Design your own open-access operator

[TheGuy77]

Not any competition or anything, but what are your ideas for open access operators?

Make sure you tell us what stations you plan to serve, and the purpose of it.

Here's one of mine:

London KX
Stevenage
Peterborough
Grantham
Nottingham
Alfreton
Chesterfield
Sheffield
Meadowhall

THEN

Rotherham Central
Pontefract Baghill
York

OR

Barnsley
Huddersfield

This would mean new services linking Rotherham, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Alfreton and Meadowhall to the capital, with addition links from Pontefract too. However, the section from Barnsley-Huddersfield is (mostly) single-tracked, so trains to there might have to be less frequent.

And remember, constructive criticism only please.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ideally something like Lumo on the WCML, but doing the low cost airline concept properly, and wholly outside the national ticketing system (as they are in most other countries).

That means:

1. E-ticketed only (including the option just to show ID instead of a ticket)
2. Compulsory reservations, actually enforced
3. Small bag free, but more and larger bags available to purchase, cheaper at the time of booking or online
4. Chargeable seat selection including extra legroom options at a higher fee
5. "Advances" and more flexible fares with the latter also being dynamically priced as per easyJet
6. Long trains - "pile it high, sell it cheap"
7. Lumo's staffing concept - DOO with stewards
8. Ideally using a low-floor unit like a Stadler
9. Options to order food to be delivered to your seat via the website as well as a trolley service

Perhaps the Government could be sold on this being the second Liverpool instead of Avanti, or use pairs of 5 car units and split to both Liverpool and Manchester.

Would probably be abstractive to an extent but like LNR's Trent Valley operation grow the market too. Perhaps Trent Valley calls could make it less purely abstractive.

 

[TheGuy77]

E-ticketed only (including the option just to show ID instead of a ticket)

What if you are, for example, unable to use e-tickets if you don't have a phone, or if you have to use paper tickets for using rail vouchers?

Compulsory reservations, actually enforced

Big yes, nobody likes being forced to stand up for anything more than 45 minutes.

Small bag free, but more and larger bags available to purchase, cheaper at the time of booking or online

Perhaps include 1 suitcase and 1 small carry-on (including specific size limits so everyone's luggage can fit.

Chargeable seat selection including extra legroom options at a higher fee

Yes. Perhaps also charge a higher fee for table seats unless you are travelling in a group or peak time.

"Advances" and more flexible fares with the latter also being dynamically priced as per easyJet

Perhaps do a system where 20-odd seats are sold for £20 with the prices going up by £2.50 for every 20 seats, so the next 20 seats are sold for £22.50, then £25 and £27.50 and so on.

Long trains - "pile it high, sell it cheap"

Another big yes. You would only need one driver to drive a 9-car train every 2 hours, opposed to two drivers both driving 5-car trains every hour. Same for staff members.

Lumo's staffing concept - DOO with stewards

Perhaps if there's two staff members who do everything, from catering to checking passengers.

Ideally using a low-floor unit like a Stadler

The only problem is that not all platforms are built the same, unless I'm wrong.

Options to order food to be delivered to your seat via the website as well as a trolley service

So a trolley instead of a buffet car? Straightforward.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if you are, for example, unable to use e-tickets if you don't have a phone, or if you have to use paper tickets for using rail vouchers?

Rail vouchers would not be valid. They need to go away anyway.

Print it out if you don't have a phone. Or select the option to show ID instead. Pretty sure you can only book Megabus online, though I suppose an option to book by telephone for a fee could be offered. No cash. This would be doing low-cost properly, as Lumo isn't.

Perhaps include 1 suitcase and 1 small carry-on (including specific size limits so everyone's luggage can fit.

No, the low cost model means these would be buy-ups aside from an IATA size carryon (I can't be bothered with the underseat nonsense). This is something Lumo gets wrong. By charging you encourage people to bring a smaller bag, but the option remains (unlike on Lumo) to take more at a fee if you want, e.g. if you're camping or golfing, but allows the numbers to be managed - i.e. don't take any more large bag bookings when the storage will be full. Just like Ryanair, on which I've both flown light(ish, underseat is never enough for me) and taken two paid 25kg checked bags - it just depends what I'm doing!

Cycles carried but at a fee commensurate with that of large luggage.

Yes. Perhaps also charge a higher fee for table seats unless you are travelling in a group or peak time.

Not a bad idea.

So a trolley instead of a buffet car? Straightforward.

More likely to sell stuff.

