIV gives additional rights on top of those in the NRCoT.

And if they didn't, perhaps also no because unlike UK rover tickets there is presumably no definition of what value to use for compensation for an individual journey.

I would say they are a type of rover/ranger, but simply have validity internationally as well as nationally.

I can certainly see an argument that it is unreasonable for a TOC to pay out Delay Repay on the full value of a Sailrail ticket as some of it is for non rail travel.

I'd say it's no different to an integrated bus ticket. I've had no issue with delay repay on Belfast SailRail with LNER. In fact, when wires came down on the ECML, they provided 100% compensation for the full return journey and made my holiday travel free.

 

[Starmill]

With that logic, would you say that Interrail tickets should be eligible for passenger charter or NRCoT delay repay, too?

If someone bought an interrail relying on the information on the Avanti West Coast website then yes, without a doubt. I don't see how any other interpretation is possible, unless the Avanti West Coast website includes an exception somewhere that I've not noticed.

I can certainly see an argument that it is unreasonable for a TOC to pay out Delay Repay on the full value of a Sailrail ticket as some of it is for non rail travel.

For any kind of multi-modal ticket it could be reasonable to put forward a calculation for the rail element of the ticket.

The only thing that isn't reasonable would be to argue that there's nothing due.

I am sure Avanti would be more than happy to apply the NRCoT when it suits them - such as charging the passenger the cost of an Anytime Single if they lost their ticket! Any argument to the contrary isn't really convincing; what provisions would apply to luggage, permitted routes or break of journey otherwise, for instance?

Funny isn't it how if the shoe were on the other foot a lot of the same contributors would be arguing that the NRCoT apply to anyone travelling on a train!

 

[AdamWW]

So if there is a compensation scheme, it magically invalidates any other compensation scheme? Why can't the passenger choose whether to claim under, say, the NRCoT or passenger charter instead of the scheme operated by Eurail?

The NRCoT states that nothing can reduce the rights afforded under the conditions, so why is this an exemption?

CIV, which applies to Interrail/Eurail tickets, also incorporates special conditions of carriage as mentioned by Watershed:

I would say they are a type of rover/ranger, but simply have validity internationally as well as nationally.

Those all sound like good points to me. I don't think I would have thought of trying to use Delay Repay for an Interrail pass but I can't argue with the reasoning above.

I hadn't noticed that the NRCoT actually mention CIV. The wording implies to me that CIV applies to all journeys in the UK, not just international ones.

In any case, we don't actually seem to have any evidence that Avanti is trying to claim that Delay Repay isn't valid on the grounds that they are CIV tickets - the one post mentioning them failing to pay out was on the grounds that the ticket was somehow not a valid ticket at all, not that it was valid but that Delay Repay didn't apply.

I'd say it's no different to an integrated bus ticket. I've had no issue with delay repay on Belfast SailRail with LNER. In fact, when wires came down on the ECML, they provided 100% compensation for the full return journey and made my holiday travel free.

That's certainly good to hear.

For any kind of multi-modal ticket it could be reasonable to put forward a calculation for the rail element of the ticket.

The only thing that isn't reasonable would be to argue that there's nothing due.

Yes. But there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for only paying against the rail part so it presumably has to be all of it.

Funny isn't it how if the shoe were on the other foot a lot of the same contributors would be arguing that the NRCoT apply to anyone travelling on a train!

Quite.

There does seem to be a school of thought that the railways are a special case where in the case of any ambiguity the contract must be interpreted in the way that harms the customer the most.

But having looked at it in the context of this thread I think the NRCoT is a mess.

It purports to be a contract that is formed by buying a ticket.

But in that case the terms about when you can board without a ticket can have no validity.

It also has numbered entries which just state obligations under byelaws. Indeed term 19.1 just says that byelaws apply.
Are they arguing that by buying a ticket you're entering into a contract to obey the law?

Nothing wrong with stating these things in information to passengers, but they shouldn't pretend to be part of a contract.
They have information boxes in the document and surely that's the right place for something like this?

Having seen how corporate lawyers go through a contract pulling apart even tiny inconsistencies I think someone could have a lot of fun with this.

But of course it doesn't matter because it's not used in a context where people are in a position to challenge it properly.

 

[BigCj34]

It is worth noting that in the Avanti Passenger's Charter:

For multi-modal tickets, compensation will be provided following receipt of a valid claim for a delay to the rail element of the journey.

It does not say which kind of ticket that only applies to. The only references to an accepted ticket is a valid ticket, which the handwritten one certainly is.

 

[AdamWW]

It is worth noting that in the Avanti Passenger's Charter:

For multi-modal tickets, compensation will be provided following receipt of a valid claim for a delay to the rail element of the journey.

It does not say which kind of ticket that only applies to. The only references to an accepted ticket is a valid ticket, which the handwritten one certainly is.

That seems pretty compelling.

And indeed the only mention in this thread of Avanti refusing a claim is on the (incorrect) grounds that the passenger had been sold an invalid ticket and shouldn't have been travelling on it in the first place.

 

[BigCj34]

That seems pretty compelling.

And indeed the only mention in this thread of Avanti refusing a claim is on the (incorrect) grounds that the passenger had been sold an invalid ticket and shouldn't have been travelling on it in the first place.

I appealed the claim and they accepted it, to the tune of £21.50 for 30-59 minutes delay (ticket cost was €50, £43 charged on my card).

Maybe appealing it meant someone actually looked at it? Or the argument I made above that it was a multi modal ticket with a valid ticket worked? Who knows! Thanks for the replies everyone!

 

[danm14]

I have claimed Delay Repay from Avanti on Rail and Sail tickets - both Irish and UK issued - several times. All claims were accepted without issue and in all cases the amount due was calculated on the full value of the ticket.

When entering the journey details, I have always simply recorded the journey as being to/from Ayr or Holyhead as the online portal does not recognise Dublin, Belfast or the transfer coach between Cairnryan and Ayr.

When claiming on an Irish-issued ticket, I upload one image file consisting of three images - one photograph of the front of the booklet, one photograph of the ticket itself, and one screenshot showing the conversion of the ticket price in Euro into Pounds Sterling.

 

[BigCj34]

Fair enough.

I have claimed Delay Repay from Avanti on Rail and Sail tickets - both Irish and UK issued - several times. All claims were accepted without issue and in all cases the amount due was calculated on the full value of the ticket.

When entering the journey details, I have always simply recorded the journey as being to/from Ayr or Holyhead as the online portal does not recognise Dublin, Belfast or the transfer coach between Cairnryan and Ayr.

When claiming on an Irish-issued ticket, I upload one image file consisting of three images - one photograph of the front of the booklet, one photograph of the ticket itself, and one screenshot showing the conversion of the ticket price in Euro into Pounds Sterling.

Fair enough. To be fair it was possible to input Dublin Ferryport on the Avanti site! Anyway you don't get compensation like that with Ryanair (granted it is only payable if the train is late, not the ferry).

 

[Mainline421]

Yes, also I put Dublin. I'm surprised you got paid on appeal though, I still haven't been paid from December.

 

[danm14]

It seems that Dublin can indeed now be entered as an origin or destination - although Belfast still cannot.