Deviation from route (was: change of route)

[London_123]

Hi,

I wonder if someone could explain the rules about buying an excess on ticket as I've had very mixed experiences. The journeys in question are:

1)Return leg of off peak return London Terminals to Worthing. Often I have wanted to return to Richmond instead, when I ask the train guard on the return if I can do this I have sometimes been told yes and an excess ticket was issued (I think it was free) or no i have to buy a new ticket from Clapham Junction.

2) Off peak return from East Dulwich to Porthmadog, I tried at 3 ticket desks to excess the outward part to Blaenau Ffestiniog, first 2 said I couldn't and my ticket wasn't valid and I needed to buy 2 singles, the 3rd (at Euston Station) did it with no problem for a few pounds.

3) Off peak return London to Harrogate, on the return leg I wanted to travel back from Hull to London (I had travelled Harrogate to Hull by car). I asked the ticket office the day before my return at Hull if I could and they said no, it even took me a while to convince them I could just buy a single to Doncaster and not have to buy a new single to London as they wanted. However previously I have been able to excess an off peak return from London to Hull to travel back from Harrogate instead for a few pounds.

As you can see I have sometimes I have been 'lucky' and sometimes 'unlucky' however I don't want luck to have anything to do with it! Can anyone explain what is allowed, and how to explain this to a guard/ ticket office clerk?

Many thanks for your help,

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You may get different answers depending on who you ask. It is an unfortunate side effect of some staff not reading the manuals or not being made aware of excesses or the changes that affect them. It should be noted that there is a difference between an 'off route' excess and 'deviation off route to a new destination'. Where the excess is sought before travel:

'Deviation off route to a new destination' should be a new ticket to/from the point at which the ticket held is valid, unless it is an advance fare (where an excess can be issued with an admin fee).

'Off route' should be an excess to a ticket valid by that route (the origin and/or destination must remain the same) unless no through fare exists (when a ticket to cover the part of the journey not covered by the ticket held should be issued).

Ticket office staff can look this up in the FRPP/The Manual, in the excess fares section (travel where there was no opportunity to buy before boarding a train). I think guards would have to phone their control (but they do tend to be better at excesses anyway).

 

[LexyBoy]

As hairyhandedfool says, tickets can be excessed for change of route (which means just that - the route is changed but not the origin or destination), and for "overdistance" - travel to a station beyond the original destination, but still covering all of the original route.

A London-Birmingham route High Wycombe ticket could be excessed to route Any Permitted for example, or could be excessed to a end at a station beyond Birmingham or start at a station before London, but couldn't be changed to a London-Southampton ticket for example.

Your examples 2 and 3 don't fall into either of these categories. Example 1 would be an overdistance excess as travel is onwards from the original destination. Bear in mind that the ticketing systems are capable of doing many things which are not supposed to be done (and can also make it hard to do things which are perfectly valid!) - I wouldn't complain at being "lucky" in the case of getting your excess to Blaenau!

'Deviation off route to a new destination' should be a new ticket to/from the point at which the ticket held is valid, unless it is an advance fare (where an excess can be issued with an admin fee).

I thought the origin and destination on Advances always had to remain the same if any amendments were made?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Only writing it as the FRPP states.

All three examples look like deviation to me, not over-distance.

 

[LexyBoy]

Only writing it as the FRPP states.

All three examples look like deviation to me, not over-distance.

Fair enough, just looked odd to me. Maybe I'm missing something from the context.

An "Any Permitted" Worthing-Richmond ticket is valid via London which is why I thought it could be considered an overdistance rather than deviation from route. The fares do differ though, so I'm not sure why it would have been a zero fare excess (unless the fares were the same in the past).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Fair enough, just looked odd to me. Maybe I'm missing something from the context.

It is odd as the FRPP does indeed say that you can't change the origin or destination in the restrictions for a change of travel plans, but I think this could be an easement as you can't just buy a ticket for the part of the journey not covered when you have an Advance fare.

An "Any Permitted" Worthing-Richmond ticket is valid via London which is why I thought it could be considered an overdistance rather than deviation from route. The fares do differ though, so I'm not sure why it would have been a zero fare excess (unless the fares were the same in the past).

Well, if you went via London (say, via London Bridge for arguments sake) it could be 'overdistance', but if you go via Clapham (not London) then it would be 'deviation' as you haven't reached London.

 

[bb21]

Worthing - Richmond is Over-Distance however I believe that the excess needs to be to the Route +Any Permitted fare and not the Route Not London fare, which is what the guard probably did, yielding a zero excess.

Edit: I see that HHF is saying the same thing.

@OP. I will send you a PM in about 20 minutes.