In short I think there's mileage in the low-cost model, but I don't think Lumo (or even Ouigo) does it very well.

 

[Trainguy34]

Perhaps something like this could be a good use of the 91s and/or DVTs. I think they have a guard's van that could be used in part for luggage and can get up to some decent speeds.

Edit: To fix my atrocious spelling!

 

[YorksLad12]

Not any competition or anything, but what are your ideas for open access operators?

Make sure you tell us what stations you plan to serve, and the purpose of it.

Here's one of mine:

London KX
Stevenage
Peterborough
Grantham
Nottingham
Alfreton
Chesterfield
Sheffield
Meadowhall

THEN

Rotherham Central
Pontefract Baghill
York

OR

Barnsley
Huddersfield

This would mean new services linking Rotherham, Barnsley, Huddersfield, Alfreton and Meadowhall to the capital, with addition links from Pontefract too. However, the section from Barnsley-Huddersfield is (mostly) single-tracked, so trains to there might have to be less frequent.

And remember, constructive criticism only please.

I'm surprised Grand Central haven't suggested this it sounds right up their street, given the meandering way their West Yorkshire services travel between Bradford and Doncaster.

But constructively: you're right that the Huddersfield-Barnsley leg would be difficult to flight given the single track sections. So would the route via Rotherham Central via the single-track Holmes Chord. If the proposed Rotherham Mainline gets built, that would be a better option (and you'd be on the faster route). I'm not sure about the call at Meadowhall either; XC don't call there.

I'd also skip Baghill. GC already calls at Monkhill.

The big question would be around rolling stock. You'd be looking at a diesel or bi-mode, but how many cars were you thinking of? Would there need to be any platform extensions?

And my route would be Huddersfield-Kirkgate-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Scotland, mainly because an OA operator would probably be cheaper than XC for Leeds-Edinburgh trips

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Birmingham International
Birmingham New Street
Wolverhampton
Stafford
Crewe or Stoke On Trent
Stockport
Stalybridge
Huddersfield
Leeds
York
Perhaps on to Scarborough or somewhere else East.

Gets people away from XC via Tamworth or Derby, opens up new journeys from Cheshire and Staffordshire to Yorkshire that currently require changes on to already busy trains via Manchester.

Improves access to Birmingham airport, more relevant to the likes of Crewe/Stoke/Stafford.

Not viable - you'd not get regular paths that were attractive.

Does anyone know when stations like Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe last had direct services to the likes of Leeds/Yorkshire?

The other market worth a butchers is Scotland-WCML-Preston and then on to Devon and Cornwall via Birmingham and Exeter. These services once existed under Virgin XC, of course, but pathing and the reorganisation of franchises killed if off.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

I doubt the paths are there for it, but a Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly-Stoke-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham New Street service would take a lot of pressure off the main capacity pinch point for cross country and provide faster services between Leeds and Manchester.

The other route that could be interesting in the future imo would be a Peterborough-Exeter service via Cambridge, East West Rail and Bristol. Currently a lot of SW-NE travellers have to choose between cross country or going in and out of London. Lots of local traffic to tap into for journeys like Swindon-Oxford or Peterborough-Milton Keynes (via Bletchley).

Would also provide an alternative route for getting to places like Milton Keynes, East Anglia, and anywhere on the LNER network from the SW or vice-versa without needing the hubs of Birmingham or London. And as a result take pressure off cross country as previously mentioned

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I doubt the paths are there for it, but a Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester Piccadilly-Stoke-Stafford-Wolverhampton-Birmingham New Street service would take a lot of pressure off the main capacity pinch point for cross country and provide faster services between Leeds and Manchester.

The other route that could be interesting in the future imo would be a Peterborough-Exeter service via Cambridge, East West Rail and Bristol. Currently a lot of SW-NE travellers have to choose between cross country or going in and out of London. Lots of local traffic to tap into for journeys like Swindon-Oxford or Peterborough-Milton Keynes (via Bletchley).

