delays getting to advanced booked train

[beanwalls]

Hi All,

Hypothetical question - If I'm travelling from South East London (Hither Green, Catford or even Croydon) to London Bridge using Oyster or contactless to then cycle to Liverpool Street to catch advanced booked train, and am delayed on that first part of the journey and don't make the second train - can I get on the next available train or do I have to buy another ticket?

I assume that if I bought rail ticket for my whole journey and the first train was delayed or cancelled I'd be able to do that. But if the first part is via Oyster then I wouldn't. Is that correct?

(I hope that makes sense)

 

[MikeWh]

It makes sense, yes. If you touch in at the first station in time to get a train to London Bridge which meets the minimum connection time between arrival at London Bridge and departure from Liverpool Street, but are delayed arriving at London Bridge, then you should be able to get your ticket endorsed for onward travel. Liverpool Street has full Oyster facilities at the ticket office so they should be able to see what has happened.

Even though cycling is likely to be quicker than the tube, you must leave the official minimum connection time. I'd also recommend touching in on time even if you know that the train is cancelled so you can prove that it's the railways fault at Liverpool Street.

 

[beanwalls]

That's brilliant - thank you.

How do I find out what the minimum connection time is? And what are the chances it's going to be a lot longer than it actually takes?

 

[MikeWh]

How do I find out what the minimum connection time is?

From brtimes.com:

London Bridge connection time: 10 min
London Bridge to Liverpool Street: 25 min*
Liverpool Street connection time: 15 min

So the total connection between arrival at London Bridge and departure from Liverpool Street is 50 minutes.

And what are the chances it's going to be a lot longer than it actually takes?

Quite high! But on the plus side, it'll need to be a bad delay to cause you to miss your connection.

* 25 mins becomes 30 mins between midnight and 7am when the Underground isn't running, or is not at full capacity.

 

[30907]

That's brilliant - thank you.

How do I find out what the minimum connection time is?

Alternatively, put your origin and your destination arrival time into an online journey planner - it will show you the latest allowable departure.
(NB - don't use the "reduce cross London time" option on NRE)

 

[beanwalls]

Wait... 50mins!?

I'm looking for places to live in south east london but need to get a train out of London from Liverpool Street or Stratford a couple of days a week. Lots of places arrive into London Bridge and I can cycle to Liverpool Street in around 10mins (I'm told) so should be able to arrive into LB at 7:05am and easily get a 7:30am train from Liverpool Street.

I'd have to book the Liverpool Street train in advance to get a decent price. But if the LB train was ever more than 10mins late, I could be in trouble...

 

[_toommm_]

Wait... 50mins!?

I'm looking for places to live in south east london but need to get a train out of London from Liverpool Street or Stratford a couple of days a week. Lots of places arrive into London Bridge and I can cycle to Liverpool Street in around 10mins (I'm told) so should be able to arrive into LB at 7:05am and easily get a 7:30am train from Liverpool Street.

I'd have to book the Liverpool Street train in advance to get a decent price. But if the LB train was ever more than 10mins late, I could be in trouble...

It's quite high as it has to take into account the minimum connection times at each station as well as the transfer - in practice, a lot of these can be halved. One transfer I do alot is from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Victoria - I know I can do it in 15 minutes, but officially I have to leave 37 minutes which is pretty silly

 

[beanwalls]

Right. So if I want to be able to not worry about train delays etc then I have to leave 50mins between connections. That's never going to happen. I can walk from LB to Liverpool Street in 20 mins so 50 is nutty.

If I'm not going to leave that amount of time then if my first rain is late or cancelled etc I wont be able to get on the next available second train with my advance ticket, right? I'll have to hope for the best and buy another ticket if it all goes wrong?

Thanks all.

 

[beanwalls]

It's quite high as it has to take into account the minimum connection times at each station as well as the transfer - in practice, a lot of these can be halved. One transfer I do alot is from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Victoria - I know I can do it in 15 minutes, but officially I have to leave 37 minutes which is pretty silly

So you don't leave 37 minutes? And has there ever been an issue?

