Derbyshire CC propose axing all scheduled subsided bus services

[pemma]

Tell us what you think about our proposals for subsidised local buses and community transport services.

By 2020 the funding we get from Government will be more than a third lower than in 2010.

We're protecting frontline services and vulnerable people as much as we can, supporting businesses and the voluntary sector and protecting local jobs.

We've done everything we can to keep services running while our budgets are cut back year-on-year. We've sold off land and buildings, reduced back office costs and significantly cut the number of senior managers.

But the size of the cuts mean we have no choice about scaling back most of the services we provide - particularly when, by law, we do not have to provide them.

It'll mean many of the services we provide will change and some will stop altogether. Legally we don't have to provide subsidised local buses or community transport Dial-a-Bus shopping buses.

Like every council, we've got difficult decisions to make about the cuts but we want local people to work alongside us to make these hard choices.

What else do you need to know?

Most bus services in Derbyshire are run commercially without any financial support from us, but we do pay for buses where there are gaps in service. These are subsidised bus services.

So tell us now what you think about our future plans for buses that we pay for and Dial-a-Bus shopping buses.

There are four proposals:

• To withdraw all funding for buses paid for by the council - subsidised buses - from October 2017
• To withdraw all funding for community transport Dial-a-Bus (DAB) 'shopping buses' from October 2017
• To provide a new, limited, Demand Responsive Transport (DRT) service in the place of subsidised and DAB shopping buses
• To provide a new, limited, Door-to-Door Plus service for people who currently use DAB shopping buses and who would be unable to use the proposed DRT service.

To see the Cabinet reports about these proposals go to www.derbyshire.gov.uk/subsidisedbuses (opens in a new window)

http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/counci...munity_transport_-_local_bus_consultation.asp

It doesn't sound like a good situation for Derbyshire and if they follow through with this I imagine other councils will be trying the same thing.

 

[cool110]

It doesn't sound like a good situation for Derbyshire and if they follow through with this I imagine other councils will be trying the same thing.

It looks like the other way around to me, they're copying what Lancashire have already done but without the consultation being potentially illegal.

 

[Busaholic]

In the end, they'll probably do what a lot of other councils have done and cut back the subsidised services without withdrawing them completely - evening, early morning and Sunday services will probably suffer most, especially the former. Some of these services will probably be taken on commercially by their existing operators, at least initially. Dial-a-Bus is less certain, but, from what I've read, Demand Responsive services are costly to operate and are often scaled back or even withdrawn within a short period.

 

[radamfi]

Dial-a-Bus is less certain, but, from what I've read, Demand Responsive services are costly to operate and are often scaled back or even withdrawn within a short period.

I've also read over the years about the expense of demand responsive services, so how can we explain the expansion of such services in Greater Manchester? They seem to think it is cheaper than subsidised services and when subsidised services have been withdrawn, in some cases they have been directly transferred to demand responsive.

You can see from the map here that they cover most areas:

http://www.tfgm.com/buses/local_link/Pages/index.html

From what I can see they are more use than regular bus services as they are door to door and in some cases run early morning and late evening.

 

[Greybeard33]

I've also read over the years about the expense of demand responsive services, so how can we explain the expansion of such services in Greater Manchester? They seem to think it is cheaper than subsidised services and when subsidised services have been withdrawn, in some cases they have been directly transferred to demand responsive.

You can see from the map here that they cover most areas:

http://www.tfgm.com/buses/local_link/Pages/index.html

From what I can see they are more use than regular bus services as they are door to door and in some cases run early morning and late evening.

The TfGMC report Forthcoming Changes to the Bus Network, dated 15 Jan 2016, gave the 2015/16 budgeted cost of DRT & Local Link as £2.3m, versus £17.9m for General Bus Services.

Amongst the cost saving measures, the report proposed the withdrawal of the Little Lever and South Radcliffe Local Link and a reduction in the hours of the Salford Local Link.

 

[Busaholic]

I've also read over the years about the expense of demand responsive services, so how can we explain the expansion of such services in Greater Manchester? They seem to think it is cheaper than subsidised services and when subsidised services have been withdrawn, in some cases they have been directly transferred to demand responsive.

You can see from the map here that they cover most areas:

http://www.tfgm.com/buses/local_link/Pages/index.html

From what I can see they are more use than regular bus services as they are door to door and in some cases run early morning and late evening.

