Diagram and Allocation "Security"

[OffThePacer18]

Today I noticed that somebody had sent a message on twitter to East Midlands Railway asking for the diagram of a particular unit. They replied that for security reasons, they cannot make this information available.

At first this seemed to make sense, but I'm somewhat struggling to comprehend what the consequences could be of a master criminal knowing the diagram of a particular unit.
This raises a further question as to why the specific train that operates each service is not made available in the public domain. If somebody needs to know for any kind of sinister purpose (although I'm not sure what) they could simply visit a station and take the number of the train.

So what exactly is the issue they have with us being able to access this information?
Many apologies if my knowledge here is a little limited - I'm new to trainspotting!

 

[HA25322]

London Overground and Manchester Metrolink will pass on the info as I have asked them. I believe Virgin also do. I do however ask via direct message so that may make a difference? Or perhaps it's the new regime in charge that have decreed not to pass on gen?

 

[OffThePacer18]

London Overground and Manchester Metrolink will pass on the info as I have asked them. I believe Virgin also do. I do however ask via direct message so that may make a difference? Or perhaps it's the new regime in charge that have decreed not to pass on gen?

They did ask the person in question to DM them so presumably it does make a difference. However, I'm not sure what difference it makes as it could still be someone with sinister intentions sending them a DM and they could very easily circulate the information they receive.

 

[Freightmaster]

...what exactly is the issue they have with us being able to access this information?

Presumably because what might well start off with one person asking about
one diagram would inevitably and rapidly snowball into dozens of requests for
half the fleet several times a day once word got out that such info was being
made available!

So my guess is that they simply don't wan't their Twitter feed (including DMs) to be
constantly snowed under with spotting requests at the expense of genuine customer
enquires, so they use the excuse of 'security' to avoid having to sound rude.



MARK

 

[OffThePacer18]

Presumably because what might well start off with one person asking about
one diagram would inevitably and rapidly snowball into dozens of requests for
half the fleet several times a day once word got out that such info was being
made available!

So my guess is that they simply don't wan't their Twitter feed (including DMs) to be
constantly snowed under with spotting requests at the expense of genuine customer
enquires, so they use the excuse of 'security' to avoid having to sound rude.



MARK

That is a very reasonable suggestion in the case of Twitter. More widely, though, I presume there is another reason why only railway professionals can get access to allocations and its not available in the same way that the live train position etc... is. There must be plenty of enthusiasts who would love such a privilege.

 

[HA25322]

More widely, though, I presume there is another reason why only railway professionals can get access to allocations and its not available in the same way that the live train position etc... is. There must be plenty of enthusiasts who would love such a privilege.

I "can" get gen but I must admit that I cannot understand why allocations cannot be made public. Train times are within the public domain so why not the thing that is actually working that particular train?

 

[PHILIPE]

I've found that GWR and TFW are good at providing any information although one person on GWR Twitter did refuse a request once quoting not allowed due to confidentiality which I think the person may not have been up to speed with such queries.

 

[43074]

That is a very reasonable suggestion in the case of Twitter. More widely, though, I presume there is another reason why only railway professionals can get access to allocations and its not available in the same way that the live train position etc... is. There must be plenty of enthusiasts who would love such a privilege.

Because railway professionals often need such information in the course of their work (e.g. to know the whereabouts of a particular unit due an exam or refuelling etc) whereas enthusiasts might like to have this information but do not need it in the same way. At the end of the day there are more important things for railway people to do than supply numbers to spotters.

 

[OffThePacer18]

Because railway professionals often need such information in the course of their work (e.g. to know the whereabouts of a particular unit due an exam or refuelling etc) whereas enthusiasts might like to have this information but do not need it in the same way. At the end of the day there are more important things for railway people to do than supply numbers to spotters.

You're absolutely right - there's no reason for it to be any kind of priority. However there are websites, for example, that show the live location of planes and actually give the identity of the plane. The same with boats. I've absolutely no idea how difficult it would be, but could the information not be made available to developers of websites that show real time data in the same way things like the service code and timing load are?

