Delay reply or refund after cancelled Grand Central service

[dfurn]

Dear all;

I recently was booked with advance tickets (obviously with seat reservations) on a Sunday Grand Central service from London King's Cross to Bradford Interchange. The service was canceled. I was traveling with my wife and seven year-old son.

We proceeded to go to catch the next Virgin East Coast service, only to be told by the staff we were welcome on the train but it was packed like 'sardines' as not only were they dealing with the Grand Central canceled train there was a couple of Virgin services canceled or delayed as well.

We opted to avoid that train and got on the next East Coast service going North. Actually the King's Cross to Glasgow train. This was also packed; I and my wife had to stand in but my son got to perch on standup sort of thing outside the toilet.

We got off the train at Doncaster and jumped on a Northern service to Leeds and then on to Bradford. The Northern services did have seats.

I should have mentioned due to overhead line problems the East Coast service arrived in Doncaster 71 minutes late.

Overall we arrived in Bradford 2 hours and 17 minutes after our Grand Central service should have arrived.

I purchased the tickets via Redspottedhanky. Their site suggests I should claim via Grand Central's website. I'm happy to do this although I fear I'll only get 75% of the ticket cost refunded. I feel this will be pretty poor compensation for what was a dreadful trip.

Any suggestions on how to go about most effectively complaining? I'm minded to follow Grand Central's procedure and, if or when they cough up the 75%, bank that and then further complain (in order) to:

Sean English (Acting Managing Director at Grand Central Rail)
Chris Burchell (Managing Director of Arriva’s UK Trains Division)
Dr. Rüdiger Grube (Chairman and CEO Deutsche Bahn AG)

I might skip the Arriva person to be honest; stamps are annoyingly expensive.

What I'd like is all my money back and an apology at least and ideally an extra complimentary single ticket for all three of us.

I'm aware I might be pushing my luck but we all know Network Rail will have paid lots of compensation to the train operators and I want my fair share regardless of what the poor delay repay offer may be.

 

[221129]

How late would you have been if you did get on the FIRST available train to Bradford?

 

[Paul Duck]

Don't think you will get full refund or free tickets. As with Grand Centrals compensation leaflets you will receive 75% of the cost of a single ticket or 75% of the relevant portion of a return ticket.
They work out the delay based on your arrival time at your destination.
By all means write to customer services, you never know unless you ask.

 

[221129]

Don't think you will get full refund or free tickets. As with Grand Centrals compensation leaflets you will receive 75% of the cost of a single ticket or 75% of the relevant portion of a return ticket.
They work out the delay based on your arrival time at your destination.
By all means write to customer services, you never know unless you ask.

I disagree. I think that as he chose to delay his journey even more then he is possibly only entitled to 50%.

 

[DaleCooper]

stamps are annoyingly expensive.

63p doesn't seem much relative to the amount of compensation you are seeking.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you don't ask you don't get, but bear in mind that the Passenger Charter for Grand Central states they won't pay out if it was "outside the control of Grand Central". The issue this weekend was the overhead wires coming down at Retford, which is why VTEC were so overcrowded. That is clearly outside the control of Grand Central, who do not operate electric trains.

All you can do is appeal to their customer services and see what happens.

 

[dfurn]

How late would you have been if you did get on the FIRST available train to Bradford?

That's a great question which I'd not thought to look into.

The King's Cross to Glasgow service we did travel on left at 1611h. The first East Coast service to Leeds after the canceled 1550h Grand Central left at 1559h. According to realtraintimes that arrived in Leeds 80 minutes late at 1946h! There was a service going to Bradford at 1951h but I don't think we could have caught that in time. So actually the next train would have been the 2025h Leeds to Huddersfield which is the one we caught anyway. In other words we wouldn't have got to Bradford any earlier.

 

[221129]

That's a great question which I'd not thought to look into.

The King's Cross to Glasgow service we did travel on left at 1611h. The first East Coast service to Leeds after the canceled 1550h Grand Central left at 1559h. According to realtraintimes that arrived in Leeds 80 minutes late at 1946h! There was a service going to Bradford at 1951h but I don't think we could have caught that in time. So actually the next train would have been the 2025h Leeds to Huddersfield which is the one we caught anyway. In other words we wouldn't have got to Bradford any earlier.

Ah I see. In which case ignore my later post re the 50%!

Although it does appear that you're not entitled to anything! (I personally feel this is wrong but what can you do)

 

[dfurn]

Ah I see. In which case ignore my later post re the 50%!

Although it does appear that you're not entitled to anything! (I personally feel this is wrong but what can you do)

Oh I think I've been misleading here. I was responding to the question about how late we would have been if we'd caught the very next East Coast service North, rather than the one after the very next. The answer is we'd still have arrived in Bradford 2 hours and 17 minutes later than if we'd traveled on the canceled Grand Central service. Plus we had to stand.

The way I read Grand Central's site is we'd get 75% of the ticket cost as the delay was between 2-3 hours as far as I can see. I think I've hinted I think that's poor compensation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not Delay Repay, but I don't see why it's that poor. You still got there.

