Denied boarding at Euston

[alloverplace]

Hi,

I've been a reader here for a little while - thought it was time I made a post, as some members might be interested in my recent experience with Avanti at Euston.

I attempted to travel on the 21:25 from Euston (towards Manchester Piccadilly) on Sunday, planning to get off at Milton Keynes Central. My ticket was a Super-off-peak Day Travelcard from Wolverton, route "via Watford Junction". I arrived at the manual barrier, ticket in hand, about 5 minutes before departure.

As you've probably guessed from the title, I didn't get on! On pressing for a reason why they thought my ticket was invalid, I was told that "it says Watford junction, we don't stop there, you have to catch London Northwestern". My (polite) attempts to challenge got me nowhere. When I asked the inspector to check with a colleague, the person next to them took one look at my ticket and said something like "you can't use those travelcards on Avanti".

I eventually found another member of staff over by the ticket machines who confirmed that the ticket was valid - but by this time the train was long gone. I know Euston barrier has a bit of a reputation, but I didn't think my ticked choice was really that obscure!

I've submitted a complaint to Avanti online, so we'll see if that gets anywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good lord, that's grossly incompetent even by their standards. I wonder did they also refuse MKC Travelcards which also have that route (which is to prevent you going via Bedford as it undercuts the fare from there).

You should, as a minimum, insist on Delay Repay for the difference between the time the 2125 would have got you to Wolverton and the time you actually did (or if you ended your journey at MKC then the intended and actual times there).

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeah they're talking nonsense, as per usual for Euston gateline, who are terminally incompetent. Nothing ever surprises me with those guys.

Do make sure you ask for a minimum of the Delay Repay amount for the delay you suffered, as well as reassurance that the ticket was valid so you can use the correspondence in future.

 

[Hadders]

This is absolutely terrible from Avanti. Please do raise a complaint with Avanti, and also log it with London Travelwatch. I expect you will be fobbed off by Avanti in the first instance but please do persist. It is about time these cowboys were bought to heel.

 

[N0G83]

Yeah they're talking nonsense, as per usual for Euston gateline, who are terminally incompetent. Nothing ever surprises me with those guys.

Do make sure you ask for a minimum of the Delay Repay amount for the delay you suffered, as well as reassurance that the ticket was valid so you can use the correspondence in future.

Could a request for a Avanti or Network Rail Duty Manager to attend when having these issues at the gateline?

 

[Hadders]

Could a request for a Avanti or Network Rail Duty Manager to attend when having these issues at the gateline?

Network Rail aren’t anything to do with tickets and the Avanti Manager, if available, is likely to just close ranks with their member of staff.

We recently had a case on here where a passenger was denied travel with a Travelcard and a Boundary Zone fare. Eventually Avanti conceded that they were wrong but it took several escalations.

The change to ‘via Watford Junction’ rather than Any Permitted is supposed to make things simpler for everyone to understand. It’s disgraceful that Avanti can get something so simple so wrong.

 

[Watershed]

it says Watford junction, we don't stop there, you have to catch London Northwestern

Beyond what others have said, I think it's also worth pointing out that, Avanti do stop at Watford Junction (albeit pick up only in the northbound direction), and that in any event the restriction will have been printed on the ticket as "Valid only via (changing trains or passing through) Watford Junction". There's nothing there which says you have to call at Watford Junction; indeed the "passing through" bit makes abundantly clear that passing through non-stop is permitted - otherwise why wouldn't it say "stopping at"?

Sadly the Avanti staff at the Euston barrier line are notorious for making up rules like this, and Avanti seem to have no more interest in bringing them into line than Virgin Trains did during their tenure. It's just one of those issues where you've got to make a pragmatic decision as to how to proceed. If you really wanted to escalate the issue, you could have asked them what ticket you (purportedly) had to buy, paid for that, and then contacted Avanti to claim this back. Otherwise, making a Delay Repay claim for the delay in your arrival at Wolverton/Milton Keynes is the other option.

Both may well require escalating the matter within Avanti to get the money you're owed.

 

[Snow1964]

Are there any Avanti trains out of Euston that are not routed via Watford Junction, simple answer none, 100% are, so why would any at Euston think travelling through Watford is not valid.

Since when have you had to stop at the named via point (imagine bring on a connecting train that is never going to the via point, as it only covers part of the journey).

Seems to me the Euston gateline staff are in an illogical fantasy world, and need kicking up the backside from their managers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The change to ‘via Watford Junction’ rather than Any Permitted is supposed to make things simpler for everyone to understand.

Actually these ones aren't for that reason, the non-Travelcard fares are Any Permitted, not that there is any route permitted other than via Watford anyway so putting that on there would have no effect that wasn't clarificatory.