Would also provide an alternative route for getting to places like Milton Keynes, East Anglia, and anywhere on the LNER network from the SW or vice-versa without needing the hubs of Birmingham or London. And as a result take pressure off cross country as previously mentioned

On the topic of East West Rail, one prospective Open Access Operator has fairly recently procured some consultancy to assess the viability of using that route, in the event that their preferred route into Euston is refused by ORR.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Nobody said anything about not using the Chunnel so let’s get out the crayons (yes I am fully aware of all the issues for new international services, let’s just pretend they don’t exist and everything is lovely)

- Manchester Piccadilly
- Birmingham New Street
- Lille Europe (where the train splits/joins)
one half for
- Paris Gare du Nord
and the other half to
- Rotterdam Centraal
- Amsterdam Centraal

Seasonal ski sleeper service:
- London St Pancras
- Ashford International
- Lille Europe
- Lyon Part Dieu
- Grenoble (where the train splits/joins)
One portion to
- Veynes - Dévoluy
- Gap
- Chorges
- Embrun
- Mont-Dauphin - Guillestre
- L’Argentière-Les-Écrins
- Briançon
One portion to
- Montmélian
- St-Pierre-d’Albigny
- Albertville
- Bourg St Maurice

South of France and Spain Sleeper Trains
One portion from
- Glasgow
- Edinburgh
- Newcastle
- Leeds
- Peterborough
One portion from
- Manchester Piccadilly
- Crewe
- Birmingham New Street
- Milton Keynes
- London St Pancras (where the train splits/joins)
- Ebbsfleet International
- Ashford International
- Avignon Centre (where the train splits/joins)
One Portion to:
- Nimes
- Montpelier
- Béziers
- Narbonne
- Perpignan
- Cerbère
- Girona
- Maçanet-Massanes
- Barcelona Sants
One Portion to:
- Aix-en-Provence
- Marseille-Blancarde
- Toulon
- Cannes
- Nice Ville

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Euston - Manchester Victoria - Huddersfield - Halifax - Bradford Interchange

Would take longer than changing at Leeds but it's the only thing I can think of.

 

[signed]

Ashford - Charles de Gaulle Airport / Marne La Vallée as a Ultra Low Cost IZY/OUIGO style service. Would allow for connections with most common destinations in one go while avoiding Paris entirely

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Nobody said anything about not using the Chunnel so let’s get out the crayons (yes I am fully aware of all the issues for new international services, let’s just pretend they don’t exist and everything is lovely)

- Manchester Piccadilly
- Birmingham New Street
- Lille Europe (where the train splits/joins)
one half for
- Paris Gare du Nord
and the other half to
- Rotterdam Centraal
- Amsterdam Centraal

Seasonal ski sleeper service:
- London St Pancras
- Ashford International
- Lille Europe
- Lyon Part Dieu
- Grenoble (where the train splits/joins)
One portion to
- Veynes - Dévoluy
- Gap
- Chorges
- Embrun
- Mont-Dauphin - Guillestre
- L’Argentière-Les-Écrins
- Briançon
One portion to
- Montmélian
- St-Pierre-d’Albigny
- Albertville
- Bourg St Maurice

South of France and Spain Sleeper Trains
One portion from
- Glasgow
- Edinburgh
- Newcastle
- Leeds
- Peterborough
One portion from
- Manchester Piccadilly
- Crewe
- Birmingham New Street
- Milton Keynes
- London St Pancras (where the train splits/joins)
- Ebbsfleet International
- Ashford International
- Avignon Centre (where the train splits/joins)
One Portion to:
- Nimes
- Montpelier
- Béziers
- Narbonne
- Perpignan
- Cerbère
- Girona
- Maçanet-Massanes
- Barcelona Sants
One Portion to:
- Aix-en-Provence
- Marseille-Blancarde
- Toulon
- Cannes
- Nice Ville

I used to commute into Blancarde every evening (leaving Saint Charles in the morning), separating passengers would be a nightmare

 

[TheWierdOne]

I used to commute into Blancarde every evening (leaving Saint Charles in the morning), separating passengers would be a nightmare

My thinking is that most of these would have passport checks done in transit or while holding the train on a platform or siding (potentially at Calais Frethun inbound to the UK and using a track at Dollands Moor outbound to France) before the Chunnel so that more stops could be served without the need for heavy infrastructure. It would also remove the need for passport teams stationed abroad as they could use the shuttle each day or the last train each way could pick them up.
I don’t know Marseille at all (I used to live in Grenoble, never made it further south) so just went off of maps and assumed the metro and trams would make up for not using Marseille Saint Charles

 

[TheGuy77]

I'm surprised Grand Central haven't suggested this it sounds right up their street, given the meandering way their West Yorkshire services travel between Bradford and Doncaster.

But constructively: you're right that the Huddersfield-Barnsley leg would be difficult to flight given the single track sections. So would the route via Rotherham Central via the single-track Holmes Chord. If the proposed Rotherham Mainline gets built, that would be a better option (and you'd be on the faster route). I'm not sure about the call at Meadowhall either; XC don't call there.