 

[221129]

Oh I think I've been misleading here. I was responding to the question about how late we would have been if we'd caught the very next East Coast service North, rather than the one after the very next. The answer is we'd still have arrived in Bradford 2 hours and 17 minutes later than if we'd traveled on the canceled Grand Central service. Plus we had to stand.

The way I read Grand Central's site is we'd get 75% of the ticket cost as the delay was between 2-3 hours as far as I can see. I think I've hinted I think that's poor compensation.

As Grand Central only pay out when it is within their control you appear to be not entitled to anything at all.

 

[dfurn]

Oh yes I forgot to add (don't you hate it when people add supposedly relevant information at a much later date).

As it turned out when I visited the toilet on the Northern service from Doncaster to Leeds traveling in the next carriage was six or seven Grand Central staff all in uniform. They transferred to the same train as us to Bradford. My presumption was that they were the crew from the canceled service.

One of them was looking at his his phone, presumably Twitter, reading out what seemed to be irate comments from passengers. I lingered around to eavesdrop and he definitely read a message from a customer commenting how Virgin East Coast's delay repay was better than Grand Central's. Presumably passengers crammed like sardines on other services were comparing notes. He was laughing. And, as my wife pointed out when she went to have a look, one of them had their feet on the seats. I just couldn't manage to get a good photo of this when I went again to check.

Let's see what Dr. Grube makes of that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As Grand Central only pay out when it is within their control you appear to be not entitled to anything at all.

Oh right I see sorry I misunderstood. How much compensation do you think Grand Central will have got from Network Rail for causing a track situation which they could not run a train on then? I want some of that please.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not Delay Repay, but I don't see why it's that poor. You still got there.

My son got to bed two hours late on what was a night before school on the first day of a new term. That's caused a number of problems within our household, just take it from me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My son got to bed two hours late on what was a night before school on the first day of a new term. That's caused a number of problems within our household, just take it from me.

Things go wrong on trains. You know the way your child reacts to a lack of sleep[1]; perhaps you should have considered travelling earlier if it was imperative you were back by a certain time. You wouldn't be after financial compensation (which, incidentally, will do absolutely nothing to undo the inconvenience whatsoever) if it was because you were sitting in traffic for 2.5 hours due to a road accident.

Along similar lines, if a particular "insurance policy" (Delay Repay) was imperative to you, you should have researched this before travel and chosen differently. VTEC operate full Delay Repay, had you paid to travel with them you would have received a full refund of your return tickets (if not Advance Singles).

[1] Kids deal with adversity very well. Crikey, few of them get more than a couple of hours on the first night of a Scout camp, and rarely does that do much other than make some of them a bit ratty and make them go to sleep early the following night.

 

[TUC]

Dear all;



Any suggestions on how to go about most effectively complaining? I'm minded to follow Grand Central's procedure and, if or when they cough up the 75%, bank that and then further complain (in order) to:

Sean English (Acting Managing Director at Grand Central Rail)
Chris Burchell (Managing Director of Arriva’s UK Trains Division)
Dr. Rüdiger Grube (Chairman and CEO Deutsche Bahn AG)

I might skip the Arriva person to be honest; stamps are annoyingly expensive.

Oh come on. A refund is one thing. Working your way through every possible person to complain to, just in order to get more and more compensation, undermines the system,. Your train got cancelled, so yes you're entitled to the appropriate recompense for that journey, but that aside, get over it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oh right I see sorry I misunderstood. How much compensation do you think Grand Central will have got from Network Rail for causing a track situation which they could not run a train on then?

It could be a billion pounds, it makes not a jot of difference. The T&Cs of the contract you agreed to- the National Rail Conditions of Carriage- are that you are only eligible for compensation if the issue is caused by something within the control of the TOC.

I would expect Grand Central to interpret this as "within the control of the rail industry", and an infrastructure failure is within the control of the industry, but that isn't what the T&Cs say.

If the insurance of Delay Repay was important to you then you should have chosen a TOC which offers that service.

In reality, TOCs will sometimes make ex-gratia offers in addition to this if you ask nicely.

 

[dfurn]

It's frustrating when dealing with an industry that expects nothing ever to go wrong in customer's lives so they always get on trains they book without fail. Then threaten them with legal action if things go wrong and a train is missed or a ticket is mislaid. Yet when the industry screws up they just sit around laughing. Literally in this case. With their feet on the seats.

Thanks everyone for comments. It's good to get various opinions to try and put my thoughts into context. Obviously what happened to me wasn't a matter of life or death.

I'll report back.

 

[221129]

It could be a billion pounds, it makes not a jot of difference. The T&Cs of the contract you agreed to- the National Rail Conditions of Carriage- are that you are only eligible for compensation if the issue is caused by something within the control of the TOC.

I would expect Grand Central to interpret this as "within the control of the rail industry", and an infrastructure failure is within the control of the industry, but that isn't what the T&Cs say.

If the insurance of Delay Repay was important to you then you should have chosen a TOC which offers that service.

In reality, TOCs will sometimes make ex-gratia offers in addition to this if you ask nicely.

