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Deregulation and the passenger experience

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Ken H

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Obviously there was a decrease in bus usage in the whole developed world as car ownership became increasingly commonplace.


View attachment 149143



shows that the decline in London and the English Metropolitan Counties had stopped by the early 80s. But the decline in the English Metropolitan Counties immediately resumed after deregulation whereas there were modest increases in London up to 2000 before the Livingstone boom.
Your graph does not go far enough back. Leeds was starting to struggle in the 50's
1. National agreements pushing up the cost of bus/tram crew
2. huge sprawling housing estates (Seacroft, Gipton, Moortown, Cookridge/Tinshill) so population density dropped so making public transport provision harder
3. Out of town employers. Elida Gibbs on Coal Road for example. - hard to service by buses.
4. Frequent changes of party in control of the council so transport policy kept changing
5. Some strikes. People who managed to get to work without the Leeds bus would keep using the alternative.


But Leeds City transport was expanding up until the West Yorks Passenger Transport Authority came in in 1974, taking over the municipals in Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford and Leeds. All the civic pride went and we saw the steady decline.
 
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WAB

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And on evening / Sunday services there was a post about these by @greenline712 who actually drove such services - basically the point was they were always very quiet with little use.
But by abandoning them, people have to fulfil one of the following criteria to use provincial bus services:
  • Have no ability to travel by car
  • Be willing to mix-and-match car and bus, even though using the car is generally much easier
  • Live in central locations and be willing to compromise on trips to certain areas or in the evenings/on Sunday
Group 1 are declining in number, and are mostly on passes. Group 2 is a difficult one to create as cars are just too tempting, and the progressive chopping of the remaining provincial bus network does little to encourage them. Group 3 is limited by the number of people living in central locations and who are willing to limit their travel. With the continuous chopping and rare growth so beloved of English bus companies, it doesn't leave much room for the provincial network to become anything but worse under private ownership.

So Ulsterbus is still in the decline pattern that provincial UK experienced through the 1970s. Meanwhile, Belfast is experiencing growth... Investment in Bus Rapid Transit and other priority measures?
Most of Northern Ireland is pretty thin bus territory, although is more well-provided for in many areas than can be found in equivalent areas of England - I'm not surprised that Ulsterbus, containing mostly rural areas, doesn't have great numbers. As you say, there has been considerable improvements in the infrastructure in Belfast, and the service frequencies/hours of operation look a damned sight better than in many provincial areas, both daytime and evenings.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Your graph does not go far enough back. Leeds was starting to struggle in the 50's
Those factors are not confined to Leeds. Increasing affluence meant more cars and that already saw services being cut.

As @nw1 alludes to (as well), the fact was that there were already massive pressures in the regulated world. Costs were being pushed up (esp in 1970s) whilst industrial relations were generally dire (par for the course in the 1970s). Passenger figures were already tanking given that service reliability was appalling, with staff shortages and challenges with vehicle serviceability (sound familiar?). Not surprisingly, the two largest bus operators (National Bus Co and Scottish Bus Group) were forced to wield the knife. In 1970/1, there were massive cuts in England as various NBC opcos closed depots and, in the case of Western National, vacated whole tracts of territory. The NBC and SBG also pursued Market Analysis Projects (MAP) between 1977 and 1982 that really were aimed at removing those routes that were simply burning money. In some cases, you had superannuated double deckers being retained whilst newer single deckers were being disposed of, but it did mean that capital investment and fleet renewal slowed.

Why was this if regulation was the answer? Well, it was that regulation just didn't react quickly to the wider societal changes. Increased affluence and car ownership was one thing, but television's increasing influence saw trips to the pictures (as they called them) reduced. This has a modern parallel as evening services in more recent times have been adversely impacted by fragmentation of the night-time economy. Shopping trips were reduced as refrigerators allowed people to buy once a week not every other day... now we can buy on-line. Bus services don't exist in a vacuum and they are reflection on wider societal needs and changes.