 

[alistairlees]

Well if you don’t leave 50 minutes then you’re not entitled to anything if you are delayed by your inbound rail journey / the tube, and miss your train for which you have an Advance ticket. Seems pretty clear to me.

What you might consider doing is thinking about it from the perspective of the wider population. For many people, this will be an unfamiliar journey crossing London - they need time to navigate the tube, which is complex and not that easy to the uninitiated. Other people are not able to walk that fast, or run, perhaps because they have a mobility impairment, they are elderly, they have children / pushchairs, or they have lots of luggage.

All these groups will need a considerable amount of time to connect between London terminals.

The minimum allowed time is designed to enable all groups to reasonably make their connections, even allowing for a small amount of delay on their inbound journey or on the tube.

This seems to be a very reasonable approach to me.

 

[Trainfan344]

Considering you should really be aiming to be on your train at Liverpool Street 5 minutes before departure at the latest, if your inbound is 10-15 minutes late you'll be glad of a longer connection, if everything runs to time you can always grab a coffee or something from Liverpool Street.

 

[yorkie]

Hi All,

Hypothetical question - If I'm travelling from South East London (Hither Green, Catford or even Croydon) to London Bridge using Oyster or contactless to then cycle to Liverpool Street to catch advanced booked train, and am delayed on that first part of the journey and don't make the second train - can I get on the next available train or do I have to buy another ticket?

I assume that if I bought rail ticket for my whole journey and the first train was delayed or cancelled I'd be able to do that. But if the first part is via Oyster then I wouldn't. Is that correct?

(I hope that makes sense)

Using Hither Green to Norwich as an example (as we don't know the actual destination), departing 1336 on 1st July, Trainsplit is offering a through Advance single for £15.90; it's not cheaper to split if using paper tickets.

But it is cheaper using PAYG.

The Advance fare from Liverpool St to Norwich is £10, with the PAYG fare from Hither Green to London priced at £2.90, so that offers a saving of £3.

Are you taking your bike on the train?

I would strongly advise obtaining an itinerary for your full journey at the time of purchase, and ensure that all minimum interchange times are met. This will give you complete security under contract and consumer laws.

Some sites will let you choose additional interchange time which can be handy if you want to have a meal en-route, and let you book a specific seat using a seat selector, and that sort of thing. But you cannot specify a reduced interchange time.

By all means save £3 by using a combination of PAYG + paper ticket, however if you do this, make sure you allow the minimum interchange times. I would also obtain an itinerary from National Rail Enquiries at the time of booking and this could be used as evidence of validity in the event of disruption.

Note trains can be retimed at short notice and this can cause problems, especially if you lack evidence of the itinerary at the time of booking.

 

[beanwalls]

I'd be travelling to Colchester. The commute is already very long (2+ hours door to door) so allowing 50 minutes between trains isn't going to happen. I've been booking advance tickets and crossing London using the tube and overground for a few years and never missed a train, but there were always a few options if there was a problem with one route and it wouldn't be the case with this route.

I have previously also gone direct to Stratford, arriving on the central line right into the station and only 30 seconds away from the platform my connecting train left from.

This is really helpful information. It's great to be able to talk it through. I might have to cancel out train only areas to live though...

 

[185143]

Last time I had what on paper was a (deliberate, mostly) excessively long connection across London, I was lucky to make the train!

I'd come into Liverpool Street from Clacton, just missing a connection at Colchester. I had a fair while to wait for the next one, which lost about 25 minutes en route to London. Then there were delays on the tube to Euston Square as well. I was travelling back up North on WMT, so had intended to go and have a sit down meal in 'Spoons at LST, which I had plenty of time to do. I ended up ordering a Nandos when I got on the tube and picking it up on the way into Euston, walking straight onto the train about 8 minutes before departure. Had I left less than the minimum connection, I'd have been ****ed as it was the last train.

I've done many cross London connections and it normally is indeed much quicker than on paper, but that night was real life proof that nothing is ever guaranteed.

 

[beanwalls]

Last time I had what on paper was a (deliberate, mostly) excessively long connection across London, I was lucky to make the train!

