Derby Resignalling - 22 July - 7 October 2018

[Freightmaster]

I’m not sure there’ll be much essential stuff left in (or under) Derby PSB because the area’s been completely resignalled.

For some reason, the Derby resignalling project only covers the lines between Stenson/Spondon and (just south of) Duffield;
the section north of Duffield (including Ambergate Junction and Broadholme loops) will remain under the control of the existing
Duffield/Ambergate interlockings, just recontrolled to the EMCC - presumably to save money?




MARK

 

[takno]

For some reason, the Derby resignalling project only covers the lines between Stenson/Spondon and (just south of) Duffield;
the section north of Duffield (including Ambergate Junction and Broadholme loops) will remain under the control of the existing
Duffield/Ambergate interlockings, just recontrolled to the EMCC - presumably to save money?




MARK

I would guess that the logic for doing the work at all is that the station area needs to be completely ripped up and changed to reflect the new track layout. Doing the Burton workstation recontrol then is logical because it's a low cost way to get closer to the ROC ideal (albeit that if you want Burton signallers sharing a building with the appropriate controllers you probably want them in the WMSC). The cost of maintaining the building and the signallers trained in panel operation is possibly higher than the recontrol in any case.

The thing that makes less obvious sense is *not* recontrolling south of Bristol. I'm guessing that's got more to do with space at TVSC though.

 

[The_Engineer]

Currently trains in Derby are MAINLY using the following platforms:

1 - EMT to and from Crewe
2 - access for trains to the work area north of the station
3 - Cross Country from Birmingham to the North/Notts
4 - Cross Country to Birmingham from the North/Notts
5 - EMT locals to and from Nottingham and beyond
6 - EMT to and from London

 

[snowball]

Pres release with time-lapse video:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...n-services-resuming-at-derby-railway-station/

The latest phase of the £200million investment sees the return of all CrossCountry services, as well as East Midlands Trains services to and from Nottingham and Crewe. The video also shows 10,000 tonnes of material removed from the platforms and sees them reconstructed in a new, straighter formation to allow the new track to be laid.

A bus replacement service remains in operation between Derby and Matlock, as well as a temporary train timetable for journeys between Derby and Chesterfield and Derby and London. Services between Birmingham and the North East/ Scotland will have extended journey times and passenger are advised to check before they travel via derby2018.co.uk

 

[edwin_m]

I would guess that the logic for doing the work at all is that the station area needs to be completely ripped up and changed to reflect the new track layout. Doing the Burton workstation recontrol then is logical because it's a low cost way to get closer to the ROC ideal (albeit that if you want Burton signallers sharing a building with the appropriate controllers you probably want them in the WMSC). The cost of maintaining the building and the signallers trained in panel operation is possibly higher than the recontrol in any case.

That all sounds true for Derby. Also re-control isn't generally worthwhile for interlockings local to the panel, as they are likely to be hardwired and every wire would need diverting into some sort of interface to the new control equipment. All the equipment in a remote interlocking is already fed into a time division multiplex, which sends the controls and indications over a small number of wires to/from the panel, so in principle you just replace the office end of the TDM with an interface that replicates it. Obviously being signalling it's a lot more complicated than that in practice...

 

[43055]

Weren't Gloucester and Bristol PSBs at about the same time?

With Birmingham New Street being a couple of years before, MAS was then from near Chesterfield (Hasland?) to somewhere west of Bristol; Derby was by Westinghouse, Saltley and Trent by AEI Railway Signals, and Gloucester by the Western Region itself using bits mainly from Reading Signal Works and ML Engineering, as I recall. Moreover, the interior of the Derby PSB was often used by Westinghouse in adverts.

Derby PSB was the only PSB to have the Westinghouse Mk3a interlocking as well which could suggest the reasons for the adverts.

All the locations in the Derby interlocking have been replaced in the remodelling. Only the locations out at the fringes such as Duffield remain. I don't know why the cases have not been replaced in some locations but it could be to do with the fact that very little being changed north of Duffield for example. In regards to the PSB, very little is left and the will more than likely be turned off as the relay room has been taken out of use so from the signaling side everything is over at the EMCC now.