So what did deregulation bring us? Well it brought competition and allowed the privatisation of the NBC, SBG and the various PTE/municipal firms. That resulted in a massive drop in the cost of operations to the taxpayer, both in central government grants and local council support. That was arguably the main aim. As well as an erosion on staff terms and conditions, you have to understand that the regulated environment (and state ownership) had led to bus companies being massively bureaucratic, little understanding of commercial realities, appalling marketing, iffy service quality. Despite what was said, it was a financial imperative, not a consumer orientated move.

So what of innovation? Well, it's a bit like what the Romans did for us. I remember the 1970s... vinyl seated big buses on low headways. Minibuses were an innovation, penetrating housing estates and bringing in hail and ride. Lord knows, marketing was an innovation o_O Many firms still thought moquette was a luxury. High floors were not uncommon from the SBGs conservative approach (Y type Leopards on local bus services?), NBC firms buying LHs or Fords, or independents gaming the bus grant by getting new coaches that were employed on bus work for a proportion of the year. Off bus ticketing was uncommon outside PTE areas, and even exact fare in places like Carlisle! That changed massively with deregulation. Then you had the myriad of restrictive service restrictions about when and where you could pick up/set down passengers. The Explorer ticket in the North East couldn't be used for journeys wholly within Tyne and Wear, for instance. Once the massive upheaval began to settle down and investment plans made, you had firms actually getting better vehicles than in the past for the most part... A Dennis Dart with Plaxton body may not have the kudos of an ECW bodied RE but they were better. Go to bus rally (I don't but if you want to) and look at some poppy red National... then imagine it a bit faded, and cold, and a gruff driver ringing off tickets with an Almex machine... that was the reality behind much of the regulated era.

To my mind, and it's my opinion and nothing more, is that deregulation cannot be seem as a homogenized mass but in distinct phases

  • 1986-1991 - the upheaval and the wild west
  • 1992-1998 - consolidation and maturing
  • 1998-2010 - growing up and maturity
  • 2010-2020 - reversal of the gains (mainly governmental but also the First and Arriva mismanagement)
  • 2020- the post Covid world where the asteroid style hit means you can't be a dinosaur; you have to adapt to the new world and environment
We're in a new phase now, and it is generally interesting. However, simply painting some buses yellow and chanting some Brexit style "taking back control" is not enough. It doesn't deal with the fundamentals as to why buses are struggling and it's about congestion, it's about prioritising the private car, and it's about funding.
 

johncrossley

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Most of Northern Ireland is pretty thin bus territory, although is more well-provided for in many areas than can be found in equivalent areas of England - I'm not surprised that Ulsterbus, containing mostly rural areas, doesn't have great numbers. As you say, there has been considerable improvements in the infrastructure in Belfast, and the service frequencies/hours of operation look a damned sight better than in many provincial areas, both daytime and evenings.

Outside Belfast and suburbs (including Lisburn and Bangor), there is only one town bigger than 50,000 population (two if you consider Portadown to Lurgan as one town). So the rest of Northern Ireland is very rural and therefore not really of great use for comparison with English urban areas.
 
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JKP

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But by abandoning them, people have to fulfil one of the following criteria to use provincial bus services:
  • Have no ability to travel by car
  • Be willing to mix-and-match car and bus, even though using the car is generally much easier
  • Live in central locations and be willing to compromise on trips to certain areas or in the evenings/on Sunday
Group 1 are declining in number, and are mostly on passes. Group 2 is a difficult one to create as cars are just too tempting, and the progressive chopping of the remaining provincial bus network does little to encourage them. Group 3 is limited by the number of people living in central locations and who are willing to limit their travel. With the continuous chopping and rare growth so beloved of English bus companies, it doesn't leave much room for the provincial network to become anything but worse under private ownership.


Most of Northern Ireland is pretty thin bus territory, although is more well-provided for in many areas than can be found in equivalent areas of England - I'm not surprised that Ulsterbus, containing mostly rural areas, doesn't have great numbers. As you say, there has been considerable improvements in the infrastructure in Belfast, and the service frequencies/hours of operation look a damned sight better than in many provincial areas, both daytime and evenings.
I think that you are forgetting that many evening and Sunday services have to be subsidised by local authorities. Bus service provision is not statutory hence with Councils struggling to balance their books, such niceties cannot be financed, especially with costs in Education and Social Work provision.