I'd come into Liverpool Street from Clacton, just missing a connection at Colchester. I had a fair while to wait for the next one, which lost about 25 minutes en route to London. Then there were delays on the tube to Euston Square as well. I was travelling back up North on WMT, so had intended to go and have a sit down meal in 'Spoons at LST, which I had plenty of time to do. I ended up ordering a Nandos when I got on the tube and picking it up on the way into Euston, walking straight onto the train about 8 minutes before departure. Had I left less than the minimum connection, I'd have been ****ed as it was the last train.

I've done many cross London connections and it normally is indeed much quicker than on paper, but that night was real life proof that nothing is ever guaranteed.

Very true. Nothing is guaranteed. But I have been able to (for the last 4 years) never miss my 7:25am pre-booked train from Stratford when crossing London from Clapham/Battersea and leaving my house at 6:20am. I've had maybe four close calls in that time, but have almost always got to the platform with 10 minutes or more to spare.

I use the overground for most of the journey, but it is great to have an all tube back up option if the overground line is down.

I've had many more problems with the Stratford to Colchester part of the journey than I have with the crossing London section.

With that in mind, it seems best to make sure I've got at least one alternative route to take, should the normal one not be possible for some reason.

 

[MikeWh]

If you're coming in from the south then Shoreditch High Street is about 5 mins walk from Liverpool Street.

 

[beanwalls]

If you're coming in from the south then Shoreditch High Street is about 5 mins walk from Liverpool Street.

Thank you! Good point. But the trains I'm getting all pass through Stratford too, and rather than going to Shoreditch High Street I can get off at Whitechapel and usually be on the platform at Stratford station within 10 minutes.

Athough, if the tube wasn't running and the overground was - that would be a very handy back up route, especially as if it's a 5 minute walk then it's got to be only a couple of minutes cycle.

It's having a back up plan from Croydon that's problematic...

 

[beanwalls]

Hi all,

I'm a little confused about how to figure out the connection times. I'm thinking that Norwood Junction might be a viable option and a little bit easier conection wise. I can get to London Bridge or Farringdon or Stratford direct from there so it gives me a few options.

The Greater Anglia site gave me this as a potential (screen shot attached) route, which minimises the travel time quite well. Does this mean it works within the minimum connection times? I'm a little confused about how to figure them out...

Thanks all!

 

[freddie1729]

The Greater Anglia site gave me this as a potential (screen shot attached) route, which minimises the travel time quite well. Does this mean it works within the minimum connection times? I'm a little confused about how to figure them out...

Journey planners will automatically apply the minimum connection times (unless you select "reduce time through London" on National Rail Enquiries).

The minimum connection time from Farringdon to Liverpool Street is 27 minutes (after 7am). 3 minutes for Farringdon, 9 minutes for the tube and 15 minutes for Liverpool Street.

 

[beanwalls]

Thank you! I was thinking that was how it worked, but couldn't find a good connection from Croydon stations. Maybe it's Farringdon that's making the difference..?

The same train also stops at London Bridge. Could I get off there and cycle (save the cost and not be in the tube with a bike at a potentially busy time) and it still be covered by the connection time should the train into London Bridge be delayed?

 

[MotCO]

I'd also recommend touching in on time even if you know that the train is cancelled so you can prove that it's the railways fault at Liverpool Street.

Can you please clarify? Is this at Hither Green, or Liverpool Street? If at Liverpool Street, what would you touch in if you were travelling on a paper ticket for the third leg of the journey? (Second leg being Charing Cross to Liverpool Street.)

 

[221129]

The same train also stops at London Bridge. Could I get off there and cycle (save the cost and not be in the tube with a bike at a potentially busy time) and it still be covered by the connection time should the train into London Bridge be delayed?

If you get off at London Bridge it would be the London Bridge connection time you need.

 

[mmh]

If you get off at London Bridge it would be the London Bridge connection time you need.