 

[The_Engineer]

North end photo from 5 day ago, from Rob Ayre via LinkedIn. More point-work to go in on the left plus the Chaddesden sidings direct line.

 

[Belperpete]

When I passed through Derby on Wednesday, there were single wagons parked as temporary stops at the north ends of platforms 3 & 4, whereas the north ends of platforms 1& 2 and 5 & 6 only had stop boards. As trains from the south are terminating in all platforms, why did only 3 & 4 get these wagons?
With these wagons at the ends of the platforms, does this mean that all the x-country services using platforms 3 & 4 are being signalled-in on call-ons? Or were the axle-counters reset to show the platform lines as clear? In which case, what will happen when the wagons are removed - will the axle-counter think there is a negative number of axles in the section?!

Interesting to see the fairly high-speed scissors in the photo of the south-end of platforms 3 & 4, with what looks a fairly hefty chunk of manganese where the three directions of travel intersect. At one time, such non-standard layouts were decidedly out of favour. I suppose that with axle-counter train detection and there no longer being the need to cut-in insulated joints all over the place for track-circuits, this has removed one weakness.

 

[Belperpete]

For some reason, the Derby resignalling project only covers the lines between Stenson/Spondon and (just south of) Duffield;
the section north of Duffield (including Ambergate Junction and Broadholme loops) will remain under the control of the existing
Duffield/Ambergate interlockings, just recontrolled to the EMCC - presumably to save money?

The connection to the Wirksworth branch was plain-lined some time ago. I understand that the Belper goods yard connection is (has already?) been plain-lined as part of these works. Presumably this means Duffield interlocking is an interlocking in name only.
New cabling has been laid as far north at least as far as Belper goods yard. This might just be telecoms, perhaps for signal post telephones.

 

[Freightmaster]

New cabling has been laid as far north at least as far as Belper goods yard. This might just be telecoms, perhaps for signal post telephones.

I understand that is for a new HABD (Hot Axle Box Detector) at Belper goods yard,
replacing the previous one just south of Duffield.



MARK

 

[edwin_m]

When I passed through Derby on Wednesday, there were single wagons parked as temporary stops at the north ends of platforms 3 & 4, whereas the north ends of platforms 1& 2 and 5 & 6 only had stop boards. As trains from the south are terminating in all platforms, why did only 3 & 4 get these wagons?
With these wagons at the ends of the platforms, does this mean that all the x-country services using platforms 3 & 4 are being signalled-in on call-ons? Or were the axle-counters reset to show the platform lines as clear? In which case, what will happen when the wagons are removed - will the axle-counter think there is a negative number of axles in the section?!

Interesting to see the fairly high-speed scissors in the photo of the south-end of platforms 3 & 4, with what looks a fairly hefty chunk of manganese where the three directions of travel intersect. At one time, such non-standard layouts were decidedly out of favour. I suppose that with axle-counter train detection and there no longer being the need to cut-in insulated joints all over the place for track-circuits, this has removed one weakness.

At a guess there is work going on at the north ends of 3 and 4 so they need to protect the workforce.

Most unlikely they would bodge the signalling to hide the fact that the northern half of the platform is blocked - it would have to be position lights. The platforms may have track circuits instead of axle counters, as they do at Nottingham, because an axle counter can get confused if a wheel stops directly above it.

 

[louis97]

When I passed through Derby on Wednesday, there were single wagons parked as temporary stops at the north ends of platforms 3 & 4, whereas the north ends of platforms 1& 2 and 5 & 6 only had stop boards. As trains from the south are terminating in all platforms, why did only 3 & 4 get these wagons?
With these wagons at the ends of the platforms, does this mean that all the x-country services using platforms 3 & 4 are being signalled-in on call-ons? Or were the axle-counters reset to show the platform lines as clear? In which case, what will happen when the wagons are removed - will the axle-counter think there is a negative number of axles in the section?!

Interesting to see the fairly high-speed scissors in the photo of the south-end of platforms 3 & 4, with what looks a fairly hefty chunk of manganese where the three directions of travel intersect. At one time, such non-standard layouts were decidedly out of favour. I suppose that with axle-counter train detection and there no longer being the need to cut-in insulated joints all over the place for track-circuits, this has removed one weakness.

