Diesel engines running all night

[kev1n]

Hi all, I'm new here and from a visit to Nottingham 2 weeks ago, I keep trying to make sense of what was going on at Nottingham Station and can't work it out, I'm hoping you guys (and gals) can put me out of my misery

So, I was travelling to Nottingham for a night out, I was planning on having a few drinks and playing Poker in Nottigham. I got a Northern train from Sheffield to Nottingham and was impressed at how modern the Northern train was! Last time I used one, it was literally a bus on rails and the train I was on was very modern, clean and much better than my previous experiences 10+ years ago!

I do travel a fair amount to London, but not so much "locally" and my weapon of choice is the LNER Azuma from Doncaster or Retford to London.

Anyways, I was in Nottingham, I did really well in the poker tournament and left much later than expected and ended up getting a coach back to Sheffield at 3am.

The coach stop is outside the train station in Nottingham, but I was astounded by the number of diesel engines idling all night long in the closed station! With the whole "Green push", Greta-fan-clubs and the "Green rail" images... surely leaving 5+ diesel engines idling ALL NIGHT is a complete joke?

If I were to do the same in my car or HGV I'd be in line for a fine or a day out to have a chat with my local magistrate.

Can anyone please point me in the right direction to understand why this is acceptable?

Thanks in advance, all opinions welcome

 

[DoubleO]

Someone else will know the area much better than me, but it's entirely possible there were units being shunted on and off the depot and in and around the station. Or, it could have been engineering trains if there was maintenance work being undertaken. Things often aren't as clear-cut as they seem.....

 

[Scott1]

At night the station is a bit of an extension to the depot. Trains are services and shunted in and out of the depot, fuel line etc. Some may also be serviced on the station. This is why the engine is left running.

 

[kev1n]

Trains are services and shunted in and out of the depot

Shunting is one thing, hours and hours of idling and wasting diesel is a joke!

 

[High Dyke]

From an environmental point of view the matter probably isn't all that au-fait. However, it's the railway and it likes wasting money... That said there may be a number of reason why the engines are running.

 

[Mintona]

Shunting is one thing, hours and hours of idling and wasting diesel is a joke!

Were you stood there watching for hours and hours then?

 

[vikingdriver]

Hi all, I'm new here and from a visit to Nottingham 2 weeks ago, I keep trying to make sense of what was going on at Nottingham Station and can't work it out, I'm hoping you guys (and gals) can put me out of my misery

So, I was travelling to Nottingham for a night out, I was planning on having a few drinks and playing Poker in Nottigham. I got a Northern train from Sheffield to Nottingham and was impressed at how modern the Northern train was! Last time I used one, it was literally a bus on rails and the train I was on was very modern, clean and much better than my previous experiences 10+ years ago!

I do travel a fair amount to London, but not so much "locally" and my weapon of choice is the LNER Azuma from Doncaster or Retford to London.

Anyways, I was in Nottingham, I did really well in the poker tournament and left much later than expected and ended up getting a coach back to Sheffield at 3am.

The coach stop is outside the train station in Nottingham, but I was astounded by the number of diesel engines idling all night long in the closed station! With the whole "Green push", Greta-fan-clubs and the "Green rail" images... surely leaving 5+ diesel engines idling ALL NIGHT is a complete joke?

If I were to do the same in my car or HGV I'd be in line for a fine or a day out to have a chat with my local magistrate.

Can anyone please point me in the right direction to understand why this is acceptable?

Thanks in advance, all opinions welcome

How do you know that they were running all night?

 

[seagull]

If you want a sensible answer then it's best not to exaggerate in the first place. If you left at 3 a.m then you weren't at Nottingham ALL NIGHT, but in addition if the poker tournament finished very late and you therefore missed the 00.45 coach, at the most you were stood at the coach station for a couple of hours.

There may even be reasons why they would run all night but there are many more reasons that might explain an hour or two.

 

[Annetts key]

I don’t know the area, but if the trains were waiting on running lines (main line/passenger line/platform line or a line directly connecting to one of these where there is no points to trap a runaway movement) to shunt, the engines have to be left running in order to maintain the air pressure for the braking systems.

When a train is stabled in a depot or siding, then hand brakes, or other measures to prevent runaways can be taken. These are not practical when a train is held on a running line.

Also what was the weather like? Engines are also run to maintain the lighting, heating and air conditioning so that the train is ready for the next booked service. This may include the time required for the cleaning team to clean the interior of the train. Especially if that area has very early morning services or a night train service.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember an American railwayman telling me that in cold weather in the USA they usually keep locos ticking-over all night in case they can't start them in the morning.

 

[hooverboy]

Someone else will know the area much better than me, but it's entirely possible there were units being shunted on and off the depot and in and around the station. Or, it could have been engineering trains if there was maintenance work being undertaken. Things often aren't as clear-cut as they seem.....