To adapt a well-known phrase 'where there's a will, and the resources to back it up, there's a way'.
Re your last paragraph - I agree only in the sense that a taxi may be more of use to an individual passenger than a bus, going, as you say, from door to door at any time of the day, and very nice if you can get it paid for, or at least heavily subsidised, by a local authority. The vast majority of passengers, though, will never be able to do this and will be satisfied with a scheduled bus service passing somewhere not too far from their home, workplace, shopping area or whatever and are happy to share their journeys with others in the same position. If it takes a subsidy from the LA to achieve this it will imo be money better spent than on expanded Demand Responsive services.

 

[radamfi]

To adapt a well-known phrase 'where there's a will, and the resources to back it up, there's a way'.
Re your last paragraph - I agree only in the sense that a taxi may be more of use to an individual passenger than a bus, going, as you say, from door to door at any time of the day, and very nice if you can get it paid for, or at least heavily subsidised, by a local authority. The vast majority of passengers, though, will never be able to do this and will be satisfied with a scheduled bus service passing somewhere not too far from their home, workplace, shopping area or whatever and are happy to share their journeys with others in the same position. If it takes a subsidy from the LA to achieve this it will imo be money better spent than on expanded Demand Responsive services.

It is not quite a taxi service as you may be sharing your journey with other people.

The point is, it appears that in Greater Manchester you get a better passenger experience whilst saving taxpayers' money at the same time. Other areas seem to have come to the opposite conclusion.

 

[Busaholic]

The point is, it appears that in Greater Manchester you get a better passenger experience whilst saving taxpayers' money at the same time. Other areas seem to have come to the opposite conclusion.

That's politicians for you!

 

[KendalKing]

It looks like the other way around to me, they're copying what Lancashire have already done but without the consultation being potentially illegal.

Don't forget that other council's, such as Cumbria and North Yorkshire, which have already cut subsidizes for bus services.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Don't forget that other council's, such as Cumbria and North Yorkshire, which have already cut subsidizes for bus services.

Add to that list, Somerset and Dorset. Those and NY/Cumbria were the earlier cutters whilst Southend, Darlington and Hartlepool have axed everything.

However, and as I was saying this time last year, the level of cuts in the pipeline mean that there will be massive cuts in counties that are historically pro-public transport and have protected their networks thus far. So what you're seeing now are places like Derbyshire and Wiltshire now looking make large cuts to non-statutory services like buses.

 

[ste898]

This government really are totally stupid

Encourage people out of their cars onto public transport but erm wait there soon wont be any public transport mr osbourne

 

[Harpers Tate]

Encourage people out of their cars onto public transport...

I don't believe ANY government (of any "colour") has been truly serious about this, for as long as I have been paying any attention.

 

[richw]

Down here in Cornwall, money has been saved on low usage subsidised routes by taking lower cost options, operators costing using 15 seater minibuses etc instead of full sized buses.
Summercourt Travel (Travel Cornwall) and OTS are the main 2 operators after First in West Cornwall and they seem to have the rural routes wrapped up with Mercedes Sprinter minibuses ( https://flic.kr/p/CwEntJ )which are cheaper to run and purchase, thus providing a lower cost option.

 

[PeterC]

they seem to have the rural routes wrapped up with Mercedes Sprinter minibuses

We could do with a few of those round here. One of our local operators fielded one when the usual clapped out vehicle on the route failed twice in the same day. It was the first comfortable journey that I have had on one of our local buses.

The politicians, local and national, might appreciate the value of rural services if they used a few. When catching the market day bus back to the village where I live I found a travelling social club. Everybody knew each other by name, including the driver and after a couple of trips I found that I knew more people in the village than in the previous 20 years of relying on the car.

 

[KendalKing]

I don't believe ANY government (of any "colour") .

You and me both

This government really are totally stupid

Encourage people out of their cars onto public transport but erm wait there soon wont be any public transport mr osbourne

For years, we have had various Governments (both Conservative & Labour), telling us to use public transport, but have done very little (if anything) to make public transport an option.

 

[richw]

The politicians, local and national, might appreciate the value of rural services if they used a few. When catching the market day bus back to the village where I live I found a travelling social club. Everybody knew each other by name, including the driver and after a couple of trips I found that I knew more people in the village than in the previous 20 years of relying on the car.

