Derby to Stoke-on-Trent Line

[Trainfan344]

Hello, following a Discussion I had yesterday, is it possible to increase the frequency of the Derby to Stoke Line through Uttoxeter?

 

[dysonsphere]

Don't see why not 1 TPH but problem will probably be paths at Stoke and Derby and Stoke to Crewe. I suppose if they opened a south facing bay at Stoke could increase trains but dont reallly see the point. Don't forget its really Derby to Crewe.

 

[edwin_m]

Lack of rolling stock is another problem - some of the diagrams are still single 153s. If they get some more DMUs after the NW electrifications then they'll probably make everything 2-car before thinking about increasing the frequency. Extending it back to Nottingham would also be good, looking at the number of people who make connections at Derby, but this probably needs the remodelling to increase capacity at Derby station.

 

[Trainfan344]

The reason behind the increase in frequency is the location of a big theme park which has direct bus services to Uttoxeter station.

 

[Searle]

granted, but it is a terrible bus link

 

[thenorthern]

There is easily more space for capacity on the line but one thing to remember is the line is controlled by 6 (I think) signal boxes which means its only open from 6am-10pm during the week.

 

[The Planner]

Absolute block so you are constrained by running times more than anything, box opening hours are irrelevant as if someone stumped up the cash then they would open.

 

[Trainfan344]

granted, but it is a terrible bus link

Indeed, but the roads to Alton Towers are terrible.

 

[thenorthern]

Indeed, but the roads to Alton Towers are terrible.

Indeed they are, all of the way from Uttoxeter there is no dual carriageways and part of the way it is single track roads to Alton Towers.

Had the line not closed in 1965 it would have been very useful now.

 

[G0ORC]

Hello, following a Discussion I had yesterday, is it possible to increase the frequency of the Derby to Stoke Line through Uttoxeter?

Possible? - no problem between Derby & Stoke, line only sees one passenger train per hour with very occasional freight and L/E movements. Line capacity, even allowing for long AB sections between Egginton Jcn. and Foley Crossing, would be probably be about 4 passenger tph between Derby and Stoke . I don't know what paths there are west of Stoke but the single line section between Alsager and Crewe might be problematical with LM's Crewe - Euston electrics to consider.

Likely? - less chance than me becoming Miss World. I don't know about the Stoke end, but there is a regular Summer only bus service to Alton Towers from Derby which runs far from capacity (except Saturday/Sunday). The demand simply isn't there, the service is heavily subsidised and, apart from one service in the morning and one in the afternoon, the usage doesn't even challenge the capacity of a 153.

I know usually greater frequency produces higher usage (no better example than Derby - Matlock which went from a historical two-hourly frequency to one tph a number of years ago) but I just can't see the same success story on the Stoke line, even if more rolling stock could be produced out of thin air.

 

[The Planner]

Uttoxeter to Caverswall/Blythe Bridge is the restraining factor in it, 11 mile section or thereabouts. 4tph really would be the limit with the linespeeds.

 

[Tomnick]

Uttoxeter to Caverswall/Blythe Bridge is the restraining factor in it, 11 mile section or thereabouts. 4tph really would be the limit with the linespeeds.

There's an IB in each direction between Uttoxeter and Caverswall, breaking that long section.

 

[The Planner]

Whereabouts? we certainly don't take any notice of it. Uttoxeter box and Caverswall is what we use as the section.

 

[Tomnick]

Between 11mp and 12mp in both directions, roughly at the midway point. Not sure where Caverswall tail lamps, but I'd imagine it'd be useful on the Down whilst one's calling at Blythe Bridge or (less likely nowadays) going into the loop.

 

[thenorthern]

The Uttoxeter MP (Andrew Griffiths) was trying to get the line electrified recently, while it would be nice I doubt its going to happen soon.

I have heard the talk of extending the trains to Nottingham and Skegness again but I doubt its going to happen in the short term.

 

[OuterDistant]

The reason behind the increase in frequency is the location of a big theme park which has direct bus services to Uttoxeter station.

Can't let this thread go without mentioning the 1985 Intercity Charter Unit run to Cheadle (closed 1963), with a view to starting a service to Alton Towers!

 

[Mugby]

I always consider it to be a better way of getting from Derby to Manchester and it would be from Nottingham too, if it were extended back there. Certainly cheaper by re-booking at Stoke but Nottm. passengers would be reluctant to change when they have the Sheffield route and EMT wouldn't want to see usage abstracted from their own service.

I don't think the boxes will ever be opened longer just for a couple of extra trains, a pity because there really ought to be a service before 1400 on Sundays.

With regard to capacity at Derby, I always think the best thing for the Crewe service would be to create it's own bay at the south end of platform 1, where the dock already exists.

 

[Whistler40145]

What's the main reason for Sunday services starting so late?

