Delay Repay - time discrepancy

[Par]

Travelled from Newport to Manchester yesterday (30/10). The scheduled arrival time was 20:15 in the public timetable (20:14 in the WTT). This train crawled (and I mean crawled) up to the buffer stops on P10. I observed the digital clock on the platform as we passed and it was beyond 20:30 and we were still rolling.

I submitted a Delay Repay claim to TfW, who have rejected it on the basis that their systems show an arrival time of 20:29. I think it quite possible that the front of the train may have entered the station at that time, but as mentioned above, it took a substantial time thereafter to come to a complete halt.

I’ve appealed it, but have no actual evidence (other than my own observations) to support the appeal, so I expect it to be rejected too.

Do I have a valid claim here, if so how might I go about convincing TfW?

Thanks

 

[Trainman40083]

Travelled from Newport to Manchester yesterday (30/10). The scheduled arrival time was 20:15 in the public timetable (20:14 in the WTT). This train crawled (and I mean crawled) up to the buffer stops on P10. I observed the digital clock on the platform as we passed and it was beyond 20:30 and we were still rolling.

I submitted a Delay Repay claim to TfW, who have rejected it on the basis that their systems show an arrival time of 20:29. I think it quite possible that the front of the train may have entered the station at that time, but as mentioned above, it took a substantial time thereafter to come to a complete halt.

I’ve appealed it, but have no actual evidence (other than my own observations) to support the appeal, so I expect it to be rejected too.

Do I have a valid claim here, if so how might I go about convincing TfW?

Thanks

You may find the time they have is the time the train entered the signalling section, not when it came to a stand.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Do I have a valid claim here, if so how might I go about convincing TfW?

Luck of the draw, possibly you don't have a verifiable claim. Might have to chalk this one up to experience...

Realtime Trains | 1649 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly | 30/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 1649 departure from Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly on 30/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Trainman40083]

Luck of the draw, possibly you don't have a verifiable claim. Might have to chalk this one up to experience...

Realtime Trains | 1649 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly | 30/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 1649 departure from Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly on 30/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I see it is timetabled for 14 minutes from Stockport to Manchester, non stop. And took 10, so clearly they have padded the timetable

 

[MrJeeves]

TOCs generally use the data from the customer-facing live info system to calculate Delay Repay, and this can sometimes differ from what sources like Realtime Trains show.

In this case, Darwin (the name of the system) also recorded the arrival time as being 2029 into Manchester Piccadilly, unfortunately.

Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly on 30/10/2024 | Train Timetable

 

[Cuthbert]

Raildar shows it arriving 29:29:18 as well.

 

[Par]

That’s the problem with the system. I expect it is triggered by sensing when the train first enters the station and not when the train comes to complete halt, maybe the experts can confirm?

At the end of the day, all the customer really cares about when considering if they have been delayed or not, is when did the train stop in order for them to alight. In this case, we we still rolling beyond 20:30 and TfW are able to use this technicality to avoid Delay Repay.

Looks like I’ll have to write it off, but definitely irritating.

 

[Cuthbert]

That’s the problem with the system. I expect it is triggered by sensing when the train first enters the station and not when the train comes to complete halt, maybe the experts can confirm?

At the end of the day, all the customer really cares about when considering if they have been delayed or not, is when did the train stop in order for them to alight. In this case, we we still rolling beyond 20:30 and TfW are able to use this technicality to avoid Delay Repay.

Looks like I’ll have to write it off, but definitely irritating.

Also I am not defending TfW but the clocks at stations can be wrong even the digital ones.

 

[hexagon789]

I see it is timetabled for 14 minutes from Stockport to Manchester, non stop. And took 10, so clearly they have padded the timetable

Pathing time isn't 'padding'.

 

[Snow1964]

That’s the problem with the system. I expect it is triggered by sensing when the train first enters the station and not when the train comes to complete halt, maybe the experts can confirm?

At the end of the day, all the customer really cares about when considering if they have been delayed or not, is when did the train stop in order for them to alight. In this case, we we still rolling beyond 20:30 and TfW are able to use this technicality to avoid Delay Repay.

Looks like I’ll have to write it off, but definitely irritating.

