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Delay Repay should be abolished

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tomuk

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-route-in-order-to-minimise-the-delay.236485/

Delay Repay is the biggest load of ****. The whole delay attribution system between the TOCs and NR is decried as a waste of money, money go round etc and it should be abolished/reformed.

What do we do introduce an equivalent for the interface between TOCs and passengers. All I want if for the train to get me where I want to go without unreasonable delay and if there is severe disruption accommodate me with a refund\alternative transport. How does delay repay aid that?
 
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AlterEgo

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Delay Repay is the biggest load of ****. The whole delay attribution system between the TOCs and NR is decried as a waste of money, money go round etc and it should be abolished/reformed.
Those two things are not linked whatsoever.
 

BluePenguin

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If I am delayed and inconvenienced, why should I not be entitled to compensation for said delay? Time is money. If companies have lost either they should be entitled to claim it also.

Of course, getting to my destination on time is important although sometimes that does not happen. I may have to abandon my plans or have less time to spend with the person who I going to visit because of the delay.
 

Llanigraham

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If I am delayed and inconvenienced, why should I not be entitled to compensation for said delay? Time is money. If companies have lost either they should be entitled to claim it also.

Of course, getting to my destination on time is important although sometimes that does not happen. I may have to abandon my plans or have less time to spend with the person who I going to visit because of the delay.

Do I get a payment because I've been delayed by an accident whilst on a car journey between here and Cardiff, so missing a hospital appointment?
No, so why should a train passenger get something?
 

SynthD

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What is the difference between what delay repay was meant to be, and what you want to replace it with? What stops your idea becoming burdensome and unpopular?

Countries with far less privatisation than us still do delay attribution.
 

ainsworth74

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Do I get a payment because I've been delayed by an accident whilst on a car journey between here and Cardiff, so missing a hospital appointment?
No, so why should a train passenger get something?
Because I purchased a service which has not been delivered as advertised. When I drive myself somewhere I have not entered into any such agreement.
 

brad465

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Do I get a payment because I've been delayed by an accident whilst on a car journey between here and Cardiff, so missing a hospital appointment?
No, so why should a train passenger get something?
If anything the fact delay repay is possible on trains but not private transport should incentivise train/public transport use more. For all the issues of fare costs for trains, at least there is compensation potential that's relatively generous. Flight delays offer it too, but the threshold is considerably higher.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would personally like to see a single clearing house for Delay Repay established, at which all applications for both DR and refunds for non-performance (as opposed to discretionary, fee-incurring refunds) would be made regardless of TOC, and they would pay the passenger and sort out who to send the bill to in the background.

In the brave new world of GBR this could be nicely integrated into your single railway account where you could also buy tickets, get lost e-ticket seasons cancelled and reissued etc.
 

BrianW

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It should go. Delay repay is a cost whether it be borne by all rail travellers or by taxpayers. Attempts have been made to quantify the costs, including the 'vast army of bureaucrats', esp e.g,. regarding 'attribution' ,though I forget the 'results'. It's part of the blame culture- it's 'someone's fault', 'someone must pay', and our understanadable irritations at delay.
I would personally like to see a single clearing house for Delay Repay established, at which all applications for both DR and refunds for non-performance (as opposed to discretionary, fee-incurring refunds) would be made regardless of TOC, and they would pay the passenger and sort out who to send the bill to in the background.
If Delay Repay is shown to reduce or mitigate the anger directed to staff 'on the spot' then I would be supportive. I take the points about 'contract', and about 'thresholds', and recognise that I may be seen as saying 'get over it, chill ...' so stopping there.
 

Bletchleyite

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It should go. Delay repay is a cost whether it be borne by all rail travellers or by taxpayers. Attempts have been made to quantify the costs, including the 'vast army of bureaucrats', esp e.g,. regarding 'attribution' ,though I forget the 'results'. It's part of the blame culture- it's 'someone's fault', 'someone must pay', and our understanadable irritations at delay.

The thing is it mostly is someone's fault. You'd expect a discount if something else was not delivered as described, e.g. a builder took three times as long to complete your kitchen as he said he would because he'd taken on too much work, which is almost directly analogous to Avanti's failure to staff adequately to operate the timetabled service.

