DfT press release on Northern Powerhouse Rail

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was there not talk of a new terminal building at Manchester Airport?

There was talk of a tram extension to the HS2 station, but never properly defined.
A local solution would hopefully try and link existing railways via the airport (HS2 wasn't interested).

 

[GJMarshy]

There was talk of a tram extension to the HS2 station, but never properly defined.
A local solution would hopefully try and link existing railways via the airport (HS2 wasn't interested).

Frustratingly for the Manchester authorities the Airport station would have to be funded by MAG and GMCA, since the DfT refused to fund it. Assuming 2b eventually gets built here has to be a station there, otherwise it'd fail to serve the South Manchester/North Cheshire market much of who'm already commute/travel recently to London especially. The airport station is less about serving the airport itself, but serving as a parkway for the surrounding area.

Metrolink plans have always been to complete the "wythenshawe loop" which either way would necessitate crossing the pat of the HS2 station, and so I highly doubt if it were build Metrolink wouldn't be there to complement it. It'd put the station within easy reach of the dense parts of South Manchester like Didsbury, Chorlton etc, which would take great pressure of Piccadilly and trams through the city centre to reach it.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Business cases become irrelevant if something has enough political backing.

I have said it a few times on this forum -everything is possible but needs 3 things:
1) Time
2) Money
3) Political will

 

[may032]

I'm wondering if there's actually any need for both Northern Powerhouse Rail and the TRU

I imagine many of our penny pinching politicians will also wonder this, however TRU addresses less than half the problem, mainly between Hudds and Leeds.

 

[BrianW]

Corrected that for you, as Warrington is unfortunately "off route" for the existing main through line. As NPR is an unrealistic prospect for the foreseeable future, such a service needs to go via Victoria, Manchester's principal through station for east-west traffic.

I guess that's your prerogative. A simple use of Google Earth suggests a line fairly direct Liverpool to Manchester (Picc or Vic), looping a bit through Warrington- a possible interchange North of Bank Quay, West of Central (maybe a West Central -WC??) or Shuttle People Mover BQ-Central? Doesn't seem to simple me to be impossible- apart from real world capacity etc constraints!! I guess £12Bn doesn't go far!

 

[Trainman40083]

I guess that's your prerogative. A simple use of Google Earth suggests a line fairly direct Liverpool to Manchester (Picc or Vic), looping a bit through Warrington- a possible interchange North of Bank Quay, West of Central (maybe a West Central -WC??) or Shuttle People Mover BQ-Central? Doesn't seem to simple me to be impossible- apart from real world capacity etc constraints!! I guess £12Bn doesn't go far!

I would think most of that £12bn would be for the tunnel section where it dives down east of Warrington through Manchester Airport and to Piccadilly. I guess there will be provision for the eventual HS2 line in there too. If only we knew the need around 2040..

 

[BrianW]

There was talk of a tram extension to the HS2 station, but never properly defined.
A local solution would hopefully try and link existing railways via the airport (HS2 wasn't interested).

For years Heathrow Airport was reached from London terminals by a pathetic all-stations Piccadilly Line to Hounslow West (40 mins from Piccadilly Circus) or Airline bus from designated Terminals in Cromwell Road or Victoria. Manchester Airport has what is almost a shuttle service of trains from Manchester Piccadilly taking 13-21 minutes; hardly long enough to be concerned to get sat down- indeed the opportunity to stretch your legs might be valued!! HS2 rejected the possibility of serving the much more popular Heathrow, favouring Old Oak Common instead (Acton Main Line- Heathrow currently approx 21-27 mins). Keep it simple. There's already a Manchester Airport Station and its well-served. Leave well alone.

 

[Krokodil]

For years Heathrow Airport was reached from London terminals by a pathetic all-stations Piccadilly Line to Hounslow West (40 mins from Piccadilly Circus) or Airline bus from designated Terminals in Cromwell Road or Victoria. Manchester Airport has what is almost a shuttle service of trains from Manchester Piccadilly taking 13-21 minutes; hardly long enough to be concerned to get sat down- indeed the opportunity to stretch your legs might be valued!! HS2 rejected the possibility of serving the much more popular Heathrow, favouring Old Oak Common instead (Acton Main Line- Heathrow currently approx 21-27 mins). Keep it simple. There's already a Manchester Airport Station and its well-served. Leave well alone.