I'd also skip Baghill. GC already calls at Monkhill.

The big question would be around rolling stock. You'd be looking at a diesel or bi-mode, but how many cars were you thinking of? Would there need to be any platform extensions?

And my route would be Huddersfield-Kirkgate-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Scotland, mainly because an OA operator would probably be cheaper than XC for Leeds-Edinburgh trips

There have been talks about double-tracking the Penistone Line which would make it easier to run open-access trains. I would use a bi-mode version of TPE's 397's (5 coaches), which should fit most platforms as the route calls at only major stations. (Yes I know their build quality in their Mark 5/A coaches pretty low considering cracks were found, but the 397s do seem fine.

The route via Rotherham is temporary, and would be served by a new Rotherham Mainline station, which could possibly also see CrossCountry and TransPennine express running there as well as Northern.

I am, however, firm on calling at Meadowhall. It is a very popular area for tourists and shoppers alike.

 

[signed]

My thinking is that most of these would have passport checks done in transit or while holding the train on a platform or siding (potentially at Calais Frethun inbound to the UK and using a track at Dollands Moor outbound to France) before the Chunnel so that more stops could be served without the need for heavy infrastructure. It would also remove the need for passport teams stationed abroad as they could use the shuttle each day or the last train each way could pick them up.
I don’t know Marseille at all (I used to live in Grenoble, never made it further south) so just went off of maps and assumed the metro and trams would make up for not using Marseille Saint Charles

I know it's crayon, but the UK have repeatedly said (though under Tory gov) that the only way they would allow it would be with juxtaposed controls. And the various shuttles with a deboarding at Lille have always been quite unpopular

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I know it's crayon, but the UK have repeatedly said (though under Tory gov) that the only way they would allow it would be with juxtaposed controls. And the various shuttles with a deboarding at Lille have always been quite unpopular

It’s also not just the immigration and customs but the need for security screening.

 

[Howardh]

Might happen; Chorley, Bolton, Picc to Euston and the same to Birmingham and beyond.
With snack bar in the middle of the train (not a half hours walk from Standard +!).
If a loop around Wigan could be rebuilt trains could start at Bolton and go that way avoiding the corridor but I doubt that would ever happen for the sake of one Open Operator.
Anyway, I believe there are plans for the former!
Also, and I'm puzzled why TPE don't do this already, PRE, BON, MCV, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Leeds, York.

 

[TheGuy77]

London KX
Stevenage
Peterborough
Grantham
Nottingham
Alfreton
Chesterfield
Sheffield
Meadowhall

THEN

Rotherham Central
Pontefract Baghill
York

OR

Barnsley
Huddersfield

Here's my revised idea (inspired by Alliance Rail's GNER proposal) with six routes (yes, it's a lot for open-access, but the ORR does say there can be up to 20 fast tph on the ECML)

All these services are 4tpd (1tp3h), and would be run with a bi-mode version of the class 803 (if you know what I mean). This is more of a regional-express service.

Sheffield Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham, Ilkeston, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Dronfield, Sheffield.
Skegness Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Sleaford, Boston, Skegness.
Cleethorpes Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Hykeham, Lincoln, Market Rasen, Grimsby Town, Cleethorpes.
Huddersfield Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Huddersfield.
Scarborough Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Malton, Seamer, Scarborough.
Middlesbrough Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Eaglescliffe, Thornaby, Middlesbrough.

Feel free to edit my idea above.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Here's my revised idea (inspired by Alliance Rail's GNER proposal) with six routes (yes, it's a lot for open-access, but the ORR does say there can be up to 20 fast tph on the ECML)

All these services are 4tpd (1tp3h).

Sheffield Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Dronfield, Sheffield.
Skegness Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Sleaford, Boston, Skegness.
Cleethorpes Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Hykeham, Lincoln, Grimsby Town, Cleethorpes.
Huddersfield Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Doncaster, Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Huddersfield.
Scarborough Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Doncaster, York, Malton, Seamer, Scarborough.
Middlesbrough Express: London King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Thornaby, Middlesbrough.

Feel free to edit my idea above.

No issues with the routes but think you need to change the definition of your services from express. Calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark is hardly express…

It’s more of a regional semi-fast providing connectivity.

 

[robspaceman]

A low cost SW-NW and Scotland service via the marches. Something like major Cornwall stations-Plymouth-Exeter-Taunton-BristolTM-Severn tunnel junction (for S Wales)-Abergavenney-Hereford-Salop-Crewe-ManPicc-Preston-Carlisle (split)-Glasgow/Edinburgh.

