Details taken because I didn't pay the fare

[alexkonusa]

Hi there, Today I boarded the train without a ticket because I was late and didn't have the time to purchase the ticket otherwise I would be Late to College. The journey is only 7 minutes.

Ticket Man came across and asked for my ticket, there for I have explained my situation and handed my credit card over but he just got his note pad out and asked me to put my details.The first inspector handed the credit card back to me, while the second inspector came by and said he will deal with me. Well that lead him grabbing my credit card of my hand. I have asked for my credit card back he refused, his answer was "Put the details down and you will get your credit card back" after arguing with him he gave me my credit card back, but then another man come over and grabs my credit card without my permission forcing me to put my details on the paper, I refused because he took my credit card and forced me to do it. After arguing with him I wrote my name, address and dob. Only After that he handed my credit card back to me.

My question is what will happen next? Because I did not get any paper work, nor I had to sign something. Also I did not get told I could appeal against it within 21 days nor told that I could pay for the penalty on the spot.

 

[trentside]

What was the journey? It helps us to offer appropriate advice if we know which train operating company we are dealing with.

 

[bb21]

More details will be needed in order to answer any question. For example, what ticketing facilities are available at the station you started your journey? (If you don't know then just say what station it was.) What time did you start your journey? I assume early morning as you mentioned college but how early? Where were you travelling to and/or which train company was it?

 

[island]

Whilst it may have been inappropriate for the authorised officer to retain your card, it is a criminal offence to fail to buy a ticket before joining the train where facilities are provided, or to fail to give your name and address to an authorised officer who has a reasonable belief that you have committed an offence under the railway Byelaws.

The authorised officer is not under any obligation to give you any copies of any paperwork, nor to offer you a Penalty Fare Notice.

You will receive a letter in the post with details of the next action the Train Operating Company proposes to take.

 

[alexkonusa]

More details will be needed in order to answer any question. For example, what ticketing facilities are available at the station you started your journey? (If you don't know then just say what station it was.) What time did you start your journey? I assume early morning as you mentioned college but how early? Where were you travelling to and/or which train company was it?

it was from Par to St Austell. No the window was closed as I only arrived at the train station when the train has arrived. My question is, will I get a court letter or will it be a letter asking for me to pay the fine ?

What was the journey? It helps us to offer appropriate advice if we know which train operating company we are dealing with.

It was the first great western.

Whilst it may have been inappropriate for the authorised officer to retain your card, it is a criminal offence to fail to buy a ticket before joining the train where facilities are provided, or to fail to give your name and address to an authorised officer who has a reasonable belief that you have committed an offence under the railway Byelaws.

The authorised officer is not under any obligation to give you any copies of any paperwork, nor to offer you a Penalty Fare Notice.

You will receive a letter in the post with details of the next action the Train Operating Company proposes to take.

I have only refused to give my details when the officer said "I will only give your credit card back when I have your details."

 

[222007]

Agree more details are needed to be able to offer good advice. Different TOC's deal with things differently so without some more info would be hard to advise. However i would say DONT dodge the fare and ensure you arrive at your starting station with enough time to purchase a ticket. I would be late for college is not a valid excuse.

 

[yorkie]

it was from Par to St Austell.

There must be more to this.

Are you a regular passenger? Are you known for avoiding buying a ticket? Or is your debit/credit card marked as for 'online use' only or similar? Or is there something else you're not telling us?

No the window was closed as I only arrived at the train station when the train has arrived.

Did you mean to say the window was not closed? ie, the ticket office was open?

I have only refused to give my details when the officer said "I will only give your credit card back when I have your details."

Unfortunately it's a criminal offence to refuse to give your details.

 

[maniacmartin]

It's quite rare for someone at college to hold a credit card (as opposed to a debit card), and I'm also pretty sure they can't be retained for this reason.

However, you also have a legal requirement to buy a ticket if there was an open ticket office or working ticket vending machine at your origin station. By law you must also disclose your name and address if staff have a reasonable suspicion that you tried to avoid paying the fare due (s.23 of the Railway Byelaws, and also mentioned in the Regulation of Railways Act).