I live in a small rural town where the last bus now arrives at 9pm and last departure is at 8.15pm. Before Covid, the last arrival was 10pm. Historically there were on Saturday nights late departures at 10.30pm, however with the closure of the local cinema and changing drinking habits, when the last late evening bus was withdrawn, there was just one regular passenger. A waste of money. Covid has further changed peoples habits with many clubs and societies folding. This depressed demand further.

Interestingly, early morning buses seem to continue much as before, no doubt due to demand from workers. Sunday buses also seem to carry reasonable numbers.
 
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DunsBus

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Nicholas Ridley's grand vision was to have competition - and lots of it. This was definitely true in the first five years of deregulation, where it was a case of survival of the fittest, but it soon became apparent that competition came at a great cost and it was therefore no surprise when truces were called and operators agreed to stick to their traditional areas.
 

TUC

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They still exist, but the availability and validity have been massively scaled back over the years. The price has massively ramped up too- a 3-zone Transfare is now a scandalous £5.60 (a Tyne and Wear Day Rover is only £6).

Other changes include that you can’t buy a bus to bus Transfare anymore.
How much were 3-zone transfares in 1986? Allowing for inflation, £5.60 today is the equivalent of £1.97 in 1986.
 

johncrossley

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How much were 3-zone transfares in 1986? Allowing for inflation, £5.60 today is the equivalent of £1.97 in 1986.

"As for the fares, in 1986 I have the fares from then and (what they would be today in brackets) using an online comparison just for a bit of fun.

Kids 5p (11p)
Stage B 14p (31p)
Stage C 20p (45p)
Stage D 26p (58p)
1 Zone 32p (71p)
2 Zone 37p (83p)
3 Zone 46p (£1)
4 Zone 58p (£1.29)
5 Zone 70p (£1.56)

70p was the maximum fare back then for any single journey or Transfare wholly within Tyne and Wear. Obviously wages etc will have gone up a lot since then too so the prices are not easy to compare with today's. Still nice seeing fares as low as 14p for a couple of stops...:D"
 

py_megapixel

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Reductions in service frequencies in recent years have related to with local authorities reducing their subsidy budgets, plus the big groups becoming complacent. Deterioration in quality has been down to a lack of competition in recent years, not because of it.
The problem is I can't think of any examples of routes where two operators are competing and where that is actually providing a good passenger experience. Usually it makes it worse. Two examples:
  • Oxford, routes 1, 3 and 5, Stagecoach and Go-Ahead. Firstly, both operators run route 3 and call it route 3, while 1 and 5 are the same route but with different numbers by operator. Why the inconsistency? Secondly I remember trying to get a cross-operator ticket issued to a smartcard there. Tried to buy it on a Stagecoach bus - "we can't issue that, go to the travelshop". Stagecoach doesn't have a travelshop so I went to the Go-Ahead one - "we can't issue that, ask Stagecoach". Ridiculous.

  • Sheffield, routes 52 and 120, Stagecoach and FirstGroup. Zero attempt made to coordinate the timetable, so there is a mixture of very short and very long gaps. Two or three buses following each other on the same route is a very common sight in Sheffield. Also there is no fare integration so everyone just buys singles as they board which makes the journey painfully slow. Seemingly nobody cares about the quality of service at all, which is not surprising given nobody has overall responsibility for it.
In theory there is competition, but it isn't achieving anything and is just making the service less usable and more confusing.

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Automated Announcements have their benefits but there are also huge downfalls for some other passengers. It's a huge cost for companies and over the years, it was deemed to be not worth the investment. This is becoming standard in the next few years though as it was announced by the DFT.
This thread isn't to discuss the merits of automated announcements or indeed any other technology on buses so I won't go in-depth about that, but the fact that companies have deemed it "not worth the investment" and thus not done it, despite its benefits and the fact that it is standard in other countries, is an excellent illustration of the problems with the current system.