Grand Central limit it to things within their control (which the wires coming down is not)

 

[sheff1]

The T&Cs of the contract you agreed to- the National Rail Conditions of Carriage- are that you are only eligible for compensation if the issue is caused by something within the control of the TOC.

I would expect Grand Central to interpret this as "within the control of the rail industry", and an infrastructure failure is within the control of the industry, but that isn't what the T&Cs say.

The NRCoC state that something in the control of a "Rail Service Company" entitles one to compensation (as long as the related delay is at least the minimum specified). Network Rail is a Rail Service Company, hence any infrastructure failure within control of Network Rail triggers compensation.

Grand Central limit it to things within their control

If they do, they are failing to meet their obligations under the NRCoC and such failure should be escalated.

 

[221129]

The NRCoC state that something in the control of a "Rail Service Company" entitles one to compensation (as long as the related delay is at least the minimum specified). Network Rail is a Rail Service Company, hence any infrastructure failure within control of Network Rail triggers compensation.
.

It actually states...

Where delays, cancellations or poor service arise for reasons within the control of
a Train Company or Rail Service Company, you are entitled to compensation in
accordance with the arrangements set out in that Train Company’s Passenger’s
Charter. (My bold)

 

[Haywain]

And the crux of the matter in this case might be why the wires came down.

 

[gray1404]

I would either write to Grand Central enclosing the tickets, or email and attach a copy of them. I would explain what happened and what trains you ended up traveling on. I would then ask for compensation.

Although it has been said that Grand Central do not pay out for circumstances outside of their control, if the circumstances were still within the control of the industry then you may still be entitled to compensation under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. I would not worry about this too much at this point as you need to give Grand Central the chance to reply first and see what you get back.

If you remain unhappy following their reply then you can look at other options open to you, such as asking them to look at it again or going to Transport Focus.

 

[bnm]

It actually states...

Where delays, cancellations or poor service arise for reasons within the control of
a Train Company or Rail Service Company, you are entitled to compensation in
accordance with the arrangements set out in that Train Company’s Passenger’s
Charter. (My bold)

It then goes on to state the minimum you are entitled to. All train operators have to offer that minimum for delays within the control of the rail industry. The OP is entitled to that minimum as the incident that caused his delay was within the rail industry's control. Grand Central in this instance can offer more than is stated in the NRCoC, but can't offer less.

 

[Gemz91]

It's frustrating when dealing with an industry that expects nothing ever to go wrong in customer's lives so they always get on trains they book without fail. Then threaten them with legal action if things go wrong and a train is missed or a ticket is mislaid. Yet when the industry screws up they just sit around laughing. Literally in this case. With their feet on the seats.

Thanks everyone for comments. It's good to get various opinions to try and put my thoughts into context. Obviously what happened to me wasn't a matter of life or death.

I'll report back.

You seem to have a bit of a gripe with the on board staff here, who to be fair could do very little about the whole situation, except for like you, travel back on the next available service, and would have just been delayed like you too (but I appreciate they would have not paid for a ticket like you did).

 

[DaiGog]

Sean English (Acting Managing Director at Grand Central Rail)
Chris Burchell (Managing Director of Arriva’s UK Trains Division)
Dr. Rüdiger Grube (Chairman and CEO Deutsche Bahn AG)

Do you think these people actually deal with complaints themselves? Or do you think, given that these people employ customer services teams to deal with complaints, that they might just pass it back down to their customer services teams to do what they pay them to do?

 

[dfurn]

Do you think these people actually deal with complaints themselves? Or do you think, given that these people employ customer services teams to deal with complaints, that they might just pass it back down to their customer services teams to do what they pay them to do?

A friend of mine used to work in the BT Chairman's office (as it was called then) and I can confirm that people who complained to the Chairman in an often received better resolution than people who may have just called 150 and had a moan. Apparently though it did tend to be MPs who would complain to BT on behalf of their constituents though.

I also have personally complained to the Company Secretary of DSG Retail Limited after I got nowhere with customer services on the phone. They didn't understand the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended), and got what I wanted (a replacement laptop).

So simple answer to your question: yes.

 

[AlterEgo]

So did you get what you wanted? I see it's still bothering you four months later.

 

[Clip]

A friend of mine used to work in the BT Chairman's office (as it was called then) and I can confirm that people who complained to the Chairman in an often received better resolution than people who may have just called 150 and had a moan. Apparently though it did tend to be MPs who would complain to BT on behalf of their constituents though.

I also have personally complained to the Company Secretary of DSG Retail Limited after I got nowhere with customer services on the phone. They didn't understand the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended), and got what I wanted (a replacement laptop).

So simple answer to your question: yes.

You may have got a reply from them but it more than likely would've been written and handled by the head of customer services and not the chairman.

How did you delay repay go with Grand Central though?

 

[dfurn]

How did you delay repay go with Grand Central though?

Grand Central sent me a cheque for £25.38. I wasn't satisfied that this covered the disruption and upset caused by their failure (caused by them or not) to run the service. So I wrote a letter explaining why I wasn't happy and they have send me scratchcards valid for a year for three single Grand Central journeys. I now consider the matter closed.