 

[Greenback]

I've been to Par a few times and I'm sure that there is a TVM on the St Austell bound platform. However, I'm not sure how relevant this will be when the OP has admitted that they arrived too late to buy a ticket in any case.

 

[alexkonusa]

There must be more to this.

Are you a regular passenger? Are you known for avoiding buying a ticket? Or is your debit/credit card marked as for 'online use' only or similar? Or is there something else you're not telling us?


Did you mean to say the window was not closed? ie, the ticket office was open?


Unfortunately it's a criminal offence to refuse to give your details.

No this is the first time I don't buy a ticket(Although first time getting my details taken in three years of being on that route). I have been travelling on this route for 3 years now. I have always got a ticket at the station. I have few tickets from previous weeks that I have kept in my wallet.

Although I just want find out, will I get my fine though the post or will I get a court invite.

 

[alexkonusa]

It's quite rare for someone at college to hold a credit card (as opposed to a debit card), and I'm also pretty sure they can't be retained for this reason.

However, you also have a legal requirement to buy a ticket if there was an open ticket office or working ticket vending machine at your origin station. By law you must also disclose your name and address if staff have a reasonable suspicion that you tried to avoid paying the fare due (s.23 of the Railway Byelaws, and also mentioned in the Regulation of Railways Act).

Well I'm 18. Soon to be 19 just in two months. But yeah It was Debit Card.

 

[Llanigraham]

I've been to Par a few times and I'm sure that there is a TVM on the St Austell bound platform. However, I'm not sure how relevant this will be when the OP has admitted that they arrived too late to buy a ticket in any case.

Nationalrail web site shows a ticket machine at the top of the entrance ramp, just before the ticket window.

Something doesn't add up here!

 

[alexkonusa]

Nationalrail web site shows a ticket machine at the top of the entrance ramp, just before the ticket window.

Something doesn't add up here!

Thats correct, but I did get to the train station as the train arrived, wouldn't have enough time to purchase a ticket with my card from the machine and board the train.

 

[Class377]

Thats correct, but I did get to the train station as the train arrived, wouldn't have enough time to purchase a ticket with my card from the machine and board the train.

Arriving late is not an excuse. You are expected to arrive at the station in reasonable time to purchase a ticket (where facilities exist, which they do at Par) before catching the train. If this were not the case, fare dodgers would always turn up at the station at the last minute and have a ready-made excuse not to buy a ticket.

I suspect the arguing with staff failed the attitude test and, if FGW want to, it's an open-and-shut byelaw case. This would result in a fine but would not be recordable and so you wouldn't have a criminal record.

 

[alexkonusa]

Arriving late is not an excuse. You are expected to arrive at the station in reasonable time to purchase a ticket (where facilities exist, which they do at Par) before catching the train. If this were not the case, fare dodgers would always turn up at the station at the last minute and have a ready-made excuse not to buy a ticket.

I suspect the arguing with staff failed the attitude test and, if FGW want to, it's an open-and-shut byelaw case. This would result in a fine but would not be recordable and so you wouldn't have a criminal record.

thank you as i understand i will get a letter home with the fine invoice. I do understand that i was wrong by refusing and not buying a ticket. The train inspector was really rude and that lead me to refuse on giving the details.

only thing that bothers me that he did not tell me anything nor asked where n from i was travelling

 

[NSEFAN]

I think all you can do now is wait for contact from FGW. That would determine what to do next. Being unable to present a valid ticket when requested is a byelaw offence, so FGW may well indeed try for a prosecution. You may be able to settle out of court, but this would require a very apologetic response from you to them and a willingness to pay for any admin charges, etc. The chances of settling out of court are higher if this is the first time that this kind of incident has happened to you.

 

[Temple Meads]

The train inspector was really rude and that lead me to refuse on giving the details.

In what way was the 'train inspector' rude?

 

[alexkonusa]

In what way was the 'train inspector' rude?

grabbed my bank card from my hand without my permission and refused to give it back.

 

[Llanigraham]

thank you as i understand i will get a letter home with the fine invoice. I do understand that i was wrong by refusing and not buying a ticket. The train inspector was really rude and that lead me to refuse on giving the details.

only thing that bothers me that he did not tell me anything nor asked where n from i was travelling

1/ You have not been fined, as you have not been to Court. What you may get is an invoice for your UNPAID fare. You could also be taken to Court

2/ A common comment that they were rude, but you were in the wrong and they were legally allowed to ask for your details.