The older generation engines don't take at all kindly to start/stop operation.
To put it bluntly, their fuel injection systems were quite cutting edge at the time they were designed, but very primitive by modern standards, so would be prone to valves+ delivery systems getting clogged.
Hence long periods of idling.

it used to be worse on naturally aspirated engines,usually manifesting in huge black clouds of clag,if the engine had not been in use for a few days.

 

[6Gman]

From an environmental point of view the matter probably isn't all that au-fait. However, it's the railway and it likes wasting money... That said there may be a number of reason why the engines are running.

If there are reasons for doing it why would it be wasting money?

 

[Carlisle]

if the trains were waiting on running lines (main line/passenger line/platform line or a line directly connecting to one of these where there is no points to trap a runaway movement) to shunt, the engines have to be left running in order to maintain the air pressure for the braking systems.

True, the Lac Megantic disaster is a reminder of ignoring the above .

 

[tomuk]

I don’t know the area, but if the trains were waiting on running lines (main line/passenger line/platform line or a line directly connecting to one of these where there is no points to trap a runaway movement) to shunt, the engines have to be left running in order to maintain the air pressure for the braking systems.

On Sprinters\DMUs they don't you need air. The handbrake is spring loaded and you need to keep air in the system to release it.

 

[hooverboy]

On Sprinters\DMUs they don't you need air. The handbrake is spring loaded and you need to keep air in the system to release it.

good point about the compressors,but they don't take that long to charge up.
The brake system can be fully primed in about 5 minutes, and "operational" in about 3.

 

[RSimons]

I remember an American railwayman telling me that in cold weather in the USA they usually keep locos ticking-over all night in case they can't start them in the morning.

I’ve been told that CN does not use antifreeze even when it can go down to -40.

 

[Rhinojerry]

I remember an American railwayman telling me that in cold weather in the USA they usually keep locos ticking-over all night in case they can't start them in the morning.

Yes they do.The Virtual Railfan camera at Skykomish has had a few tie down for the night locos running all the time.I guess the locals get used to the near constant hiss of the air tanks.

 

[skyhigh]

True, the Lac Megantic disaster is a reminder of ignoring the above .

Not on UK passenger units it's not. No air in the system and the parking brakes will apply automatically (assuming nothing has gone very wrong, but a Sprinter has 2 parking brakes per vehicle so the chances of all failing to apply is slim).

 

[bunnahabhain]

The first departures from Nottingham ECS are pre 4am, the units will at 3am will still be getting shunted and prepared for the days service. Having been a regular there are such hours for many years now I can assure you that the majority won't have been running. Its quite common to turn up at about 4am and most will be shut down except those immediately leaving.

 

[LowLevel]

Some vehicles run all night, most certainly don't (I deposit trains there anywhere up to 0100 and get on them again from 0300).

15x units are fitted with a timer whereby once the driver's key is out the unit will shut down after so many minutes.

There are some 156 vehicles (note - vehicles, not units, it's usually one vehicle of the two) that won't shut down unless the engine stop button is pressed, either due to an issue with the timer or because it's been disconnected for some reason and if the Air Conditioning Isolation Switch is operated on a 158 they won't shut down either. Neither condition is immediately obvious to the driver leaving the train, most leave them to time out and shut down of their own accord which is particularly important for the 158s which need to pump down the air conditioning system.

Whist the units are being ferried on and off the shed and shunted, or the cleaners are on them, they'll generally be left running.

You have to prep a train within a certain amount of time before it enters service so they'll be started up again later which again will result in them being started up again for the prep and be running until they time out and again a short time before entering service they'll be started.

 

[Taunton]

I see the usual commentators have come out, that "because you didn't stand there every minute of the night, your views are not valid".

This is a longstanding issue that comes to the surface periodically. I recall some new sidings installed at Reading a while ago backing onto houses, which were seized by the operator as a good place to leave strings of Class 165s thrumming away all night - or all weekend.

The older generation engines don't take at all kindly to start/stop operation.
To put it bluntly, their fuel injection systems were quite cutting edge at the time they were designed, but very primitive by modern standards, so would be prone to valves+ delivery systems getting clogged. Hence long periods of idling.

OK. But these are modern generation engines, on current stock. We have had diesels for 100 years now.

I was astounded by the number of diesel engines idling all night long in the closed station! With the whole "Green push", Greta-fan-clubs and the "Green rail" images... surely leaving 5+ diesel engines idling ALL NIGHT is a complete joke? If I were to do the same in my car or HGV I'd be in line for a fine

Quite so. Furthermore the percentage of undesirable particulates, unburnt fuel, etc, is greater when ticking over than under power, where the environmental measurements are taken.

I’ve been told that CN does not use antifreeze even when it can go down to -40.