In short, if you think London has any kind of accountability, you are very much mistaken and the 'comedy production' is very much in London, not the rest of the UK. Perhaps if politicians and councillors started acting in the best interests of buses and their passengers rather than constantly pushing a pro car or pro cyclist agenda, buses wouldn't be in a half as bad situation.
The only reason that people think London has an amazing bus service is generally because it looks all full of buses when you watch it on TV.
TfL is in the remit of the Mayor of London, an elected position, and is a public body which makes it subject to, among other things, Freedom of Information regulations. This is already vastly more accountability than FirstGroup or Stagecoach has, for example.

I don't think the service provided is amazing but I think it's usable. This is because every time I have tried to catch a bus in London, one has turned up within a sensible timeframe and not been an ancient rattling piece of rubbish. It has also had clear information on board so I know which stop to alight at and the fares have been reasonable. This is far more than I have come to expect from anywhere in the UK outside London.

You also seem to forget that at least outside of London, if things hit enough backlash, councils can step in and then fund the bus.
I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. Of course councils can subsidise bus services but this has nothing to do with holding the commerical operators to account for the standard of service they are providing.
 
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Mwanesh

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The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

In London, regulated bus services have largely remained popular.

Outside of London, usage of bus services has declined ever since de-regulation

They still exist, but the availability and validity have been massively scaled back over the years. The price has massively ramped up too- a 3-zone Transfare is now a scandalous £5.60 (a Tyne and Wear Day Rover is only £6).

Other changes include that you can’t buy a bus to bus Transfare anymore.
5.60 for a Day Rover ain't bad.
 

RT4038

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I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. Of course councils can subsidise bus services but this has nothing to do with holding the commerical operators to account for the standard of service they are providing.
There is no mechanism to hold commercial operators to account for the level or coverage of the commercial services they are operating, but I am not sure what account they could be called to as they rightly have no requirement or responsibility to provide anything they regard as uneconomic. Local councils can purchase any additional services as they wish. As far as minimum standards of rolling stock, features etc is concerned then it is up to Government to legislate such things if they are thought essential, but obviously affordability (to the companies and consequently to the fare payers [be that passengers or Government]) is going to be a key driver in this.

As far as the standard of service in regards to punctuality, reliability etc, I am not sure that there is much of a way of holding any operator, public or commercial to account in actual practice...... (nor was there in pre deregulation days either) . These things cost money, which comes either from the passenger or from the Government, and neither has much appetite to pay much more at present.
 

johncrossley

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As far as the standard of service in regards to punctuality, reliability etc, I am not sure that there is much of a way of holding any operator, public or commercial to account in actual practice...... (nor was there in pre deregulation days either) . These things cost money, which comes either from the passenger or from the Government, and neither has much appetite to pay much more at present.

Where you have competitive tendering, such as in London, good performing operators can be rewarded and poor performing operators can be sanctioned or removed. As can be seen on the graph on the previous page, that regime in London cost next to nothing in the late 90s.

1703710517313.png
 

JD2168

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The problem is I can't think of any examples of routes where two operators are competing and where that is actually providing a good passenger experience. Usually it makes it worse. Two examples:
  • Oxford, routes 1, 3 and 5, Stagecoach and Go-Ahead. Firstly, both operators run route 3 and call it route 3, while 1 and 5 are the same route but with different numbers by operator. Why the inconsistency? Secondly I remember trying to get a cross-operator ticket issued to a smartcard there. Tried to buy it on a Stagecoach bus - "we can't issue that, go to the travelshop". Stagecoach doesn't have a travelshop so I went to the Go-Ahead one - "we can't issue that, ask Stagecoach". Ridiculous.

  • Sheffield, routes 52 and 120, Stagecoach and FirstGroup. Zero attempt made to coordinate the timetable, so there is a mixture of very short and very long gaps. Two or three buses following each other on the same route is a very common sight in Sheffield. Also there is no fare integration so everyone just buys singles as they board which makes the journey painfully slow. Seemingly nobody cares about the quality of service at all, which is not surprising given nobody has overall responsibility for it.
In theory there is competition, but it isn't achieving anything and is just making the service less usable and more confusing.