It's not like the whole "you tripped over and sued the shop because you weren't looking where you were going" - it's a partial refund for not delivering the service that was proposed to you when you decided to purchase it. The timetable is core to the railway's offering - however much they may claim otherwise, the product is "being taken from A to B leaving at xx:xx and arriving at yy:yy". That's the basis on which most decisions to purchase are made.

I probably would consider dropping Delay Repay 15, it's a small refund for a very minor delay, but I'd offset it by packing in claiming that if you have a train at 10:00 and one at 10:30, if the 10:30 arrives one minute early then that's not a 30 minute delay, because it de-facto is, as the 10:00 probably arrived one minute early too due to wilfully inserted recovery time. If a cancellation takes place and you take the train timetabled 30 minutes later, then that should be considered a 30 minute delay, not a 29 minute one. I did get paid out on appeal with text that quite pointedly accused them of taking the mick, using evidence from Realtime Trains of every single train that day that ran (other than the cancelled one) having arrived one minute early, but it must happen a lot without being appealed or with the appeal being refused.

I think I'd also consider, and I know many on here won't like it, tying it to the ticket, so if you use splits you can claim only on individual ticketed legs, as that makes things much simpler and thus cheaper to operate with far less human intervention needed. You get a discount by splitting, so there's no reason you shouldn't be entitled to a bit less DR in return for that, and sometimes it'll be to your benefit anyway, e.g. being able to claim for part of a journey even if it didn't delay the overall split journey due to the connection being long or a break of journey being intended. Obviously I wouldn't change passenger rights to e.g. taxis/hotels for combinations of splits. Or as an alternative it would be allowed on splits but only if they were booked on a single booking reference, and in that case any attempt to make partial claims on a per-ticket basis would be refused.
 
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Killingworth

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This delay issue is deeper than repayment of fares. When in Sheffield I nearly always see at least one cancelled train or one delayed by half an hour or more even when the weather's fine and no strikes. More often than not there's no advice given as to how travellers should get to their destination. With the complexity of routes and ticket pricing that may be understandable. At a large station information can usually be found .

On Sunday a young man got to Hathersage in good time for the regular timetabled 18.32 to Manchester. Cancelled, but no CIS or staff to say so. But it wasn't cancelled because it had been withdrawn a day or two before, he now knows. He waited for the 19.32 and inevitably it was also cancelled. Hopefully he caught the 20.32 that did run.

As far as he is concerned he'll not choose the railway as first choice for a future journey. Delay repay makes minimal difference.

Regular users know how to claim. The occasional user probably doesn't and very often won't, it's too much hassle.

Should it be abolished? It certainly should be easier to claim. If it were the industry might be paying out many times as much as it does.

How is it made easier to claim? Given the very complexity of routing and ticket deals it would be incredibly difficult to make automatic.

Aa it stands it's one stick/twig for beating the industry in the forlorn hope of getting more reliable services. It hardly seems to make any difference, but at least the passenger gets some recompense.

Compensation for missing a flight, wedding, sports match, vital business meeting etc. would open an amazing can of worms.
.
 

ainsworth74

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It should go. Delay repay is a cost whether it be borne by all rail travellers or by taxpayers. Attempts have been made to quantify the costs, including the 'vast army of bureaucrats', esp e.g,. regarding 'attribution' ,though I forget the 'results'. It's part of the blame culture- it's 'someone's fault', 'someone must pay', and our understanadable irritations at delay.
Delay Attribution (the thing that gets lots of angry column inches and politicians have picked up on as a waste of money) is not the same thing as Delay Repay and indeed the former has no bearing on the latter.
 

Dr Hoo

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Delay Attribution (the thing that gets lots of angry column inches and politicians have picked up on as a waste of money) is not the same thing as Delay Repay and indeed the former has no bearing on the latter.
Quite; and was, of course, developed and introduced by BR before privatisation for the purposes of improving performance.

