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Destaffing UK rail compared with International

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DMckduck

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Just been visiting the states for a week around New York and made me realise just how much destaffing has eroded public transport in Britain. They even have conductors on their subway trains!

Is it the same in other countries? And why are we so obsessed with decimating employee numbers especially on the railways and customer service on the metro services??
 
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StephenHunter

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I once spent a warm, insect-infested and unpleasant hour at Otwock on the outskirts of Warsaw, with no platform display screen, no staff and no way to buy the mandatory reservation for any IC train.
 

Richard Scott

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If you think UK is bad try the Continent especially former Western countries such as France and Germany. Platform staff non existent, few booking offices to speak of except major stations. Remember arriving at Monchengladbach a few years ago on a diverted ICE where many people had to change, no staff at all to help and a lot of people had no clue what to do. Good job one or two of us did.
Likewise on Paris metro, train terminated due to an incident, we were chucked out onto the street, no rail replacement bus, which you would get here. In days before Google maps, we just had to find our way.
Be careful what you wish for.
 

DMckduck

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If you think UK is bad try the Continent especially former Western countries such as France and Germany. Platform staff non existent, few booking offices to speak of except major stations. Remember arriving at Monchengladbach a few years ago on a diverted ICE where many people had to change, no staff at all to help and a lot of people had no clue what to do. Good job one or two of us did.
Likewise on Paris metro, train terminated due to an incident, we were chucked out onto the street, no rail replacement bus, which you would get here. In days before Google maps, we just had to find our way.
Be careful what you wish for.
I think the UK railways is massively understaffed as is and needs significant staffing budgeting, but some of your examples probably happen here. Imagine a train terminates in the middle of nowhere here at service end, who's going to help the non English speaking tourist's get to their destination. Sort of the same issues you've had on the continent wouldn't you say
 

Richard Scott

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I think the UK railways is massively understaffed as is and needs significant staffing budgeting, but some of your examples probably happen here. Imagine a train terminates in the middle of nowhere here at service end, who's going to help the non English speaking tourist's get to their destination. Sort of the same issues you've had on the continent wouldn't you say
No, I wouldn't say same sort of issues in the UK; Monchengladbach is not a small, insignificant place. The issue was not with tourists but the Germans. I had to explain to a number of them how to get to their destination. I have never experienced such an issue in the UK where nobody was on hand to sort out an issue.
This is not an isolated incident in Germany, have had to help numerous natives over the years to get to their destination.
I have travelled extensively on the Continent and one thing that does stand out in the former Western countries is the lack of staff compared to the UK. Last year had to help a blind woman onto a train at Koblenz (a somewhat significant sized town/city), no assistance available there. That would not happen in an equivalent sized town/city in the UK.
 

DanielB

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Not necessary much better in the Netherlands. And where staff is present, it may well be invisible for the passengers. Not uncommon at all here that the guard is hiding in the back cab instead of walking through the train.
Ticket offices have closed at many stations, there even is a station with the status "Centraal" without a ticket office nowadays (a status stations only get when used by > 40.000 passengers a day in a city with > 100.000 inhabitants, so in general those are significant hubs in the network)

At lots of stations you'll find just one service employee behind a desk at the concourse, which obviously doesn't help a lot in case of disruption. Even platform announcements are automated completely, there's no human available anymorre to do an annoucement. Not that those announcements are of any use, as they just mention there is a disruption and refer to the app to replan your journey. Which doesn't help as trains are usually cancelled last minute (so they don't need a human to reschedule it), resulting in alternative routes not being shown.
In case of an unplanned disruption there's often no staff for information about replacement buses. During planned disruptions there is a bunch of students "coordinating" the buses, but they aren't able to provide any usable information.
 

JonasB

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That's not only the case in Britain. Try finding a ticket office in Sweden, they are very rare. And recently the Stockholm commuter trains abolished the guards so now the driver is the only staff member on the train. Not a big problem for the normal traveller, but if you're in a wheelchair and need the ramp to get on and off the train, you now have to prebook assistance. Previously you just turned up and the guard helped you get on an off.
 

zero

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This summer at Leverkusen (NRW, Germany) there were replacement buses for travel to Cologne but 1) it was about 10 minutes walk to the correct bus stop and 2) the signage was so poor that I also had to help some Germans out, in German which was a bit of a challenge for all of us.

If you lived there it may have been easier but the people who asked me for help were, as it turned out, from near to Mönchengladbach :)
 

stuu

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We have a lot of platform staff compared to many other western European countries, as already mentioned. Especially on the London Underground, platform staff are very unusual on metros worldwide.
 

nwales58

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Britain is surprisingly good in quite a few areas, so we can look forward to the following, for instance:

Paying extra to use a ticket office.