As others have said, the proposed airport station is more of a South Manchester Parkway.

 

[AlastairFraser]

HS2 rejected the possibility of serving the much more popular Heathrow, favouring Old Oak Common instead (Acton Main Line- Heathrow currently approx 21-27 mins).

This is where you are wrong - Old Oak Common station will have Heathrow Express stopping, which will be about 10 mins to Heathrow Central station.
Manchester Airport HS2 station will be about 5-10 mins away from the airport proper by Metrolink.

 

[BrianW]

This is where you are wrong - Old Oak Common station will have Heathrow Express stopping, which will be about 10 mins to Heathrow Central station.
Manchester Airport HS2 station will be about 5-10 mins away from the airport proper by Metrolink.

Indeed- OOC will provide the link from HS2 to Heathrow. There will be no HS2 to provide a Manchester Airport Stn, and I contend no such station is needed, as a short link is provided from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport. IIUC few (1 tph?) trains currently reach Manchester Airport Station from the South, the vast majority coming from Piccadilly- does that say anything about need/demand, or is the current Airport stn full to capacity and/or there is unmet demand? My posting may have been unclear, but my mind is not- there is no need for another Manchester Airport station- if a South Manchester Parkway station is a no-brainer let it's case be substantiated as that, as per Bristol Parkway. Sorry if I am talking out of my hat.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Indeed- OOC will provide the link from HS2 to Heathrow. There will be no HS2 to provide a Manchester Airport Stn, and I contend no such station is needed, as a short link is provided from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport. IIUC few (1 tph?) trains currently reach Manchester Airport Station from the South, the vast majority coming from Piccadilly- does that say anything about need/demand, or is the current Airport stn full to capacity and/or there is unmet demand? My posting may have been unclear, but my mind is not- there is no need for another Manchester Airport station- if a South Manchester Parkway station is a no-brainer let it's case be substantiated as that, as per Bristol Parkway. Sorry if I am talking out of my hat.

There will be no HS2 initially - the Burnham/Street plan may effectively resurrect that section.
As for the adequacy of the existing railway, it is very much overcrowded, so a partial replacement is needed whether that be part of a HSR tunnel or a metro or an express tram.

As others have said, demand for Southbound departures will likely come from South/West/East Manchester and north Cheshire residents, it would have very convenient access from the motorway, and the current Manchester airport station (which will be linked by tram to the HS2 station, if built) has a massive bus interchange with buses and coaches from all over the North West region, plus the extensive tram links (and local rail links that are constrained by the current set up).

Have a look at the breadth of bus connections on offer at the Airport bus station here: https://bustimes.org/localities/manchester-airport

 

[The Ham]

This is assuming that those 11.5 coaches an hour are there principally to serve Exeter, as opposed to serving it on the way to somewhere else. Try doing the same calculation based on the number of carriages per hour between Micheldever and London!

That calculation was based on Manchester's population of 553,000. However let's look at the total population of Devon and Cornwall (1.4 million) vs the metro area of Manchester (2.8 million). That may look like it's much closer, however 0.5tph only goes to Exeter, and 0.5tph goes beyond Plymouth.

As such you're likely looking at an average population of maybe 0.75 million vs 2.8 million, so that's still 11.5 vs 36 coaches.

However, Exeter has trains via Bristol which leave later and arrive sooner, which I hadn't previously included for in the calculation, which Manchester doesn't have.

Nor have I allowed for the fact that some of the population of Devon is East of Exeter and on the WofE line which I had already removed from the coach calculation which I had already done on the previous one, but not accounted for above in the population numbers.

East Devon DC has a population of 144,000, even if you only account for 1/2 of that population going east rather than west to go to London then you end up with about the same 4.2 ratio between Exeter and Manchester.

 

[Nottingham59]

That calculation was based on Manchester's population of 553,000. However let's look at the total population of Devon and Cornwall (1.4 million) vs the metro area of Manchester (2.8 million). That may look like it's much closer, however 0.5tph only goes to Exeter, and 0.5tph goes beyond Plymouth.