Having ‘managed’ performance the old way - sifting through control logs, train registers, platform tick sheets, guards’ journals and so on before firing a few ‘Please explain’ memos off well after the events, I well understand why the change was needed!
 

Bertie the bus

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-route-in-order-to-minimise-the-delay.236485/

Delay Repay is the biggest load of ****. The whole delay attribution system between the TOCs and NR is decried as a waste of money, money go round etc and it should be abolished/reformed.

What do we do introduce an equivalent for the interface between TOCs and passengers. All I want if for the train to get me where I want to go without unreasonable delay and if there is severe disruption accommodate me with a refund\alternative transport. How does delay repay aid that?
Your argument doesn't stand up at all. You can claim Delay Repay if your train is delayed for any reason at all whereas you could only claim what it replaced if the delay was within the control of the rail industry. Therefore, Delay Repay should reduce bureaucracy as there is no requirement to determine the cause of the delay.
 

BrianW

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Delay Attribution (the thing that gets lots of angry column inches and politicians have picked up on as a waste of money) is not the same thing as Delay Repay and indeed the former has no bearing on the latter.
Thank you for this reminder/ pointing out of that differentiation. If I understand this correctly, both involve staff, time and costs. Of course I (if not the writers of angry column inches or politicians) would be sad to see those staff thrown out of work, preferring to see redeployment, retraining and whatever is important to enable them to undertake more useful and rewarding tasks. Thinking about it more, maybe the issuing of delay repayments is rewarding, so I'm open to a rethink.
Quite; and was, of course, developed and introduced by BR before privatisation for the purposes of improving performance.

Having ‘managed’ performance the old way - sifting through control logs, train registers, platform tick sheets, guards’ journals and so on before firing a few ‘Please explain’ memos off well after the events, I well understand why the change was needed!
Is there 'evidence' of a 'return on investment'? ie that services have been improved by such?
Your argument doesn't stand up at all. You can claim Delay Repay if your train is delayed for any reason at all whereas you could only claim what it replaced if the delay was within the control of the rail industry. Therefore, Delay Repay should reduce bureaucracy as there is no requirement to determine the cause of the delay.
Continuing to show my ignorance, is there a system in place to reclaim the cost from those causing delay, eg those who cause accidents that result in 'consequential' train delays? [I seem to recall my brother being sent a claim from the NHS for his time in hospital when he was involved in a motorcycle accident, which he contended was not his fault.]
 

Dr Hoo

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Is there 'evidence' of a 'return on investment'? ie that services have been improved by such?
Absolutely. The concept of Marginal Revenue Effect and an elasticity of demand in relation to performance (as well as for journey time, frequency, through trains v. interchange and so on) was a key aspect of passenger demand forecasting

Very simply, an unpunctual journey will reduce people’s propensity to take trips in future. Obviously major delays will have more effect. As a former Service Group Manager I could see revenue dropping off as we went through a ‘rough patch’, engineering work and so on.

The Performance Regimes are calibrated accordingly. After the Hatfield derailment in 2000 around £2,000,000,000 was paid out by Railtrack over the next few years. This had a recognisable fit with the dent in passenger growth and revenue over that time.

It is often well worth spending to improve performance, thanks to the insight that Delay Attribution alone can provide.

(This is not connected with Delay Repay, which works on a journey basis rather than a train basis.)
 

Techniquest

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Absolutely no way would I dispose of Delay Repay! I had a 103 minute wait (instead of 3!) on Sunday. My fare was only £6.90, and I will get £3.45 back, which I'm happy with. I was all set for having a meal when I returned from my afternoon out cycling in the hills, but with the significant delay I ended up spending £7.18 in Subway. So the £3.45 will help balance things out a bit, and rightly so with such a huge delay. I will have to wait several days for it though, as TfW don't do refunds to cards, they will by BACS but that takes so long it's crazy!
 

XAM2175

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I will have to wait several days for it though, as TfW don't do refunds to cards, they will by BACS but that takes so long it's crazy!
In finance administration terms, as well as legally, Delay Repay is categorically not a refund - thus you won't find a single TOC offering to process DR as a refund to a credit or debit card.
 