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This thread isn't to discuss the merits of automated announcements or indeed any other technology on buses so I won't go in-depth about that, but the fact that companies have deemed it "not worth the investment" and thus not done it, despite its benefits and the fact that it is standard in other countries, is an excellent illustration of the problems with the current system.


TfL is in the remit of the Mayor of London, an elected position, and is a public body which makes it subject to, among other things, Freedom of Information regulations. This is already vastly more accountability than FirstGroup or Stagecoach has, for example.

I don't think the service provided is amazing but I think it's usable. This is because every time I have tried to catch a bus in London, one has turned up within a sensible timeframe and not been an ancient rattling piece of rubbish. It has also had clear information on board so I know which stop to alight at and the fares have been reasonable. This is far more than I have come to expect from anywhere in the UK outside London.


I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. Of course councils can subsidise bus services but this has nothing to do with holding the commerical operators to account for the standard of service they are providing.
The 52/120 routes you mention are repeated in a similar way on the 1/1a where they tend to follow at times. The only one that does not follow is the 7/8 where there is enough of a gap to save this from happening.

One thing that also is a bit awkward with the 120 is the changeover points. First use Flat Street & the Interchange whereas Stagecoach use Crystal Peaks using a pool car to transport drivers to & from the depot. Have one of these being late or taking a while then the other follows it & they chase each other for the passengers. Plus the First 120 seems to get held up more on the Fulwood section compared to Stagecoach on the Halfway section.

If anyone buys a weekly they usually buy a CityBus/CityWide unless it is a one operator only section & with the single fare being a maximum of £2 most probably find that cheaper than buying a day rider.
 

RT4038

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Where you have competitive tendering, such as in London, good performing operators can be rewarded and poor performing operators can be sanctioned or removed. As can be seen on the graph on the previous page, that regime in London cost next to nothing in the late 90s.

View attachment 149237
That is 25 years ago - what is happening now, when there are relatively few operators? And what would happen in the provinces where there are few operators and more widely spaced?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Where you have competitive tendering, such as in London, good performing operators can be rewarded and poor performing operators can be sanctioned or removed. As can be seen on the graph on the previous page, that regime in London cost next to nothing in the late 90s.

View attachment 149237
Far be it from me to suggest that you are rather judicious with focussing in a very narrow period of time. As you've been advised, the early years of competitive tendering still resulted in a large subsidy of over £300m in today's money.

I might add that much of that saving came not from the bus barons but from the erosion of staff terms and conditions of employment. Have you neglected Bexleybus, Harrow Buses as well as the London Forest dispute?

In fact, I'm not sure what your point actually is? Is it that you could have a fantastic service with minimal subsidy because they managed it in London for a few years before Ken released the financial handbrake? A position that competitive tendering nowadays wouldn't be able to achieve as you're starting from a much lower point (i.e. that cost base has already taken place).
 

johncrossley

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That is 25 years ago - what is happening now, when there are relatively few operators?

They may be better off switching to a depot based tendering system like Manchester if the lack of competition if driving up tender prices. It is unclear whether that is the case and the knowledge that TfL have got that option in their back pocket might limit excess profit making by the incumbent contractors.
 

markymark2000

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I live in a small rural town where the last bus now arrives at 9pm and last departure is at 8.15pm. Before Covid, the last arrival was 10pm. Historically there were on Saturday nights late departures at 10.30pm, however with the closure of the local cinema and changing drinking habits, when the last late evening bus was withdrawn, there was just one regular passenger. A waste of money. Covid has further changed peoples habits with many clubs and societies folding this depressed demand further.
Bingo halls have rapidly declined too which used to be a popular place for people of the older generation. Older people would then use the bus to get home as the bus was free with their pass. Theatres and cinemas as you say also closed down or in some cases, moved to out of town places.

The problem is I can't think of any examples of routes where two operators are competing and where that is actually providing a good passenger experience. Usually it makes it worse.
Competition in Liverpool brought about investment in newer, higher spec vehicles and even the introduction of Stagecoach Gold into the area. Because of competition in Bolton, the 125 had a very cheap return ticket. Thanks to competition in Crewe on the 84, D&G and Stagecoach have introduced cheaper tickets and the frequency is now higher than when Arriva ran the route on their own, is that not better for passengers?