The wagons are at the end of 5 and 6, and you do come in on a call on aspect. 3 and 4 have sleepers across the rails and stop boards. 1 and 2 just have stop boards.

 

[Mugby]

I noticed when travelling to Chesterfield yesterday, the stop boards on the Derby lines were at Hasland.

Does the possession extend from Derby all that way?

 

[43055]

I noticed when travelling to Chesterfield yesterday, the stop boards on the Derby lines were at Hasland.

Does the possession extend from Derby all that way?

Quite possibly but that does seem a long way from where the work really ends at around Ambergate.

Having travelled out of Derby last week towards Birmingham and back I could really notice the speed difference out of the platforms in which this might of helped a bit with my return journey taking just 30 minutes between Birmingham and Derby which I think this is the fastest this journey has been done. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C77129/2018/09/07/advanced

 

[edwin_m]

There will need to be some line closure while the line is re-controlled even if the trackside signalling is unchanged. The Derby powerbox controlled nearly as far as the south end of Clay Cross tunnel so it isn't possible to run trains normally on any of that until the signalling is commissioned.

Also if engineering trains need to access from this end then they may well need to go in and out "wrong line" so normal working has to be suspended from the limit of actual work up to the nearest junction where trains can be swapped onto the correct tracks. I'd guess the limits would be at least a train length away from the junction and protecting signals, so the signaller can park a works train out of the way until the site people can take it.

 

[mailbyrail]

Just visited Matlock station which is hive of activity. The platform canopies have been stripped back ready for reglazing, the platform was being pressure washed, Peak Rail services were terminating at Riverside.

 

[The_Engineer]

Anyone got any progress photographs of the north end of Derby station??

 

[Belperpete]

The platforms may have track circuits instead of axle counters, as they do at Nottingham, because an axle counter can get confused if a wheel stops directly above it.

Fairly certain I saw axle-counter heads being installed mid-platform, along with AWS magnets, before the blockade started.
Thinking about it, I suspect that the wagons were there not to protect either trains or the workforce, but to allow the signalling to set a call-on into the relevant platform when the overlap beyond the exit signal was not available, e.g. due to work taking place in it, and so the main aspect route was not available.

 

[Belperpete]

There will need to be some line closure while the line is re-controlled even if the trackside signalling is unchanged. The Derby powerbox controlled nearly as far as the south end of Clay Cross tunnel so it isn't possible to run trains normally on any of that until the signalling is commissioned

Agreed, but it shouldn't take more than a day or two to commission such re-controls. Likewise, if the limits were being set to allow engineering trains bang-road access over a crossover, then it would only need to go as far as Ambergate junction. I suspect that they are taking advantage of the no-train period to do other works along the line at the same time, as at Matlock.

 

[edwin_m]

Thinking about it, I suspect that the wagons were there not to protect either trains or the workforce, but to allow the signalling to set a call-on into the relevant platform when the overlap beyond the exit signal was not available, e.g. due to work taking place in it, and so the main aspect route was not available.

If it's axle counters then it would be easy enough to show the section occupied without going to the trouble of finding a wagon. Even if admitted on a call-on, a driver might continue to the far end of the platform if it looked clear - something like a possession stop board might be overlooked in a brightly-lit station and I'm not sure if trains would be signalled up to such a board unless they were expecting to go into the possession. A wagon provides a solid visible obstacle.

A precedent for using parked stock to protect the workforce (or to stop a train driving onto non-existent track) was last summer's Waterloo blockade when they parked a train across the throat. The 455 mis-routed when a point was incorrectly changed collided with it. When they did the canopies at Derby 10 years or so back they painted wasp stripes on the ends of some old Mk1-based coaches and parked them similarly when they needed to keep half a platform in service.

 

[LowLevel]

There are issues with how the axle counters behave at the north end of some of the platforms during the work I believe - consequently through the miracles of modern interlocking the trains are just using the calling on functionality for the time being. Platform 4 in particular comes to mind.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Visited Derby station at lunchtime today and recorded the following:

Note that 'Midland' has been removed from the running-in boards.