Bletchleyite

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In finance administration terms, as well as legally, Delay Repay is categorically not a refund - thus you won't find a single TOC offering to process DR as a refund to a credit or debit card.

There is actually one - LNER, only if claimed on the app using the "single click" process. I was surprised to see it.
 

Techniquest

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In finance administration terms, as well as legally, Delay Repay is categorically not a refund - thus you won't find a single TOC offering to process DR as a refund to a credit or debit card.

Then what do WMR (amongst others) class it as when they offer payments to your card? Refund is probably not the right word, but it's what I chose at the time. From memory of WMR's Delay Repay claiming system, I could have my compensation (is that the more appropriate word? I'm genuinely asking, I'd like to be sure) sent via BACS, credit/debit card, PayPal or make it a charitable donation. TfW is different, with BACS, PayPal, RTV or donation.
 

tbtc

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Delay Attribution is a great concept

If the railway wants to learn where it goes wrong/ which services are regularly delayed/ which problems are the biggest priority to solve then it needs to assess good quality data on how it is performing

In this digital era that shouldn’t require thousands of ledgers and quill pens, it should be easy to trace in the way that major football teams collect possession stats

If I were a football manager I’d want to know which players were most accurate in their passing/ tackling/ converting the most ground - similarly if I were a railway manager I’d want to know whether the timetable worked in practice on a regular basis (e.g. are an unsustainable number of trains trying to get through a flat junction each hour/ is everything so tightly timed that there’s no chance of recovering from a five minute delay in the morning rush hour/ does my struggling rolling stock need a special “leaf fall” timetable on some routes during autumn/ Do my trains accelerate fast enough to keep up with the timetable or do we need to consider slowing services or faster trains?)

You’d then be in a position to make the case to Network Rail / the DfT that certain issues are the biggest problems so that investment can be focused on those areas (especially if you can show how much it cost the industry in compensation!)

Because on our busy railway (barely bigger than BR days but with significantly more trains crammed into that infrastructure and twice the passengers) one morning conflict between a randomly timed freight train slow to accelerate from a standing start at a red signal in the West Midlands can knock out an XC service by a handful of minutes meaning it never recovers and starts to hurt local trains all the way to Plymouth/ Edinburgh - it may look like a minor thing but it has repercussions (e.g. given the lack of overtaking operations, an XC leaving Sheffield five minutes late might find itself behind the Dearne Valley stopper by the time it gets to Aldwarke and then gets stuck behind this 75mph service at several stations meaning it’s half an hour late at Leeds, so by the time it gets awarded any spare path out of the east end of Leeds the delays will be getting more and more… ). Whereas there are some delays that occur regularly but there’s enough slack in the timetable to allow trains to bounce back.

I think that a lot of the dislike of Delay Attribution comes from this Daily Mail-esque view that anyone not doing a front line job like Driver or Guard (or Doctor or Nurse, or Teacher or Classroom Assistant) is just a “pen pushing bureaucrat” and everything would work fine if we abolished such jobs

Good quality data on your organisation is priceless - why would you not want to compile it?
 

DanNCL

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Do I get a payment because I've been delayed by an accident whilst on a car journey between here and Cardiff, so missing a hospital appointment?
No, so why should a train passenger get something?
Do you have a contract with your car to get you to your destination on time? No.
 

markymark2000

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I think that delay repay is good for longer delays but useless for smaller delays and especially for lower price tickets. If it were me in charge, I think I would increase the 15 minute delay up to 20 minutes and put in a clause saying that any repay which would equal less than £5 is not claimable.

Firstly, the increase of delay time is that 15 minutes isn't actually that much and not really that disruptive to your day. Nowhere else would you get a repay scheme as generous as that. 20 minutes is when things, in my opinion, start becoming a bit of an issue and meetings get cancelled. It may not seem like much of an increase but it reduces the amount of people able to claim back money.

Secondly, the introduction of the rule, no repay less than than £5 would save staff time and money. Why should staff or systems be sorting out payments for such little money. It's a waste of resources and will cost more to arrange the payment than the payment is even worth it. The railway costs a lot of money to run and funds certainly shouldn't be spent sorting delay repay for small change.