As such you're likely looking at an average population of maybe 0.75 million vs 2.8 million, so that's still 11.5 vs 36 coaches.

However, Exeter has trains via Bristol which leave later and arrive sooner, which I hadn't previously included for in the calculation, which Manchester doesn't have.

Nor have I allowed for the fact that some of the population of Devon is East of Exeter and on the WofE line which I had already removed from the coach calculation which I had already done on the previous one, but not accounted for above in the population numbers.

East Devon DC has a population of 144,000, even if you only account for 1/2 of that population going east rather than west to go to London then you end up with about the same 4.2 ratio between Exeter and Manchester.

I find a good way to compare population centres like Exeter and Manchester is this satellite image taken at nighttime. The intensity of illumination suggests to me that the population and hence demand for travel to London from Manchester and its environs will be an order of magnitude greater than from Exeter.

Image from: https://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/78000/78674/london_lights_2012087_lrg.jpg

 

[AndrewE]

The intensity of illumination suggests to me that the population and hence demand for travel to London from Manchester and its environs will be an order of magnitude greater than from Exeter.

And there was me imagining that NPR was intended to improve travel across the North and bring economic activity back as a result of better communications up here, maybe it was even part of the levelling up agenda? What a fool I was!

If NPR works out as was intended it ought to decrease demand for journeys to London.

 

[Nottingham59]

And there was me imagining that NPR was intended to improve travel across the North and bring economic activity back as a result of better communications up here, maybe it was even part of the levelling up agenda?

I was addressing the Exeter / Manchester point.

Just looking at the map shows the potential agglomeration benefits of improved transport links across the whole Merseyside/Manchester/West Yorkshire metropolitan area. A transport system that allowed someone living in suburban Liverpool to access a job in central Leeds, and vice versa, would add considerably to the economy of both cities and everywhere between them.

And before people say that's a unfeasible distance to commute, I note that the centre of Liverpool to the centre of Leeds is just 64 miles, which is less than the 72 miles straight line distance from Peterborough station to Kings Cross.

 

[BrianW]

I was addressing the Exeter / Manchester point.

Just looking at the map shows the potential agglomeration benefits of improved transport links across the whole Merseyside/Manchester/West Yorkshire metropolitan area. A transport system that allowed someone living in suburban Liverpool to access a job in central Leeds, and vice versa, would add considerably to the economy of both cities and everywhere between them.

And before people say that's a unfeasible distance to commute, I note that the centre of Liverpool to the centre of Leeds is just 64 miles, which is less than the 72 miles straight line distance from Peterborough station to Kings Cross.

That linking of the Grreat Northern Cities was proposed by prophets back in the 1960s, if not before; but each city has promoted itself (and 'done down' its neighbours!), whil London has had a single voice since 1963 however much resisted by 'Luddite' NIMBYs and their pet Green belt. Commuters commute from the extremities of Chris Green's Network South East into London. 'The North' needs to hang in better together- a great Travel-to-Work area with towns and villages and hills and dales at hand too.

 

[Class 170101]

I'm wondering if there's actually any need for both Northern Powerhouse Rail and the TRU

Yes

TRU will get us to 2040 but will probably be full again and secondly but more importantly if you build more housing etc TRU will cope with the more local flows like Huddersfield to Stalybridge and Manchester and Huddersfield to Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield and other intermediate stations whilst NPR will serve Liverpool to Hull and Newcastle via Manchester, Bradford and Leeds whilst allowing TRU to cope with the local flows and not be shared with faster trains as it fill up.

 

[may032]

Yes

TRU will get us to 2040 but will probably be full again and secondly but more importantly if you build more housing etc TRU will cope with the more local flows like Huddersfield to Stalybridge and Manchester and Huddersfield to Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield and other intermediate stations whilst NPR will serve Liverpool to Hull and Newcastle via Manchester, Bradford and Leeds whilst allowing TRU to cope with the local flows and not be shared with faster trains as it fill up.

The need is legitimate but the failings of HS2 are likely to impact the political will for these large, grandiose projects. I expect an even more trimmed down NRP than shown in the IRP… piggybacking off of the TRU in the east, with more piecemeal upgrades in the west rather than a brand new intercity line.