There do seem to be a number of differenes between the station as it is in its present state and as shown on the plans deposited with Derby City Council; there weren't any "cutaways" on platform 7 on the plans, the north end of platform 4/5 was more or less in line with the other ones, and the canopies at the south ends of all platforms were also in line. Is there still work to be done on these elements of the remodelling?

I also noticed that the prefix letters on the signal numbers vary (even on the south end gantry); can anyone explain, please?

It was interesting to see how fast the trains seemed to be moving over the junctions at the south/west ends of the station - even over the diamond between platforms 3 and 4

 

[edwin_m]

I also noticed that the prefix letters on the signal numbers vary (even on the south end gantry); can anyone explain, please?

The latest practice for the prefix letters is to name each section after the places either end. Is it something like DB (Derby Burton) on platform 1/2 and TD (Trent Derby) on 5/6? What is on 3/4, which can access either?

 

[grumpyoldman01]

The latest practice for the prefix letters is to name each section after the places either end. Is it something like DB (Derby Burton) on platform 1/2 and TD (Trent Derby) on 5/6? What is on 3/4, which can access either?

Signals at south end of platforms 1 and 2 are DW5301/5302, 3 and 4 are TD5053/5054, and 5 and 6 are TD5055/5056; north end of platforms 1 and 2 are DC5061/5062 respectively. I can't identify any other signal numbers from photos taken today.

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting to see the fairly high-speed scissors in the photo of the south-end of platforms 3 & 4, with what looks a fairly hefty chunk of manganese where the three directions of travel intersect. At one time, such non-standard layouts were decidedly out of favour. I suppose that with axle-counter train detection and there no longer being the need to cut-in insulated joints all over the place for track-circuits, this has removed one weakness.

Looks like a standard scissors to me.

 

[43055]

The signal numbers can be found on the updated Open Train Times map. https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/derby
The prefix used are:
TD - Trent Derby
DW - Derby West
DC - Derby Chesterfield
EC - Etches Cadd (I think)

 

[IrishDave]

The signal numbers can be found on the updated Open Train Times map. https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/derby
The prefix used are:
TD - Trent Derby
DW - Derby West
DC - Derby Chesterfield
EC - Etches Cadd (I think)

DW is surely Derby-Wichnor Jn - especially since Wichnor Jn-Water Orton has the prefix WW.

EC could be Etches Park-Chaddesden?

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Note that 'Midland' has been removed from the running-in boards.

There do seem to be a number of differenes between the station as it is in its present state and as shown on the plans deposited with Derby City Council; there weren't any "cutaways" on platform 7 on the plans, the north end of platform 4/5 was more or less in line with the other ones, and the canopies at the south ends of all platforms were also in line. Is there still work to be done on these elements of the remodelling?

I also noticed that the prefix letters on the signal numbers vary (even on the south end gantry); can anyone explain, please?

It was interesting to see how fast the trains seemed to be moving over the junctions at the south/west ends of the station - even over the diamond between platforms 3 and 4

-I was never really sure why the "Midland" suffix was on the boards in the first place but good to see it's now consistent with the rest of the statin

-The cutouts/notches on P7 were added as the track radius at the platform ends is rather sharp (circa 250m) and there are turnouts at each end. Rather than increasing the rail to platform offset required due to the increased centre throw, a cut out was put in instead. There was no need to have the platforms any longer in length and the spacing between the platform signals limited the operational length of the platform anyway.

-The canopy is incomplete on the southern end of one of P4/5 but it was supposed be up to the first lighting column but I understand contractor had their access prematurely removed. The foundations are in the ground for the supports but not the designers are looking a temporary measure of supporting the PA/lighting until the contractor can come back and finish the work.

-The 25mph into the platforms 3-6 makes a notable difference. Looking forward to seeing the benefits of 40mph on P1 and P2.

 

[swt_passenger]

DW is surely Derby-Wichnor Jn - especially since Wichnor Jn-Water Orton has the prefix WW.

Yes, DW is also shown as Derby - Wichnor on the 3 Sept update to the railway codes website here:
http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/signal/signal_boxese.shtm

 

[civ-eng-jim]

Looks like a standard scissors to me.

Yep - CV10