In most cases now though, there are ticket agreements in place between operators which has huge benefits for passengers connecting onto other buses (yourself and others often say about how connections are important and should be made easy for passengers). The Activ8 route in Salisbury has a great system where there is ticket acceptance between Stagecoach and Salisbury Reds. If people want to connect onto other buses at either end, they can do so with the operators own tickets. Is that not a good thing? If this was Salisbury Reds only, connections onto other buses in Andover would require an additional payment and similarly if it was ran by Stagecoach, connections in Salisbury would require additional payments.

TfL is in the remit of the Mayor of London, an elected position, and is a public body which makes it subject to, among other things, Freedom of Information regulations. This is already vastly more accountability than FirstGroup or Stagecoach has, for example.
Just because TFL is under the Mayor of London, they are by no means accountable. Mayors do what they want and no amount of public backlash stops that. Are you actually keeping up with what has been going on in London? Back in 2019, 79% of people objected to TFLs plans to reroute buses in Croydon, the plans went ahead anyway. As with almost everything political these days, it doesn't matter what the public want, the elected officials are never held accountable and staff within the public transport authorities are never, ever held accountable. More and more Freedom of Information requests are being refused as Authorities don't want you to have the information. IF you call them out for anything and they either ignore you, run off crying, blame someone else, or poorly justify their decisions for mismanaging public funds. It's happening all around the UK right now. No elected position is accountable anymore. You can attempt to vote them out but then they are all as bad as eachother, nothing changes.

I don't think the service provided is amazing but I think it's usable. This is because every time I have tried to catch a bus in London, one has turned up within a sensible timeframe and not been an ancient rattling piece of rubbish. It has also had clear information on board so I know which stop to alight at and the fares have been reasonable. This is far more than I have come to expect from anywhere in the UK outside London.
'Ancient rattling piece of rubbish', most of Londons buses are also available outside of London and the bodies built to the same specification. You have also been lucky in London to not have a rattling bus because I assure you, there are many.
Fares are reasonable outside of London generally (yes some exceptions), as we have been through many times before on this forum, bus fares outside of London reward regulars as the weekly ticket prices can often be cheaper than the London bus cap! I also notice that you haven't mentioned anywhere that since the Bee Network in Manchester, a good number of people are paying more for their journeys. Diamonds SuperSaver for route 37/38 was £15.60 for a weekly. It's now £21 for the Bee Network ticket. 33% price increase due to the network being publicly ran. That is on top of the mayoral precept which has gone up to cover the costs of this operation so people are paying extra, twice, for this bus network, once through council tax and also through fares. Wonderful system, let's all dance around the campfire and sing positive songs.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. Of course councils can subsidise bus services but this has nothing to do with holding the commerical operators to account for the standard of service they are providing.
There are things that they can do and things that they are going. Not all make them popular with operators but it's happening. Warrington Bus Station operates on a slot based system and, unless you are Warringtons own buses, if you miss your slot due to not being on time, they have the right to refuse you permission to stop at the bus station. The bus station manager could get away with fining an operator as well for using a bus stand not in their allotted time slot. Merseyside have started to charge departure fees at bus stations depending on which 'euro' rating the bus is (so emissions based charging) which encourages companies to use more environmentally friendly buses. OF course this isn't seen in the public eye though.

In general though, councils can do hold commercial operators to account, they choose not to. As Exeter Council did, councils can monitor performance and report operators to the Traffic Commissioner which can result in large financial penalties for the operators. The regulatory body for enforcing punctuality should be higher up than local authorities, not least because some authorities have a very 'anti bus' approach and will fine operators constantly and the area would have no buses left at all (To throw an example out there of how 'anti bus' councils can be, Milton Keynes reported all of the operators for not running a full timetable during Covid)
 

Tetchytyke

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Timetable World is your friend. Apparently a 3 zone Travelticket was £1.50 in 1985 and it would be £4.56 today
That’s the equivalent of the Day Rover, not the Transfare.