Although the customer facing blurb on website talks of arrive at destination, not arriving.

So technically should use the stop time, not signalling section (ie after it passes over the short TPWS grids nearer the buffers, not entry to platform), but doesn't.

There is an argument that Operators who insist on 30 or 40 seconds early to close doors at boarding, should add the same time after stopping at arrival, to ensure doors are opened, so can say arrive rather than still not able to access platform.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Raildar shows it arriving 29:29:18 as well.

Would definitely be eligible if that was the case!

 

[Par]

 

[Cuthbert]

Would definitely be eligible if that was the case!

Oh god fat finger syndrome >.<

 

[_toommm_]

That’s the problem with the system. I expect it is triggered by sensing when the train first enters the station and not when the train comes to complete halt, maybe the experts can confirm?

From memory, the time is recorded as when the train passes the entry signal to the platform, plus a 'berth offset', which is an average time the train takes to get from the point at which it passes the signal, to when it comes to a stop. Sometimes in reality this time can be shorter, for example if the train is coming in on top of another one, but equally it can be longer if, as you say, the train takes a very slow entry into the platform.

(Some part of this may be correct, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will correct me).

In the past, I've argued delay repay based on the times generated by these offsets being wrong, such as the fact that the train I was on had to couple up to another train before letting passengers off, which meant that actually we didn't get on to the station until a good few minutes after internal systems said we arrived; and when the doors have been slow to release further delaying me.

 

[Kite159]

I see it is timetabled for 14 minutes from Stockport to Manchester, non stop. And took 10, so clearly they have padded the timetable

Not as bad as it used to be with TfW where the padding was so bad timetable planners would actually suggest changing at Stockport to board a train 5 minutes later which was timetabled to arrive before the TfW service, even when both were non-stop.

 

[copernicium112]

I had the exact same issue with GWR recently at Paddington - persisted in arguing to them that it was impossible for me to have been off the train before we were 15 minutes late from the data they provided, and with a threat of taking them to the ombudsman they paid out in the end.

 

[Watershed]

If you really want to pursue it, you could consider making a GDPR request for the CCTV footage of your arrival at Piccadilly from Network Rail. That should hopefully show the actual time the doors were released.

Probably overkill given the amount at stake though.

 

[Par]

If you really want to pursue it, you could consider making a GDPR request for the CCTV footage of your arrival at Piccadilly from Network Rail. That should hopefully show the actual time the doors were released.

Probably overkill given the amount at stake though.

The amount at stake is £17.48
The ticket (x2) being a [Railcard discounted] Anytime Return Manchester to Bath Spa (route Hereford) @£69.90.

I’ll see what the appeal brings, but I do expect it to be rejected and I have no additional evidence to support my claim, so I will probably have to just write it off.

It is irritating though, when you know you are correct.

 

[Haywain]

If you really want to pursue it, you could consider making a GDPR request for the CCTV footage of your arrival at Piccadilly from Network Rail. That should hopefully show the actual time the doors were released.

Is that based on the CCTV footage showing a platform clock or an assumption that it will be accurately time stamped? I'm just not sure that a time stamp would be any more reliable.

 

[Watershed]

Is that based on the CCTV footage showing a platform clock or an assumption that it will be accurately time stamped? I'm just not sure that a time stamp would be any more reliable.

There are large platform clocks at Piccadilly which you'd hope the CCTV would capture. I agree that clock synchronisation can be an issue (I once received CCTV footage that was for completely the wrong time, as the system clock was about half an hour out).

However, even if the platform clocks were out of shot, the CCTV footage would still show the speed of approach to the platform, as well as the time elapsed before the doors were released. This may allow some indication of the actual arrival time, when cross-referenced to the time that the train passed the last signal before the station.

 

[Haywain]

I agree that clock synchronisation can be an issue (I once received CCTV footage that was for completely the wrong time, as the system clock was about half an hour out).

My question was based on similar experience.

However, even if the platform clocks were out of shot, the CCTV footage would still show the speed of approach to the platform, as well as the time elapsed before the doors were released. This may allow some indication of the actual arrival time, when cross-referenced to the time that the train passed the last signal before the station.

Yes, a chance it would help rather than a certainty.