Barriered stations with barriers in operation but no staff present (Cercanias in Spain, Netherlands). Great fun when your legitimate ticket fails to open the barriers and your language is poor so it takes ages for the chap on the other end of the intercom to understand and get the gate opened.

'Check-in' for long distance services with unnecessary queuing, a 2-minute cut-off (a French attitude to customers helps).

Reservations required for long distance services (though probably coming soon for the Curzon St-Old Oak novelty railway), enforced in the unnecessary pre-boarding queue.

Driver-only operation widespread on minor lines so no chance of asking staff what to do during disruption.

Delay compensation starting at 25% for 60 minute delays, 50% over 120 minutes (eg DB). Does anywhere else in Europe, apart from dedicated high speed lines, have compensation as generous as ours starting at 15 minutes?
 

Cloud Strife

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I once spent a warm, insect-infested and unpleasant hour at Otwock on the outskirts of Warsaw, with no platform display screen, no staff and no way to buy the mandatory reservation for any IC train.

Which is very much standard in Poland. I remember one winter about 10 years ago when the railways collapsed, and a friend ended up sleeping in a cold, unheated tiny station overnight because no-one knew anything. Many station buildings have now been closed down permanently with signalling and line renovations, meaning that there's often no information whatsoever about what's going on. Previously, many stations at least had someone on duty for signalling purposes, but now everything is handled remotely and help is simply not there.

It's quite standard for people to be turfed out in the middle of nowhere as well, with zero support or assistance provided. Another friend had an interesting situation where a locomotive failed in the middle of nowhere in winter at night. They had managed to limp to a station, which was really just nothing more than a platform, before being ordered to leave the train. The passengers rebelled (it was below 0 and clearly there was nowhere to go), and the staff tried to convince them that there would be replacement bus transport on offer. They still refused to leave, and it took several hours before they were rescued.

The staff on board simply refused to do anything once it became obvious that the train had failed, they simply locked themselves in their compartment and closed the curtains.
 

DanielB

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Delay compensation starting at 25% for 60 minute delays, 50% over 120 minutes (eg DB). Does anywhere else in Europe, apart from dedicated high speed lines, have compensation as generous as ours starting at 15 minutes?
Believe the scheme in the Netherlands is already quite generous in mainland Europe, starting at 30 minutes (50% repay) and with 100% repay of the single fare for over 60 minutes delay. It does start at 15 minutes delay for the IC Direct, which use the high speed line but currently only travel at 160 km/h.
Though it's NS only, so should you miss your hourly Arriva train due to a 5 minute delay at NS there is no delay repay at all.
 

rg177

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It is very much a mixed bag. Though, in cases of disruption, it is usually the case that nobody is around to help.

A couple of months back, I was on the outskirts of Würzburg when it became apparent that my train would be terminating for a RRB onwards. No info was given on board (just a short statement on the screens like "nicht Weiter nach Stuttgart Hbf") and that was your lot.

An older passenger took his anger out on the bus driver (who didn't even speak German - only limited English) and I was appointed as translator. It seemed he was angry as the line had been closed and nobody would tell him when it would reopen. I had to explain that neither myself nor the driver knew. This was common from my experience - when the line was closed, it was closed. And that was that!

In the end - I sprinted for the connecting train and made it. Everybody else had a 30+ minute wait.

Sometimes we don't seem so bad at disruption handling here!
 

shorebreeze

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Chicago rapid transit -- the L -- unfortunately showing a lot of UK characteristics. Conductors went away in about 1999 and result was less security on the trains and slower running speeds, as the driver now had to both run the train and open and close doors; for example a 22 minute run from Addison to 35th street (connecting the city's two baseball teams) went up to 24. And while stations all still have an attendant or two, they don't sell tickets -- those must be purchased from vending machines or online. But the commuter/regional rail is still pretty well staffed on the trains, although a lot of stations are unstaffed. The Class 1 railroads -- basically the major freight companies and Amtrak -- I believe are still required to have a driver and co-driver; on the freights, the co-driver does double duty as a conductor. Note that US fares tend to be cheap but service tends to be less frequent.
 

U-Bahnfreund

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Delay compensation starting at 25% for 60 minute delays, 50% over 120 minutes (eg DB). Does anywhere else in Europe, apart from dedicated high speed lines, have compensation as generous as ours starting at 15 minutes?
Hesse has generous rules: 100% back from 5 minutes in Northern Hesse, and from 10 minutes you get some amount (couldn't find a percentage) back in southern Hesse (RMV). Not applicable to tickets not sold by them (especially Deutschlandtickets from elsewhere) though.
 

jamesontheroad

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In the screen "Customise your journey", which appears after you've clicked on the ">" button on their homepage, there's a field "Enter code" at the top left. Entering RAIL23 there results in a discount.

