Designation of First Class

[Bartsimho]

Should the designation of a First-Class service be legalised to have a basic minimum because many of the "First Class" offerings are very poor on the railways and many would be better branded business class and might get more custom if branded that way?

I would define First Class as having:

Included meal with at seat meal delivery on a plate
Included Hot and Cold drinks (non-alcoholic)
A seat within parameters regarding size, pitch and other comfort metrics.

What many "First Class" offerings are would be better as business class branded

 

[Bald Rick]

I would define First Class as having:

Included meal with at seat meal delivery on a plate
Included Hot and Cold drinks (non-alcoholic)

What, even for EastCroydon to London?

 

[Bartsimho]

What, even for EastCroydon to London?

Yes. If it is not that it is not First Class, it might be more Business Class but not First Class.

First Class conjures images of some luxury not just an actual decent seat and package sandwiches

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes. If it is not that it is not First Class, it might be more Business Class but not First Class.

First Class conjures images of some luxury not just an actual decent seat and package sandwiches

What about Milton Keynes to London, on a train that has come from Manchester?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would consider one fewer seat across as the basic essential, i.e. if the rest of the train is 3+2 then 2+2, if the rest of the train is 2+2 then 2+1.

 

[Bartsimho]

What about Milton Keynes to London, on a train that has come from Manchester?

Do they offer the meal service for those passengers?

 

[SynthD]

“Thank you for joining us on this Avanti service from Glasgow to London. The next station is Rugby, after which first class is declassified.”

You won’t get the service you want, they will use loopholes to provide a sensible service that looks remarkably like today, but possibly worse.

They’ll get more custom if it’s cheaper, so make it cheaper by not adding the need to serve late additions? I like the idea of pitch and width requirements but this forum rightly cares about the comfort, the padding of the seat.

 

[Bartsimho]

I would consider one fewer seat across as the basic essential, i.e. if the rest of the train is 3+2 then 2+2, if the rest of the train is 2+2 then 2+1.

That could probably be enforced in seat regulations

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2023 ==

“Thank you for joining us on this Avanti service from Glasgow to London. The next station is Rugby, after which first class is declassified.”

You won’t get the service you want, they will use loopholes to provide a sensible service that looks remarkably like today, but possibly worse.

They’ll get more custom if it’s cheaper, so make it cheaper by not adding the need to serve late additions? I like the idea of pitch and width requirements but this forum rightly cares about the comfort, the padding of the seat.

Maybe rather than declassified they would probably call it business so they can charge more per seat still

 

[Bald Rick]

Do they offer the meal service for those passengers?

nope. It’s half an hour.

Butyoull be sitting next to someone who has been on the train over 2 hours from Manchester, who is tucking in.

 

[Merle Haggard]

What about Milton Keynes to London, on a train that has come from Manchester?

Although the train has first class accommodation there's no reason why it should be available for short journeys such as this. There are EMR Inter City Up trains that stop at Bedford or Wellingborough and a first class fare is not available from those stations.

 

[Bald Rick]

Although the train has first class accommodation there's no reason why it should be available for short journeys such as this. There are EMR Inter City Up trains that stop at Bedford or Wellingborough and a first class fare is not available from those stations.

In the working week, 3 a day from Wellingborough, and 1 from Bedford.

54 a day from MK.

And there are first class fares from Bedford to London. £80.80 anytime return any operator.

 

[Bartsimho]

They should be sold as Business fares rather than First. The carriage swaps between depending on where it is with Stations from which a meal service can be present being First Class and those which it isn't possible being Business at a lower price point

 

[SynthD]

They should be sold as Business fares rather than First. The carriage swaps between depending on where it is with Stations from which a meal service can be present being First Class and those which it isn't possible being Business at a lower price point

What do you mean by carriage swap? Detach and reattach, and move passengers around like it’s the 1920s will not do.

 

[Bartsimho]

What do you mean by carriage swap? Detach and reattach, and move passengers around like it’s the 1920s will not do.

Swaps classification between being for First only to being First and Business

 

[SynthD]

Swaps classification between being for First only to being First and Business

That sounds like the loophole I described above. If that’s acceptable to you, why not tolerate what is done today?

 

[Hadders]

Swaps classification between being for First only to being First and Business

Would Business Class be cheaper than the current First Class fare?