I'd certainly make a central delay repay website and then have a central team deal with it and work out who is responsible as I think it's unfair for passengers to work out which TOC caused the delay and claim from there and I do think people get confused by who to go to for delay repay so a central site, probably ran by Rail Delivery Group, would be much easier for people to deal with.
 

bramling

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If I am delayed and inconvenienced, why should I not be entitled to compensation for said delay? Time is money. If companies have lost either they should be entitled to claim it also.

Of course, getting to my destination on time is important although sometimes that does not happen. I may have to abandon my plans or have less time to spend with the person who I going to visit because of the delay.

Is there compensation if delayed on a road journey?

My view is there may be a case for compensation for events where the railway is clearly at fault, but not for events beyond immediate control, such as trespass.

At the end of the day this cost is coming from somewhere. It doesn’t sit well with me to pay for a ticket and indirectly be subsidising someone else’s delay repay, especially as the system is quite open to abuse.

I would rather the industry directed money towards running a reliable service.
 

Halifaxlad

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If I am delayed and inconvenienced, why should I not be entitled to compensation for said delay? Time is money. If companies have lost either they should be entitled to claim it also.

Of course, getting to my destination on time is important although sometimes that does not happen. I may have to abandon my plans or have less time to spend with the person who I going to visit because of the delay.

Perhaps delay repay should be applied to every motorist who misses appointments, deadlines is late for work ?

Back in School if you was late it was your fault and you should have left home earlier.

I do feel that delay repay is just another reason of our namby pampy nation.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Perhaps delay repay should be applied to every motorist who misses appointments, deadlines is late for work ?

Back in School if you was late it was your fault and you should have left home earlier.

I do feel that delay repay is just another reason of our namby pampy nation.
If the school bus was late was it your fault? If they said it was that’s bad schooling!

You can’t change train times, you can however change your driving schedules. As mentioned above, you have entered no contract with your car, should it be the norm for contracts to be broken with no consequence? Like your employment contract as an example?
 

Falcon1200

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No, Delay Repay should be extended to all businesses which, through incompetence, inconvenience their customers; For example, the well-know national hobby and craft supplies chain which last week, thanks to only one till open and therefore a massive queue, caused me to miss a bus and incur a 30 minute delay. Not quite sure how that would be administered, however.....

On a more serious note, Delay Repay should at least operate to the same conditions for all public transport operators; Eg airlines, which compete with rail for certain flows, do not I believe offer anywhere near the railway's obligations, such as payment for externally caused disruption.
 

SuspectUsual

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I think that delay repay is good for longer delays but useless for smaller delays and especially for lower price tickets. If it were me in charge, I think I would increase the 15 minute delay up to 20 minutes and put in a clause saying that any repay which would equal less than £5 is not claimable.

Firstly, the increase of delay time is that 15 minutes isn't actually that much and not really that disruptive to your day. Nowhere else would you get a repay scheme as generous as that. 20 minutes is when things, in my opinion, start becoming a bit of an issue and meetings get cancelled. It may not seem like much of an increase but it reduces the amount of people able to claim back money.

Secondly, the introduction of the rule, no repay less than than £5 would save staff time and money. Why should staff or systems be sorting out payments for such little money. It's a waste of resources and will cost more to arrange the payment than the payment is even worth it. The railway costs a lot of money to run and funds certainly shouldn't be spent sorting delay repay for small change.


I'd certainly make a central delay repay website and then have a central team deal with it and work out who is responsible as I think it's unfair for passengers to work out which TOC caused the delay and claim from there and I do think people get confused by who to go to for delay repay so a central site, probably ran by Rail Delivery Group, would be much easier for people to deal with.


That creates a system which hugely disproportionately impacts people who make shorter, less expensive journeys.

If I travel from home to Leeds or Manchester it’s a journey of 30 - 40 minutes and a ticket costing £10 - £14. Under your proposal I could be delayed by 50% of the journey time every single time and not get a penny back. (And back in the 2018 Northern meltdown, that’s pretty much what was happening)

Why don’t I deserve delay repay in that situation?
 
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