Worth noting that the Day Rover has just come down to six quid due to funding from NECA. It was almost nine quid before that- so the price had doubled in real terms since 1986. Hoorah for private sector innovation :E

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Oxford, routes 1, 3 and 5, Stagecoach and Go-Ahead. Firstly, both operators run route 3 and call it route 3, while 1 and 5 are the same route but with different numbers by operator. Why the inconsistency? Secondly I remember trying to get a cross-operator ticket issued to a smartcard there. Tried to buy it on a Stagecoach bus - "we can't issue that, go to the travelshop". Stagecoach doesn't have a travelshop so I went to the Go-Ahead one - "we can't issue that, ask Stagecoach". Ridiculous.
Amazingly Oxford is highlighted by those of a private sector persuasion as an example of strong private sector co-operation!

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5.60 for a Day Rover ain't bad.
As above, the Day Rover is six quid- reduced from a truly disgusting nine quid in November 2023 with funding from the NECA.

For context the Day Rover in 1986 was £1.50- £4.27 in today’s money.

The equivalent of the 3-zone Transfare was about 70p in 1986- £1.99 in today’s money. But there used to be a lot more Transfare zones, and fares used to be a lot more graduated.

Goes to show just how much privatisation of the buses and Metro has ripped off the paying public of the north east. A 100% price rise in real terms. Even with the NECA money it’s still a 40-ish% real terms price rise.

And they wonder why bus usage is plummeting.
 
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Goldfish62

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Really? There are plenty of e200s and e400s that are no different to those in the provinces
I'd say older London E200s tend to be more rattly due to flexing around the centre door. On the plus side you're far less likely to find threadbare, faded seats due to the internal refurbishment that takes place every 7-8 years.

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Moving on, having had a brief look through this thread I'm amazed that there's little acknowledgement of what's been going on over the past few years and how it completely changes the economic model of running bus services.

If you doubt me read that arch deregulator Julian Peddle's column in the current issue of Buses who, having acknowledged in previous columns that the deregulated model is dead, is now advocating nationalisation of bus operations in metropolitan areas.
 
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WAB

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I think that you are forgetting that many evening and Sunday services have to be subsidised by local authorities. Bus service provision is not statutory hence with Councils struggling to balance their books, such niceties cannot be financed, especially with costs in Education and Social Work provision.

I live in a small rural town where the last bus now arrives at 9pm and last departure is at 8.15pm. Before Covid, the last arrival was 10pm. Historically there were on Saturday nights late departures at 10.30pm, however with the closure of the local cinema and changing drinking habits, when the last late evening bus was withdrawn, there was just one regular passenger. A waste of money. Covid has further changed peoples habits with many clubs and societies folding. This depressed demand further.
Well someone (i.e., central government) is going to have to step in to fund peripheral journeys, or the death spiral will leave us with urban networks (generally under PTEs) and a spartan social need network elsewhere. Take a look anywhere, and the definition of peripheral services was after 11, then 10, then 9... until you suddenly find yourself with a network that doesn't even work for commutes, let alone leisure travel.
 

Snex

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Think one thing that's been missed comparing London and other areas is habits have changed. In London, most people still go shopping or for their leisure at a local centre.

Compare that to outside where most of it nowadays is out of town, with the car in mind. It's really hard to compare. Just picking locally around here, we still have loads of buses running to places like the centre of Durham. The catch-22 is all the cars and people are both at the Arnison Centre and Dragonville on the outskirts where there's all the shopping you need including the 2 major supermarkets (Tesco and Sainsbury's) and Durham centre is a complete ghost town. Go further North, we have 3 massive business parks, Doxford Park on the outskirts of Sunderland, Cobalt in North Tyneside and Quorum just to the North of Newcastle, surprising all with massive car parks and absolutely no provision for buses to sensibly serve most of them. Where do the buses go? Sunderland, North Shields and Newcastle and again, the first two are a complete ghost town and that's just the tip of the iceburg - I haven't even mentioned the Metrocentre yet which opened post deregulation.

Before deregulation, the idea of out of town shopping or working for most would be a completely foreign concept and that's before even starting with online shopping / working.

It's the big problem for rural services as unless you cover all these above, people will not use them, as they simply don't want to be in the centre of town anymore.
 
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