3/ Immaterial, they only needed to know you hadn't bothered to buy a ticket.

4/ Perhaps you need to plan your day a bit better and leave yourself more time to get to College in future. It is part of the process of growing up and taking responsibility. As is buying a train ticket!

 

[Bletchleyite]

grabbed my bank card from my hand without my permission and refused to give it back.

Quite apart from the rest of proceedings (which that will not affect), if you felt aggrieved about that (and it does sound inappropriate) I would suggest separately registering a formal complaint about it. An inspector is certainly not allowed to confiscate personal property in that manner.

That said, all you will get is an apology (if anything).

Neil

 

[SWTCommuter]

In what way was the 'train inspector' rude?

grabbed my bank card from my hand without my permission and refused to give it back.

Did he grab your card or did you hand it over?

Ticket Man came across and asked for my ticket, there for I have explained my situation and handed my credit card over

 

[alexkonusa]

Did he grab your card or did you hand it over?

There was two inspectors, I handed over my card to one of the inspectors with words i'm willing to pay for the ticket and the fine. He looked it and handed it over, while the second inspector came over and said he will deal with it. Well the second Inspector grabbed the card. I do Apologise as im in college right now, its real hard to spend half hour writing everything that has happened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was two inspectors, I handed over my card to one of the inspectors with words im willing to pay for the ticket and the fine. He looked it and handed it over, while the second inspector came over and said he will deal with it. Well the second Inspector grabbed the card.

The first inspector returned it to you, and the second grabbed it from your hand?

Neil

 

[alexkonusa]

The first inspector returned it to you, and the second grabbed it from your hand?

Neil

Yes. Thats correct, I was holding it in my hand, suddenly second inspector just out of nowhere grabs the credit card and refuses to give it back until i write my details.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. Thats correct, I was holding it in my hand, suddenly second inspector just out of nowhere grabs the credit card and refuses to give it back until i write my details.

While as I say it will in no way affect what happens to you (two wrongs, after all, do not make a right), I would certainly complain about that, as it's bordering on an alleged assault if what you say is exactly what occurred.

Neil

 

[alexkonusa]

While as I say it will in no way affect what happens to you (two wrongs, after all, do not make a right), I would certainly complain about that, as it's bordering on an alleged assault if what you say is exactly what occurred.

Neil

I have also have a witness, a friend of mine was on the train. He has seen what has happened. Would reporting this in anyway affect if my case gets taken to court ?

 

[island]

I have also have a witness, a friend of mine was on the train. He has seen what has happened. Would reporting this in anyway affect if my case gets taken to court ?

It is not likely to. We regularly get cases of people alleging misconduct of some sort by Train Operating Company staff. Expecting that it will "muddy the waters" enough to get you off the criminal offence you've committed is naive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have also have a witness, a friend of mine was on the train. He has seen what has happened. Would reporting this in anyway affect if my case gets taken to court ?

I wouldn't have thought so, as it doesn't affect (a) what crime you have committed, nor (b) their chances of prosecuting it.

Neil

 

[Flamingo]

It sounds open and shut, and all the injured indignation over the rude man is probably because the rude man found a way to get the details out of a fare-evader who did not want to give them knowing their stop was only a few minutes off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It sounds open and shut, and all the injured indignation over the rude man is probably because the rude man found a way to get the details out of a fare-evader who did not want to give them knowing their stop was only a few minutes off.

I would imagine so, which is one reason it will not in my view (and should not) affect the OP's prosecution.

However, it is not on for members of railway staff to grab passengers' possessions from their hand for any reason, and in my view a complaint should still be made with a view to disciplinary action being taken against that member of staff, if that is indeed what occurred (and on most trains these days it will be easy to prove if it did or not via CCTV).

Perhaps the staff could have done this another way, e.g. asked the driver/guard not to release the doors at the station until such time as details were provided. That might well have caused passenger action to ensure that the details were provided without the staff needing to take such action

Neil