It's true that North America has even more of a tradition of this. What the crew initially did at Lac Megantic was pretty normal. Engines are left running not just overnight but for weeks. Not putting anti-freeze in is something that goes back to the old ubiquitous and otherwise reliable GM 567C engine, which had a longstanding continual coolant leak issue and could require substantial topping up at least once a day. The engine rooms of the locos were generally awash, and had drainage holes on each side. Anti-freeze would be just too expensive. Where units were left overnight a device called an "engine watcher", essentially a microphone on a trackside pole, might be installed, linked to the remote dispatcher's console, so if the engine shut down, maybe for low coolant, and the noise stopped a warning was given when there was still time to do something, or drain it (which in winter is always done if shut down) before the radiator, and ancillaries like cab heaters, froze up and were ruined.

 

[alistairlees]

I remember asking in Edinburgh in the early 1980s why DMUs were left idling all night (seemingly) while I was waiting between overnight trains. "To prevent the batteries from going flat" was the answer that I was given. These were 1st generation DMUs, of course.

 

[Cowley]

I remember asking in Edinburgh in the early 1980s why DMUs were left idling all night (seemingly) while I was waiting between overnight trains. "To prevent the batteries from going flat" was the answer that I was given. These were 1st generation DMUs, of course.

And locos too back in the 1980s. There were often locos on shed at Exeter ticking over hour after hour through the night, especially if the weather was cold.

 

[Whistler40145]

I was under the impression that in large populated areas near to where trains are stabled, that engines must be shutdown for noise.

 

[seagull]

I see the usual commentators have come out, that "because you didn't stand there every minute of the night, your views are not valid".

If referring to me, other than the fact I am not a usual commentator, I also specifically said that exaggerating and claiming to be there all night, when he quite clearly wasn't, means that a) he couldn't honestly make that claim and b) if not there all night, how can someone allege something to be happening all night?
Nothing to do with invalid views, simply inaccurate claims. Which make answering the question more difficult.

 

[Llama]

There are some 156 vehicles (note - vehicles, not units, it's usually one vehicle of the two) that won't shut down unless the engine stop button is pressed, either due to an issue with the timer or because it's been disconnected for some reason and if the Air Conditioning Isolation Switch is operated on a 158 they won't shut down either. Neither condition is immediately obvious to the driver leaving the train, most leave them to time out and shut down of their own accord which is particularly important for the 158s which need to pump down the air conditioning system.

156 vehicles won't shut down if the auxiliary heater is isolated because the aux heater on 156s will normally fire up at 1.5°C as automatic frost protection - if it's isolated it can't. Suspect that might be why 158s won't shut down if the ACIS is open (assuming the ACIS can govern the aux heater on a 158?)

 

[43066]

Some vehicles run all night, most certainly don't (I deposit trains there anywhere up to 0100 and get on them again from 0300).

15x units are fitted with a timer whereby once the driver's key is out the unit will shut down after so many minutes.

There are some 156 vehicles (note - vehicles, not units, it's usually one vehicle of the two) that won't shut down unless the engine stop button is pressed, either due to an issue with the timer or because it's been disconnected for some reason and if the Air Conditioning Isolation Switch is operated on a 158 they won't shut down either. Neither condition is immediately obvious to the driver leaving the train, most leave them to time out and shut down of their own accord which is particularly important for the 158s which need to pump down the air conditioning system.

Whist the units are being ferried on and off the shed and shunted, or the cleaners are on them, they'll generally be left running.

You have to prep a train within a certain amount of time before it enters service so they'll be started up again later which again will result in them being started up again for the prep and be running until they time out and again a short time before entering service they'll be started.

The EMR sprinters and 170s parked up at Derby between services always seem to be shut down fairly promptly.

And locos too back in the 1980s. There were often locos on shed at Exeter ticking over hour after hour through the night, especially if the weather was cold.

And the North end power car HSTs stabled in Cricklewood depot up until late last year! Shutting both ends down necessitated a lengthy prep. 222s stabled at CWD are also often kept running for shunting to/from the fuel road, and to keep heating/lighting on for cleaners and also for drivers who remain on them overnight. The need for this will disappear once the bi modes are introduced, of course.

 

[Cowley]

And the North end power car HSTs stabled in Cricklewood depot up until late last year! Shutting both ends down necessitated a lengthy prep. 222s stabled at CWD are also often kept running for shunting to/from the fuel road, and to keep heating/lighting on for cleaners and also for drivers who remain on them overnight. The need for this will disappear once the bi modes are introduced, of course.

Interesting thanks for that.

 

[randyrippley]

I think you've all fallen for a journalist looking for a story

 

[43066]

I think you've all fallen for a journalist looking for a story

If so they’re scraping the barrel! Not sure some sprinters idling in a deserted station overnight would be that much of a scoop?!