In practice however, who would know? You'd be asking the ticket office or a guard at Liverpool Street to use a later train because your train to London was late. If you thought they might check where you changed and act differently, you could stay on the train and change at Farringdon knowing you could have a printed itinerary meeting the connection times. If the train's on time, just get off at London Bridge as you'll be on time for the Liverpool Street train.

Could staff at Liverpool Street tell where you'd been using Oyster, and if so would they bother? Would they even bother checking that the train from Croydon / Norwood Junction was late?

I commuted to London from Norwood Junction for nearly 20 years, other than during the rebuild of London Bridge the service was pretty reliable, and got better, if slightly less frequent, after the new Thameslink and Southern timetable.

 

[philthetube]

Thank you! I was thinking that was how it worked, but couldn't find a good connection from Croydon stations. Maybe it's Farringdon that's making the difference..?

The same train also stops at London Bridge. Could I get off there and cycle (save the cost and not be in the tube with a bike at a potentially busy time) and it still be covered by the connection time should the train into London Bridge be delayed?

I assume you are aware that you cannot use the sub surface lines in the peak and the deep level tube at any time.

 

[beanwalls]

If you get off at London Bridge it would be the London Bridge connection time you need.

And is that different? If it's much less from Farrigndon then I'll just stay on. The cost is the same.

 

[beanwalls]

In practice however, who would know? You'd be asking the ticket office or a guard at Liverpool Street to use a later train because your train to London was late. If you thought they might check where you changed and act differently, you could stay on the train and change at Farringdon knowing you could have a printed itinerary meeting the connection times. If the train's on time, just get off at London Bridge as you'll be on time for the Liverpool Street train.

Could staff at Liverpool Street tell where you'd been using Oyster, and if so would they bother? Would they even bother checking that the train from Croydon / Norwood Junction was late?

I commuted to London from Norwood Junction for nearly 20 years, other than during the rebuild of London Bridge the service was pretty reliable, and got better, if slightly less frequent, after the new Thameslink and Southern timetable.

That's a great question. I like your thinking! Would they check that? It's the late running of the train to London Bridge or Farringdon that would be the issue, and would anyone care how I got to Liverpool Street.

I even thought I could have a ticket from Liverpool Street and if I wanted, go on the overground to Stratford instead of Liverpool Street. This would take a little longer but if I had time, I wouldn't have to cycle and I'd arrive inside Stratford station so just need to touch out on contactless and hop on the booked train as it passes through from Liverpool Street.

 

[beanwalls]

I assume you are aware that you cannot use the sub surface lines in the peak and the deep level tube at any time.

I have a folding bike, so think I can go on any trains/tubes with it. Although, I try and avoid it as much as possible!

 

[30907]

I even thought I could have a ticket from Liverpool Street and if I wanted, go on the overground to Stratford instead of Liverpool Street. This would take a little longer but if I had time, I wouldn't have to cycle and I'd arrive inside Stratford station so just need to touch out on contactless and hop on the booked train as it passes through from Liverpool Street.

Technically your Advance is not valid to board at Stratford - but as there is no barrier line to pass through (?) you won't have problems. But you'd have to make sure your LST train stopped there which the 0730 doesnt!

 

[beanwalls]

Technically your Advance is not valid to board at Stratford - but as there is no barrier line to pass through (?) you won't have problems. But you'd have to make sure your LST train stopped there which the 0730 doesnt!

That's true, but because the tube goes inside the station, there are no barriers so it's possible to get on there. And yes, you're right some of the trains from LS don't stop at Stratford. The Greater Anglia site says the 0730 does though, at 0738, is that wrong?

 

[MikeWh]

Can you please clarify? Is this at Hither Green, or Liverpool Street? If at Liverpool Street, what would you touch in if you were travelling on a paper ticket for the third leg of the journey? (Second leg being Charing Cross to Liverpool Street.)

It's at your start station (Hither Green, Norwood Junction or wherever). Basically you are proving that you tried to use a valid itinerary.

The 0730 from Liverpool Street does call at Stratford. It's actually a valid connection using the Jubilee line from London Bridge to Stratford having arrived on the 0638 from Norwood Junction.