If so anyone travelling from Manchester to London would buy a 1st class ticket from Manchester to Milton Keynes and a Business Class ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston.

 

[09matpal]

I definitely agree that the should be a more consistent first class standard across the UK, there is such a variation between services which probably puts people off upgrading as they don't know what to expect.

Bigger 2+1 seating should be the minimum, it's good that the glorified seat reservation first class around London is being removed.

The meal is an issue for example Transport for Wales' MK4 Services between Cardiff - Holyhead and Manchester do not have the meal incuded. The 3 course meal is £21 extra, do these services get demoted.

My speculation is that because the 197's will have first class but no kitchen, so the base price will have the bigger seat and drinks as part of the base price regards of 197 or MK4 service.

I think at the very least the price should probably reflect the level of first class and make it clear to passengers what you get for the money for the service you take.

 

[JonathanH]

I definitely agree that the should be a more consistent first class standard across the UK, there is such a variation between services which probably puts people off upgrading as they don't know what to expect.

Do all journeys in first class need to be more consistent as well? For example, should first class only be between the primary destinations served by the train?

 

[A S Leib]

It should definitely have a table and charging points at every seat (although the table is probably implied by the "meal on a plate" mentioned in post 1) and ideally without any chairs half-blocking windows (which should ideally apply to standard in 99% of cases as well).

 

[Hadders]

it's good that the glorified seat reservation first class around London is being removed.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this but in my view 1st class on outer suburban basically guarantees you a seat in return for a higher fare.

If I'm doing a journey like Stevenage to Exeter in 1st class I'd rather not sit on a Thameslink ironing board seat between Stevenage and London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I'm doing a journey like Stevenage to Exeter in 1st class I'd rather not sit on a Thameslink ironing board seat between Stevenage and London.

Fortunately due to Thameslink's declassification policy you have no need to pay for not doing so - simply get in the rear coach rather than the front. Though I'm not sure how much of an upgrade a Fainsa Sophia is - the metal bar can be felt on these now the cushions are getting on a bit (though they're nowhere near as bad as GWR).

If you mean using a through First Class ticket, then if it's cheaper split and pay for Standard for the first bit, or use LNER instead.

Personally I think GTR and SWR should "complete the set" of removing First Class on London commuter services, I think they're the only ones left now? Though i could see a case for SWR keeping it on the Weymouths only as that's really a proper long distance service taking in the region of 3 hours.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I don’t quite get the GB fascination that first class on the railways should include complimentary food and drink, this is very rare across the rest of Europe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t quite get the GB fascination that first class on the railways should include complimentary food and drink, this is very rare across the rest of Europe.

It's my view that it shouldn't, to be honest. I'd rather pay for the food and drink I want and not an inflated fare to cover food and drink I don't want*, though I could be sold on free tea, coffee and water as that costs next to nothing to do, particularly if self service by way of a couple of flasks in the middle of each coach. Though it'd be nice if the standard buffet menu was served on proper crockery etc for 1st.

* Invariably it's "taster menu" style stuff, not big enough to be a meal.

 

[skyhigh]

They should be sold as Business fares rather than First. The carriage swaps between depending on where it is with Stations from which a meal service can be present being First Class and those which it isn't possible being Business at a lower price point

Classic RailForums sledgehammer to crack a nut.

There are already complaints that UK railways and their fares are too confusing.

Now you're proposing introducing another class of travel and coaches (depending on the route they're used) might either be standard class, business class or first class. You'll then have 3 classes of ticket that you can split ticket - so presumably you could sit in the first class coach with a business class ticket if you split your ticket between stations even though you're making the full journey.

In the real world if I want to know what's included in First class I just have a look at the TOC website when I'm buying my ticket. That's what I do when travelling in Europe.

 

[Hadders]

Fortunately due to Thameslink's declassification policy you have no need to pay for not doing so - simply get in the rear coach rather than the front.

The rear 1st class compartment cannot be considered as First Class these days, it's become Chav Class and it really best avoided.

If you mean using a through First Class ticket, then if it's cheaper split and pay for Standard for the first bit, or use LNER instead.