A senior officer at Cornwall council is a non-driver and very vocal user of rural bus services, resulting in what I see to be a very good rural bus service and a solution being found to keep as much rural network as possible, one of those solutions being minibus usage as I mentioned above. I think the result is the council appreciating the services we have. The council have what I perceive to be an excellent relationship with the bus operators looking in.

(I can't be sure but for some reason have it in my head the car hating, bus loving officer is the Cornwall council transport portfolio officer)

Locally hear a lot of people moaning about what they perceive to be poor rural service, however when comparing with other parts of the country I would say we have an excellent rural service from my experience travelling round the country.

 

[SCH117X]

Don't forget that other council's, such as Cumbria and North Yorkshire, which have already cut subsidizes for bus services.

NYorks havn't cut all. What is annoying is that they are having to fund a previously commercially operated service, the Harrogate-Follifoot-Wetherby service, because of competition by Connexions having forced Transdev to re route along the main road advoiding Follifoot. So much for competition improving services!

 

[talltim]

One of the byproducts of cutting subsidised services is that depots become less economical to run, making the commercial services less profitable and possibly jeopardising them too. I have a vague recollection of that happening (in Wales) and the operator pulled out of an area completely

 

[richw]

One of the byproducts of cutting subsidised services is that depots become less economical to run, making the commercial services less profitable and possibly jeopardising them too. I have a vague recollection of that happening (in Wales) and the operator pulled out of an area completely

Veolia did what you describe somewhere after losing some subsidised contracts to either First or stagecoach about 5-6 years ago, and then proceeded to pull all of their commercial operations as well, can't remember where but could well of been Wales.

 

[Tetchytyke]

NYorks havn't cut all. What is annoying is that they are having to fund a previously commercially operated service, the Harrogate-Follifoot-Wetherby service, because of competition by Connexions having forced Transdev to re route along the main road advoiding Follifoot. So much for competition improving services!

North Yorkshire have cut back loads, buses up beyond Aysgarth and Keld are now DRT minibuses, the supported routes run by Procters are down to one or two return trips per day, Northallerton (the county town, no less) basically has nowt these days.

But yes, blah blah Evil Transdev and Evil Connexions :roll:

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Veolia did what you describe somewhere after losing some subsidised contracts to either First or stagecoach about 5-6 years ago, and then proceeded to pull all of their commercial operations as well, can't remember where but could well of been Wales.

Veolia actually won a load of tenders off the back of either buying local firms or setting up new operations. However, the issue was the reverse. They decided that they'd lost enough money (having lost NX work out of Cardiff as well as lots of competition in the valleys) and then began to close down. Unfortunately, they were held to their contract by Powys and so couldn't close it all down as they'd have liked!

However, Stagecoach DID have that problem in that funding was cut for a number of supported services in the eastern valleys and into Monmouthshire. This led to the cutting of a number of commercial services including the final vacation of Chepstow services and the downgrading of Brynmawr from a full depot to an outstation.
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North Yorkshire have cut back loads, buses up beyond Aysgarth and Keld are now DRT minibuses, the supported routes run by Procters are down to one or two return trips per day, Northallerton (the county town, no less) basically has nowt these days.

But yes, blah blah Evil Transdev and Evil Connexions :roll:

Indeed, the North Yorkshire cuts have been extensive and deep.

My mother still lives in the county and her service was a local route, half hourly through the day, a few early morning runs, hourly evening and Sundays. Firstly, the evening and Sunday runs went. Then the early mornings and the daytime service becoming hourly. Now, it's 4 journeys off peak Mon to Sat...

It's been brutal and the cuts keep on coming.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We could do with a few of those round here. One of our local operators fielded one when the usual clapped out vehicle on the route failed twice in the same day. It was the first comfortable journey that I have had on one of our local buses.

Problem with them is that they may not be wheelchair accessible unless they have a lift and removable seats, and even then it would require pre-booking for said wheelchair to be accommodated by removing the seats.

The reason for the minibuses is, guess what, that they are exempted from the requirement for no step entrance buses from whatever-the-date-was.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For years, we have had various Governments (both Conservative & Labour), telling us to use public transport, but have done very little (if anything) to make public transport an option.

If you're talking a rural route with one man and his dog on board, it is most probably less polluting for him to drive and there probably isn't any congestion to be bothered about either. And for the few who live in such isolated places but cannot drive, it is probably cheaper just to give them free taxis as required. There is a need to be realistic.