 

[Llanigraham]

You're absolutely right - there's no reason for it to be any kind of priority. However there are websites, for example, that show the live location of planes and actually give the identity of the plane. The same with boats. I've absolutely no idea how difficult it would be, but could the information not be made available to developers of websites that show real time data in the same way things like the service code and timing load are?

The information about boats and planes is from the transponders fitted to them, not from info posted by their operators.

 

[OffThePacer18]

The information about boats and planes is from the transponders fitted to them, not from info posted by their operators.

That explains it - thanks

 

[Bantamzen]

Presumably because what might well start off with one person asking about
one diagram would inevitably and rapidly snowball into dozens of requests for
half the fleet several times a day once word got out that such info was being
made available!

So my guess is that they simply don't wan't their Twitter feed (including DMs) to be
constantly snowed under with spotting requests at the expense of genuine customer
enquires, so they use the excuse of 'security' to avoid having to sound rude.



MARK

Indeed, the social media teams of TOCs, and indeed many companies are there to answer quick, on the spot questions & assist passengers on their day to day journeys. They are not there to keep enthusiasts up to date on the whereabouts of every unit up and down the country. I think its only fair that enthusiasts understand that, and that forums like these are better places to field such queries, ask about the whereabouts of units, diagram formations etc.

 

[syorksdeano]

I seem to remember one individual that would set up random r twitter accounts just to ask for unit number from Northern (Reece think he was called). From what I can remember he annoyed quite a few TOC's asking the same question time and time again.

 

[PHILIPE]

I seem to remember one individual that would set up random r twitter accounts just to ask for unit number from Northern (Reece think he was called). From what I can remember he annoyed quite a few TOC's asking the same question time and time again.

He was blocked from many Accounts as soon as he was identified, which was easy, as he always asked questions relating to the North East but Northern Twitter didn't block him but rationed him to one a day. He pleads autism.

 

[DarloRich]

Presumably because what might well start off with one person asking about
one diagram would inevitably and rapidly snowball into dozens of requests for
half the fleet several times a day once word got out that such info was being
made available!

So my guess is that they simply don't wan't their Twitter feed (including DMs) to be
constantly snowed under with spotting requests at the expense of genuine customer
enquires, so they use the excuse of 'security' to avoid having to sound rude.
MARK

Because railway professionals often need such information in the course of their work (e.g. to know the whereabouts of a particular unit due an exam or refuelling etc) whereas enthusiasts might like to have this information but do not need it in the same way. At the end of the day there are more important things for railway people to do than supply numbers to spotters.

sensible - my approach would be: You want to write numbers down get out and look for them. Asking for information is cheating.

 

[Bikeman78]

I "can" get gen but I must admit that I cannot understand why allocations cannot be made public. Train times are within the public domain so why not the thing that is actually working that particular train?

In the Netherlands there are a few websites that will tell you exactly what type of train is working each service, e.g. https://treinposities.nl/vertrektijden/utrecht-centraal
You can do a line up for any station in the country and it gives allocations for the next few hours. You can look up allocation history going back weeks. It even tells you if the train is/was formed of something other than the planned rolling stock.

 

[TrainTube]

In the Netherlands there are a few websites that will tell you exactly what type of train is working each service, e.g. https://treinposities.nl/vertrektijden/utrecht-centraal
You can do a line up for any station in the country and it gives allocations for the next few hours. You can look up allocation history going back weeks. It even tells you if the train is/was formed of something other than the planned rolling stock.

Same for the Czech Republic.

 

[OffThePacer18]

This is the first time I've ever seen the specific Locomotive used specified on RTT...
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H04180/2020-02-27/detailed

 

[PHILIPE]

This is the first time I've ever seen the specific Locomotive used specified on RTT...
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H04180/2020-02-27/detailed

There is some discussion only this week here:-

ailforums.co.uk/threads/realtimetrains-website.189152/page-11