The reason this was done was because of how routes are worked out for Travelcards. With a Travelcard, you can pick any point inside the Zones and work out the Permitted Routes to that point, not just London Terminals, then once inside the Zones do what you like. The result of this was that you could pick that point as being say Elstree and Borehamwood, which would permit travel via Bedford. Quite a few people seemingly wised up to this, because at the time (probably still the case) the Travelcards from Bedford were considerably more expensive than those from Wolverton, MKC or Bletchley, and the planners did allow you to be issued the Travelcard with an itinerary via Bedford. Thus a Watford Junction route was added to prevent these tickets being used via Bedford and losing Thameslink a significant amount of money as a result.

By contrast the only Permitted Routes from Wolverton, MKC and Bletchley to London Terminals are via Watford Jn anyway, so this wasn't added to these (but wouldn't cause any harm if they did).

It’s disgraceful that Avanti can get something so simple so wrong.

Certainly agree!

 

[Grumpy Git]

Absolutely disgraceful attitude by the Euston mafia.

Good job their train managers are a different breed as I've never been turned-down a LNWR only Crewe to Liverpool ride on a Pendolino.

 

[alloverplace]

Thanks to everyone who replied to this.

I don't think I actually have a valid delay repay claim against Avanti - I ended my journey at Wolverton and the first valid connection to there was the 21:40 LNWR service, which I ended up catching anyway. In my complaint, I've asked Avanti to make sure their staff are properly briefed and to consider a goodwill gesture.

Incidentally, the reason I tried to catch the Avanti rather than wait for a direct train was that you can get much closer to home if there's unexpected disruption*. And that's exactly what happened on Sunday - the LNWR service immediately behind the Avanti failed at Tring. So, while on paper it made no difference, in reality I'd have got a bus or taxi home from MK Central and been home almost an hour earlier. I probably still have a delay repay claim against LNWR which I might get around to making at some point.

in any event the restriction will have been printed on the ticket as "Valid only via (changing trains or passing through) Watford Junction"

I knew I'd seen this wording somewhere! I was frantically trying to find it online while stood at the barrier. Inconveniently, my ticket seems to be in the older format, and just says (under Route) "VIA WATFORD JUNCTION".

The reason this was done was because of how routes are worked out for Travelcards. With a Travelcard, you can pick any point inside the Zones and work out the Permitted Routes to that point, not just London Terminals, then once inside the Zones do what you like. The result of this was that you could pick that point as being say Elstree and Borehamwood, which would permit travel via Bedford.

Interesting to know that's the reason - I might keep that in mind for future (non-MK) journey planning.

*Also I quite like Pendolinos and prefer to avoid spending an hour on a slow 350/2.

 

[mangyiscute]

I will say the only time I've had to argue with the Euston crew they did actually let me through very quickly - I was travelling in peak times with an off peak ticket that was valid due to an anomaly I'd rather not disclose, but after being shown the ticket restrictions i was let through with no difficulty.
As much as it is annoying, I'd recommend having like a journey planner showing a valid itinerary or something along those lines to prove to them that you are right next time.

 

[Kite159]

The Euston dragons gateline strikes again, sadly like Blackpool North it is a cultural thing which the railway can't be bothered trying to sort out, any other industry those sort of staff would have been given a P45 years ago.

Sadly, even if you did complain, all you will get is a standard fobbed off response at first which will either be incorrect or completely ignore the points raised, but that is Avanti customer service for you.

 

[MrJeeves]

MKC Travelcards which also have that route (which is to prevent you going via Bedford as it undercuts the fare from there).

I don't see any with "via Watford Junction" looking at brfares. There's "."/Any Permitted, Avanti and LNR only.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Immaterial to this conversation, anyway.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My ticket was a Super-off-peak Day Travelcard from Wolverton, route "via Watford Junction".

I don't see any with "via Watford Junction" looking at brfares. There's "."/Any Permitted, Avanti and LNR only.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Try this one...

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Immaterial to this conversation, anyway.

Not really. The "via Watford Junction" routing seems to be the nub of the problem at the ticket barrier.

 

[MrJeeves]

Try this one...

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

No argument that Wolverton has Via Watford Junction, but the comment I was replying to was that Travelcard from Milton Keynes Central also have that route, which I can't see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No argument that Wolverton has Via Watford Junction, but the comment I was replying to was that Travelcard from Milton Keynes Central also have that route, which I can't see.

I thought they did but it appears they don't (and thus they remain valid via Bedford for the reason mentioned above, if you happen to enjoy rail replacement bus services, though don't be surprised if you experience hassle if you do use this unless actually going to one of the inside-Zones Thameslink stations). Seems it's only the Wolverton and Bletchley ones. Odd, that, I thought it was all of them. I wonder if it was done and changed back perhaps?

That may explain why the Avanti gateline staff don't see many of them (very few will choose to change at MKC from an Avanti rather than just use the half hourly LNR fast) but there's still no excuse for being so ignorant of what a route means, it's really basic stuff, a geographic route on a ticket ALWAYS means passing through, it never requires a stop. Indeed, half the trains on which most people will travel to Bletchley or Wolverton don't stop at Watford Jn.