That's not only the case in Britain. Try finding a ticket office in Sweden, they are very rare. And recently the Stockholm commuter trains abolished the guards so now the driver is the only staff member on the train. Not a big problem for the normal traveller, but if you're in a wheelchair and need the ramp to get on and off the train, you now have to prebook assistance. Previously you just turned up and the guard helped you get on an off.

Swedish Railways SJ have no ticket offices at all anymore

Sweden is an interesting comparison, because the country has had a very concerted national strategy of digitalisation since the late 1990s. There are no ticket offices and few ticket machines because everyone buys tickets on the phones or computers. So stations are consequently mostly unstaffed.

However, the much stronger rights of employees to negotiate good working conditions means that (apart from @JonasB’s example of Stockholm) most trains have two employees and the conductor is normally provided with a dedicated office or rest space - not just access to the rear cab. On the 2 carriage Norrtåg EMU that takes me to work most days the guard has an office with a door, comfortable chair, desk, microwave and fridge. That use of potentially profitable passenger space would never be tolerated by UK operators, but here is an unquestionable right of the conductor to have a segregated rest space in their working environment.
 

GardenRail

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Just been visiting the states for a week around New York and made me realise just how much destaffing has eroded public transport in Britain. They even have conductors on their subway trains!

Is it the same in other countries? And why are we so obsessed with decimating employee numbers especially on the railways and customer service on the metro services??
It's not just the UK. Germany is shocking on the U Bahns and S Bahns. London is actually very good in comparison, staff can still be found on a lot of the stations.
 

Richard Scott

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It's not just the UK. Germany is shocking on the U Bahns and S Bahns. London is actually very good in comparison, staff can still be found on a lot of the stations.
Also try finding any staff on Paris Metro or RER, also similar in Lisbon on local trains. If your ticket doesn't work on barrier you're sunk. Had a mainline service arrive at suburban platforms in Paris Est, only way out was to follow closely behind someone else.
 

railfan99

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Britain is surprisingly good in quite a few areas, so we can look forward to the following, for instance:

Barriered stations with barriers in operation but no staff present (Cercanias in Spain, Netherlands). Great fun when your legitimate ticket fails to open the barriers and your language is poor so it takes ages for the chap on the other end of the intercom to understand and get the gate opened.

Yes, in October 2022, my wife and I had this problem at Nice, France for a few minutes in the early morning, as we had paper Global Eurailpasses.

Eventually I located a staff member. Thank goodness we'd had a significant buffer for our train to Ventimiglia.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

on And recently the Stockholm commuter trains abolished the guards so now the driver is the only staff member on the train. Not a big problem for the normal traveller, but if you're in a wheelchair and need the ramp to get on and off the train, you now have to prebook assistance. Previously you just turned up and the guard helped you get on an off.

In Melbourne, Australia, the driver (DOO on suburban trains since c.1990) does this.

Why can't the Swedes stipulate 'board by the front door' for wheelchair users and have 'drive' do it?"
 

SCDR_WMR

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, but here is an unquestionable right of the conductor to have a segregated rest space in their working environment.
And that's probably the point - not many TOCs in the UK have breaks on trains and therefore don't have break facilities.

At my TOC we have no such on board facilities on any of our stock, and so breaks have to be at staff facilities in stations which have the items you mention.
 

dutchflyer

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The region of Scandinavia has always been-high wages, wide empty areas between the main cities- where de-staffing was very much notable. Whereas it is right that SJ itself has no own ticket counters anymore-and even the last ticketmachines are gone or soon about to-all regions have their own local transport (verbund style) and these nearly always maintain some office where they may still also sell longer distance traintickets. Also it was the case-unsure if it still is- that the very much everywhere present small convenience stores (like 7-11, in SE its Pressbyran-where they once sold newspapers!) could sell train tickets-as they also do lottery, stamps or whatever, from their candoall computer terminals. Likely a service fee was added. Or perhaps the challenge to find the right one was too big for the usual very young teenage studentsy part-time workers for some pocket money.
OTOH staffing levels are quite often subject of labour unions demands-very much with us in NL. Most -even though they proclaim to be new style swinging modern ´companies´- train operators are still much old-style state owned entities where those unions tend to be at their strongest. IMHO nasty result is also their tendency to lay on a strike to put demand. Thats why the other non-NS operators can do trains without guard/conductor-same for many regions in Germany.
In PL-when they split PKP into the IC (then mostly still Posp-ieszny=´fast´) and local=now PolRegio, the intention-very low levels of demand then with prospect of even less to come-was to make the regional trains as buses: pay on board to conductor-thus de-staff all remaining stops-and dozens of empty vandalised/ruined old buildings still there. It has however never reached that stage and PR-and even more for the many split-off local regions- maintain staffed stations. And every here&there the local city or region has even started to renovate and reinstate the stations, perhaps for other local goals, like library or post-office.
But this is all about ticketing etc-the assistence of pax after a mishap is quite another thing. If this was unexpected I still have after some 50+ years of train travel to see that it then goes without much trouble.
 

lxfe_mxtterz

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I visited Japan rather recently, and one of the things which struck me about their rail network (aside from how clean and high-specification all of their trains are) was how staffed everything was.