LNER don't call at every station. I believe there is a large 1st class market from places like Cambridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

The rear 1st class compartment cannot be considered as First Class these days, it's become Chav Class and it really best avoided

In my experience the front (ie actual!) first class section has become chav class too. Could barely get a seat in it last night, full of teenagers on their phones. or maybe they really did have first class tickets, and I’m being awfully judgemental and stereotypical.

 

[RobShipway]

I don’t quite get the GB fascination that first class on the railways should include complimentary food and drink, this is very rare across the rest of Europe.

The issue is that when it comes to first class many people seem to expect what in the past was in the likes of the Brighton Pullman service that ended in the early 1970's where passengers such as Lord Olivier has a three course meal while travelling between London to Brighton or vice versa. The nearest you have to that today is services like Orient Express from London Victoria to Folkstone.

The only time that you are going to get food in first class, is when you are travelling on the likes of the LNER service from Edingburgh to London Kings Cross https://www.lner.co.uk/the-east-coast-experience/first-class/menu/ GWR https://www.gwr.com/travelling-with-us/first-class/food-and-drink AWC: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/onboard/first-class/first-class-menus

However, certainly with GWR the Pullman dining costs extra I believe to the first class ticket and it maybe the same with LNER and AWC. When it comes to buying tickets though, GWR does have it's Business Direct service https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/ways-to-save/business-travel, but it is just another way of buying a first class set ticket from what I can see. But probably will be corrected on that point.

 

[Bartsimho]

Would Business Class be cheaper than the current First Class fare?

If so anyone travelling from Manchester to London would buy a 1st class ticket from Manchester to Milton Keynes and a Business Class ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston.

Business would be cheaper but not so much cheaper that it's better to spilt ticket. So if it costs £100 for 1st between Manchester and London 1st from Manchester to Milton Keynes and then Business Class from Milton Keynes to London would be £150 (values are non-sensical)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe there is a large 1st class market from places like Cambridge.

Is it still large, though? The London commuter 1st market was considered large pre-COVID, but post-COVID it was considered near nonexistent.

I still think Chiltern "blazed the trail" in commuter terms with their services in basically the poshest part of the entire country, by saying that instead of having 1st they would just make Standard quite good. It did come back with the LHCS but I suspect that was more just because the buffet coaches all had 1st in them anyway and reseating them to Standard would have been more expensive than thinking of something to do with them. They are of course now all declassified (but retain Business Zone markings, so knowing you can sit there is a bit of an exclusive commuter club).

 

[jon81uk]

Swaps classification between being for First only to being First and Business

Isn't this basically what Avanti call standard premier? Its the better seat but none of the service benefits like food/drink.

The issue is that when it comes to first class many people seem to expect what in the past was in the likes of the Brighton Pullman service that ended in the early 1970's where passengers such as Lord Olivier has a three course meal while travelling between London to Brighton or vice versa. The nearest you have to that today is services like Orient Express from London Victoria to Folkstone.

The only time that you are going to get food in first class, is when you are travelling on the likes of the LNER service from Edingburgh to London Kings Cross https://www.lner.co.uk/the-east-coast-experience/first-class/menu/ GWR https://www.gwr.com/travelling-with-us/first-class/food-and-drink AWC: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/onboard/first-class/first-class-menus

However, certainly with GWR the Pullman dining costs extra I believe to the first class ticket and it maybe the same with LNER and AWC. When it comes to buying tickets though, GWR does have it's Business Direct service https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/ways-to-save/business-travel, but it is just another way of buying a first class set ticket from what I can see. But probably will be corrected on that point.

My expectation of Intercity First Class is what Virgin were offering in the 2000s, a light meal served on china on most weekday services and a decent snack and hot/cold drinks at the weekend. I did it a couple of times and got a small cooked breakfast, coffee, juice and toast or pastries on the train from Birmingham to London. If boarding at Milton Keynes I wouldn't expect the breakfast but a coffee and maybe a croissant and that should be reflected in the ticket price that Birmingham to London has time for a light meal but MK doesn't.

I think first class should be just removed from suburban services that aren't what you'd normally call Intercity. Then on the longer services I think a light meal on weekday services longer than 90 minutes or so seems reasonable. Otherwise hot drinks and snacks should be the minimum. If services are unable to offer light meals it should be reflected in the first class pricing, or no first class should be offered, for example the difference between Avanti/Virgin and Chiltern for the Birmingham to London services.