Perhaps just aimed at leisure traffic rather than daily. You lose some time and connection opportunities by not going via Birmingham but would probably have more paths available this way. Could go via Newport with a reversal for better S Wales connectivity.

 

[The Planner]

The irony of a Skegness express...

 

[mrcheek]

I still like the idea of an Easyjet/Ryanair type service

Bristol to London!
Except actually we start at Nailsea and Backwell, avoid Bristol by heading through St Phillips Marsh, and drop you all off at Maidenhead. Well, with the Elizabeth Line, thats near enough to London!

 

[Gareth]

Perhaps the Government could be sold on this being the second Liverpool instead of Avanti, or use pairs of 5 car units and split to both Liverpool and Manchester.

Nah. We'll settle for the second Avanti. Thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nah. We'll settle for the second Avanti. Thanks.

There's clearly a big low cost market. When the timetable destroying through service via Birmingham operated it was remarkably popular despite taking 5 hours.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I still like the idea of an Easyjet/Ryanair type service

Bristol to London!
Except actually we start at Nailsea and Backwell, avoid Bristol by heading through St Phillips Marsh, and drop you all off at Maidenhead. Well, with the Elizabeth Line, thats near enough to London!

St Philips Marsh is not a passenger line. For the rare occasion it’s been used for engineering works it’s requires lots of special instructions and brings a core maintenance depot to a stand.

 

[Gareth]

There's clearly a big low cost market. When the timetable destroying through service via Birmingham operated it was remarkably popular despite taking 5 hours.

There's no significant market for a 5+ hour journey to London.

Avanti's priced reasonably enough and the extra seats will sell easily.

 

[FGWHST43009]

For me I'd like Swansea-Edinburgh via Doncaster and Newcastle to provide a direct connection from Swansea and Cardiff to Birmingham New Street and beyond. Preferably with a 9-car bi-mode unit. On the international front, Edinburgh-Paris or Brussels via the ECML would be cool. Something like:
Edinburgh
Newcastle
York
Peterborough
Stratford International
Ashford International
Calais-Frethun
Paris Gare du Nord/Bruxelles

Another cool one I've thought of is this:
Swansea
Bridgend
Cardiff Central
Newport
Bristol Parkway
Swindon
Didcot Parkway
Basingstoke
Winchester
Eastleigh then
Southampton Central
Bournemouth
Poole or
Fareham
Portsmouth & Southsea
Portsmouth Harbour

 

[JamesT]

There's no significant market for a 5+ hour journey to London.

Dundee and Aberdeen say hello.

 

[Sorcerer]

I'm just going to go full-blown fantasy and probably pie-in-the-sky to many on here, but if I could have my own open access operator I'd open it once HS2 was completed and followed Italo's model of having a high speed competitor with the primary operator. I'd have it with less stopping patterns on most routes to provide a premium express service.

• London Euston - Old Oak Common - Birmingham Interchange - Birmingham Curzon Street
• London Euston - Old Oak Common - Crewe - Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly
• London Euston - Old Oak Common - Stafford - Crewe - Runcorn - Liverpool Lime Street
• London Euston - Old Oak Common - Golborne (if built) - Preston - Lancaster - Carlisle - Glasgow
• London Euston - Old Oak Common - Golborne (if built) - Preston - Lancaster - Carlisle - Haymarket - Edinburgh

Rolling stock would ideally be newly built non-tilting stock derived from the ETR 675 New Pendolino but scaled down appropriately to British loading gauge and capable of 300km/h (186mph) to run on HS2. Livery is also similar to Italo but is scarlet red rather than racing red and has solid gold doors instead of gold lining around the edges, and the black window band ends before a cab door instead of wrapping around the cab window, along with the orange lining along the edge of the roof as is the legal requirement.

Service would include both standard and first class. Standard class passengers can order refreshments to their table on the operator app similar to Lumo or Avanti, and first class passengers can also do this as well as receive a full table service of breakfast, lunch and evening meals depending on the time of day. Free Wi-Fi will be available to all passengers. Tickets can bought online and from ticket machines, and railcards are naturally also accepted. Reservations not compulsory. Loyalty programme will also be available to frequent travellers.

Again, pie-in-the-sky and more full-blown fantasy than other entries, but I still hope it has it's place on here since it is a speculative discussion, and constructive criticism will be just as welcome.