 

[thenorthern]

What's the main reason for Sunday services starting so late?

They only work 1 shift I think.

 

[G0ORC]

What's the main reason for Sunday services starting so late?

I would guess that its so as the service can be accomplished within one shift for the signalmen (oops.. signallers).

 

[thenorthern]

I have heard occasional talk of a Nottingham-Stoke-Manchester service using the line but I think that its unlikely to ever happen.

 

[merlodlliw]

Possible? - no problem between Derby & Stoke, line I don't know what paths there are west of Stoke but the single line section between Alsager and Crewe might be problematical with LM's Crewe - Euston electrics to consider.

The single line section you mention between Alsager & Crewe,how long is it?I am aware single line sections limit paths,here in Wrexham we have a nine mile single track to Chester limited to three paths an hour.

In the sixties I recall the "Dragon Rapide" Derby to Llandudno and return Mon/Sat
ex Rhyl 1420 to Derby, six coach heritage DMU, this was one of the first DMUs I recall in North Wales.

 

[thenorthern]

The single line section you mention between Alsager & Crewe,how long is it?I am aware single line sections limit paths,here in Wrexham we have a nine mile single track to Chester limited to three paths an hour.

In the sixties I recall the "Dragon Rapide" Derby to Llandudno and return Mon/Sat
ex Rhyl 1420 to Derby, six coach heritage DMU, this was one of the first DMUs I recall in North Wales.

Its 3 miles and it was singled in 1985 I think.

Until about 10 years ago there was the Manchester Airport extensions which I never understood why the trains operated by Central Trains didn't call at Wilmslow but the Virgin Trains did. For a while also in 2001 I think there was an experiment to extend some of the Sunday services to Liverpool Lime Street but I may be thinking of something else.

 

[G0ORC]

The single line section you mention between Alsager & Crewe,how long is it?I am aware single line sections limit paths,here in Wrexham we have a nine mile single track to Chester limited to three paths an hour.

In the sixties I recall the "Dragon Rapide" Derby to Llandudno and return Mon/Sat
ex Rhyl 1420 to Derby, six coach heritage DMU, this was one of the first DMUs I recall in North Wales.

About three and a half miles or so

The service you refer to (I was a DMU controller at Nottingham in those days) was an extension of the 0735 Nottingham Crewe to Llandudno on early Summer Saturdays and formed by (usually) 2x Class 120. Later in the summer season, it was formed by LHS with (diagrammed) 2x25.

I can't recollect it ever running in midweek though but maybe I'm not going back far enough.

I think its return was something like 1435 Llandudno - Nottingham which used to terminate at Derby if it was running more than 30 late (which was often!)

 

[Wyvern]

With regard to capacity at Derby, I always think the best thing for the Crewe service would be to create it's own bay at the south end of platform 1, where the dock already exists.

THere is, of course, already a bay at the south end of Platform 1. There is also PLatform 5 which the Crewe train uses occasionally.

Perhaps the preference is to have the train stand near the centre of the station.

Another point is that there are plans in the air to upgrade the Crewe line as part of a W10 freight route via Sheet Stores and the Peterborough line.

Network Specification 2012 East Midlands

 

[Mugby]

THere is, of course, already a bay at the south end of Platform 1. There is also PLatform 5 which the Crewe train uses occasionally.

Network Specification 2012 East Midlands

Actually that's what I meant. The bay (or dock) at the south end of pl.1 could easily become a terminating platform for the Crewe service, in and out without having to cross the whole junction as it does to access pl.5.

 

[dggar]

In the sixties I recall the "Dragon Rapide" Derby to Llandudno and return Mon/Sat
ex Rhyl 1420 to Derby, six coach heritage DMU, this was one of the first DMUs I recall in North Wales.

There was also the "Welsh Dragon" which shuttled between Rhyl and Llandudno the service down the Conwy valley which were opperated by DMUs in late fifties

 

[Whistler40145]

If the line was open earlier on Sundays, it would be an ideal diversion route for Liverpool to Norwich services if the Hope Valley was blocked for engineering works.

 

[Tomnick]

Actually that's what I meant. The bay (or dock) at the south end of pl.1 could easily become a terminating platform for the Crewe service, in and out without having to cross the whole junction as it does to access pl.5.

Possibly an 'easy' option if done as part of the future remodelling, but the only access currently is via the through siding - it'd require that siding and connections upgrading and resignalling to passenger standards, and also resignalling at the Peartree end (where the connection across to the Down appears to be well within the overlap of the protecting signal on the Up anyway, so would prove rather restrictive).

 

[6Gman]

The Uttoxeter MP (Andrew Griffiths) was trying to get the line electrified recently, while it would be nice I doubt its going to happen soon.

Well unless he pops out one night with some mates and does it himself I don't see it happening.