Most metro-style commuter lines in the cities had conductors onboard - in fact during my two weeks there, in which I must've travelled on around 70 trains across various different regions, I only encountered one "conductorless" train which was a little EMU which pootled along the rural coast in Hiroshima Prefecture.

On one rural line in Yamagata Prefecture, the two-car train I was travelling on appeared to have three conductors onboard. I'm unsure of the reason for this - perhaps training purposes - although it certainly wasn't uncommon for trains to have two, three, even four, members of staff onboard at once.

On the Tokaido Shinkansen, it seemed as though they had employed staff solely to hand out wet towels to passengers. I'm sure they have other duties (?) but from the perspective of a seated passenger, that was all they appeared to do - and then you had the catering staff and every so often a different member of staff would walk through with a bin bag.

Many of the stations in the smaller towns and villages I visited also had manned ticket offices until quite late in the evening - certainly very different from the "peak-hours only ticket offices" at most smaller stations we have over here.
 
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Cloud Strife

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PR-and even more for the many split-off local regions- maintain staffed stations

A few of these stations are now being run by local governments after government-funded renovation, but still, many of them don't actually sell tickets. Koleje Dolnośląskie only sell tickets at 8 stations, with around 30 stations having vending machines. Between Jelcz-Laskowice and Wrocław, there are only four ticket machines and two staffed stations.

PolRegio are steadily closing down all their own ticket offices this year, and PKP Intercity are steadily reducing the amount of ticket offices outside of major cities as well.
 

stuu

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I visited Japan rather recently, and one of the things which struck me about their rail network (aside from how clean and high-specification all of their trains are) was how staffed everything was.

here.
Japan has a lot of underemployment, there are many people basically paid to do very little that could easily be combined with other roles. Japan's labour productivity in the last couple of decades makes the UK look good
 

DMckduck

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I visited Japan rather recently, and one of the things which struck me about their rail network (aside from how clean and high-specification all of their trains are) was how staffed everything was.

Most metro-style commuter lines in the cities had conductors onboard - in fact during my two weeks there, in which I must've travelled on around 70 trains across various different regions, I only encountered one "conductorless" train which was a little EMU which pootled along the rural coast in Hiroshima Prefecture.

On one rural line in Yamagata Prefecture, the two-car train I was travelling on appeared to have three conductors onboard. I'm unsure of the reason for this - perhaps training purposes - although it certainly wasn't uncommon for trains to have two, three, even four, members of staff onboard at once.

On the Tokaido Shinkansen, it seemed as though they had employed staff solely to hand out wet towels to passengers. I'm sure they have other duties (?) but from the perspective of a seated passenger, that was all they appeared to do - and then you had the catering staff and every so often a different member of staff would walk through with a bin bag.

Many of the stations in the smaller towns and villages I visited also had manned ticket offices until quite late in the evening - certainly very different from the "peak-hours only ticket offices" at most smaller stations we have over here.
Most of the western world could learn a thing or two from Japan, but then I suppose they had a lot of money to spend post war on infrastructure
 

Geeves

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I suspect Japan will remain the outliers to de- staffing, as has been mentioned even the metros with platform barriers have station staff, guards and of course drivers.

At the other end of the scale Nürnberg Ubahn seemed to have zero staff anywhere, even the trains had no drivers. I didn't see a single uniformed person anywhere! All stations completely staffless
 

Falcon1200

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I think the UK railways is massively understaffed as is and needs significant staffing budgeting,

Then the question must be asked, who would pay for the increased staffing costs; Higher fares, or more Government, ie taxpayer, subsidy? The latter of course being in direct competition with every other demand on the Government budget.
 

Bletchleyite

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I suspect Japan will remain the outliers to de- staffing, as has been mentioned even the metros with platform barriers have station staff, guards and of course drivers.

At the other end of the scale Nürnberg Ubahn seemed to have zero staff anywhere, even the trains had no drivers. I didn't see a single uniformed person anywhere! All stations completely staffless

German urban networks are and long have been very low staff. Unlike the UK they don't require by law staff to be present in underground stations so there are usually none at all.

Platform dispatchers at busy stations were the last vestige of it but were being phased out in favour of camera based DOO in the late 90s/early 2000s, at least in Hamburg, though there may be the odd few left.
 
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