As regards DRT there are a few types of it. Dedicated DRT is expensive, but if you just contract a taxi firm who handle all the booking and just bill the difference between the taxi fare and the fares charged to the Council each time it is used, it might feasibly cost next to nothing, because unlike a service bus, if nobody uses it it costs nowt. That's the whole basis of the Anruf-Sammel-Taxi (telephone-call shared taxi) services that have operated in Germany for years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
FWIW, if North Yorks are chopping the Wensleydale route, might we see more use of the Wensleydale Railway by regular passengers on the days it runs? Might do them some good. Though at the moment they aren't getting to Northallerton due to bridge problems, so a bus would still be needed from Leeming Bar.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Noting the mention of Derbyshire in the thread title, are there any subsidised services running from Ashbourne bus station that will be affected?

 

[ag51ruk]

Noting the mention of Derbyshire in the thread title, are there any subsidised services running from Ashbourne bus station that will be affected?

I think that every scheduled service in Ashbourne is subsidised, except for daytime journeys on the Trent Barton Swift to Derby (some are part sponsored by Staffordshire as well). So unless operators decide to try commercial services, this is potentially devastating to scheduled services in that area.

 

[pemma]

I think that every scheduled service in Ashbourne is subsidised, except for daytime journeys on the Trent Barton Swift to Derby (some are part sponsored by Staffordshire as well). So unless operators decide to try commercial services, this is potentially devastating to scheduled services in that area.

High Peak Buses' previous attempts to run services without subsidies when previously they had one haven't exactly gone well. In one case they reduced an hourly service using 2 buses to a 90 minute frequency using 1 bus and did a 37% increase in fares overnight, the reduced service was very unreliable due to being unable to make up lost time and the service lost a lot of passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

High Peak Buses' previous attempts to run services without subsidies when previously they had one haven't exactly gone well. In one case they reduced an hourly service using 2 buses to a 90 minute frequency using 1 bus and did a 37% increase in fares overnight, the reduced service was very unreliable due to being unable to make up lost time and the service lost a lot of passengers.

They would actually have been better there doing a 2-hourly clockface service "N minutes past the even hour" - a lot more memorable and more reliable.

 

[tbone]

Noting the mention of Derbyshire in the thread title, are there any subsidised services running from Ashbourne bus station that will be affected?

If it were to happen the only services remaining would be the Swift in both directions and the 108 to Leek.

Swift is commercial to Derby and the trips to Leek and Uttoxeter are funded by Staffordshire Clunty Council.

 

[pemma]

They would actually have been better there doing a 2-hourly clockface service "N minutes past the even hour" - a lot more memorable and more reliable.

But then they probably would have lost more of the weekly ticket holders more quickly, even if they kept more ENCTS holders. For instance at one end the morning arrivals were something like 07:45 and then 09:15 with the evening departures being 16:45 and then 18:15. While that's a bit rubbish if you have to work 9-5, it's not too bad for 8:30-4:30 or for 09:30-6. However, if it was instead 07:30 and 09:30 arrivals in the morning and 16:45 and 18:45 departures in the evening it would have been worse and put more passengers off as soon as they saw the revised timetable.

The operator who took over the service after High Peak tried retaining the same peak frequency and reducing off-peak to 2 hourly and then when they started getting very busy services started running a second bus at selected times.

 

[KendalKing]

NYorks havn't cut all.

Sorry, But I disagree. As a former Transport Manager, who's company lost work due to cut backs by North Yorkshire CC.

FWIW, if North Yorks are chopping the Wensleydale route, might we see more use of the Wensleydale Railway by regular passengers on the days it runs? Might do them some good. Though at the moment they aren't getting to Northallerton due to bridge problems, so a bus would still be needed from Leeming Bar.

I would love to see the Railways, to pick-up the pieces, with all these cuts to Bus Services everywhere. After all, didn't the bus companies pick-up the pieces, when the railways were being closed-down everywhere, back in the late 60's?

 

[johnnychips]

I would love to see the Railways, to pick-up the pieces, with all these cuts to Bus Services everywhere. After all, didn't the bus companies pick-up the pieces, when the railways were being closed-down everywhere, back in the late 60's?

If a bus can't make money serving many stops and villages in Wensleydale I hardly think a clapped out DMU chugging at 25 mph not serving the middle of Northalleron and finishing in a field up a hill from Redmires will.