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Different revenue protection approaches at different TOCs?

dk1

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My experience too.

This side of the Pennines tickets seem to be checked on pretty much every Northern journey, usually multiple times.
Travelling around Greater Manchester, Cheshire & South Lancashire I encounter ticket checks much less frequently.
Completely agree. I was recently very impressed with the conductors on the Harrogate route. They where practically on the passengers as they boarded.

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Currently on a busy 09:55 Norwich-Liverpool and the EMR conductor is taking no prisoners. She has charged the person behind me for a completely new ticket as the previous one is invalid and asked for all railcards to be shown several times.
 
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Ant1966

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Echo what others have said; NE Rover last week (with a quick trip to Scotland). Northern guards in Yorkshire and the NE incredibly proactive. I was checked on every single train (or pretty much) Also in Scotland (except short hops on Glasgow suburban trains). LNER not so much. Also encountered a revenue block at Doncaster.
 
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Great Northern are very hot on revenue protection. I travel from North London to Welwyn Garden City twice a week and get checked at least once on board the train almost every week, including at odd times such as 7.00 on a Sunday morning. From what I've seen they are generally quite pragmatic when finding people without (correct) tickets - they seem to either go for a penalty fare or sell a new ticket.

The one annoyance I have with it though is that they have set the barriers at Welwyn GC to reject any ticket with a railcard on it - it's very irritating having to request to be let through manually every single time with a perfectly valid ticket.
 

sheff1

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Barriers are only good at saying a particular ticket is valid at that station, not necessary for the train that passenger is going to be boarding.
They are not even very good at that. Tickets valid at a station are often rejected. For a long time the barriers at Leeds rejected certain tickets with an origin of Leeds as “not valid at this station”.
 
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Agreed. Even if you you were to travel on the same service on all 7 days of the week you could have a completely different revenue experience on all 7 journeys, there's just so many variables.

It may be difficult for the guard to get through much of the train between stations, particularly if stations are close together or they need to be at a particular set of doors due to location of door controls or for SDO requirements. A longer and/or busier train will obviously take far longer for the guard to get through. Checking railcards as well can take literally twice as long, if not more. Dealing with just one passenger who doesn't have the correct ticket can take up almost the entire time between stops. Guards may prioritise ticket checks in certain areas of the train (e.g First Class / Standard Premium). They may need to be in contact with control/resources/stations regarding delays or disruption or similar. Newer guards may be encouraged to concentrate on their safety critical duties and build up their revenue duties over a period of time - potentially the same with any guards who have had an extended period of time away from work or those who have had an operational incident.

Like I say, there's just so many variables, it's probably impossible to list them all.
Given the impossibility of checking every ticket on every journey, this variability is a good thing rather than otherwise - providing it doesn't inadvertently result in a situation where passengers on certain journeys at certain times know they will never be checked.
 

skyhigh

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Why should this matter to an individual if they are not "the railway"?
For a start, the Railway is subsidised overall, so it's in the taxpayers interest that fares are collected.
 

driverd

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It impacts on customers. It's annoying to find barriers programmed to reject your ticket, staff who don't know about things like break of journey and it's a nervous experience using ticket acceptance or being legitimately on the wrong train on an Advance ticket - what happens if staff don't know/understand/care?

From my personal experience travelling, there's absolutely an issue with staff training and the absolute lack of understanding when it comes to ticket restrictions/acceptance etc. It shouldn't be the customers job to explain to a gateline employee why their wrong and, as is well documented, often creates conflict. I'm all for revenue protection but the TOCs have to live up to their side of the deal too.

It's even worse with the agency gateline staff - the level of training is abysmal, it's a fine first, ask questions later culture, and many find subsequent liaison with the TOCs revenue team worse than that of a car park operator - atleast they tend to play by their own rules.

Mind you, this has all played out quite publicly in court, with (if I recall correctly) TPE and Northern having to refund a sizeable sum in fines.

Customer service standards are low on the railway, and getting worse. TOCs have embraced their niche being transport for journeys where you have no other way of doing them, or the alternatives are even more unappealing, but have to be done (commuting, business travel, appointments) or the destination is appealing enough to put up with it (London, major events).

Absolutely agree wholeheartedly. I joined the rail industry in 2011 - at this point, the First group TOCs I worked for viewed customer service as the engine which drives the business. It showed through on a service delivery front, but even better, worked well for the bottom line. We're now going entirely the other way - to the extent that you near enough require university level training in the rail ticketing system and conflict resolution, should there be any minor deviation from the journey you initially purchased a ticket for.

It’s a government thing, as they’ve identified that this is one way they can claw back some money.

However I think many passengers do actually like it as well, as people generally don’t like seeing others get away without paying when they’ve paid themselves, especially with rail fares not exactly being cheap these days.

To an extent I do agree, however, I also think there's a whole load of people who find showing their ticket an inconvenience, especially if asked to do so multiple times in a journey. It's a balance, of course, but when you scan it through a barrier, show it to the guard, show it to revenue who board 2 stops later, show it to the second guard who gets on 1 hour 45 into your journey and decides to do a full check, then finally get to finish the ticket relay in the destination barrier, it does get a touch excessive!

There was always quite a strong ethos in Regional Railways of checking tickets. It was always quite a step-change for people used to the London/south-east area to find the guards being pretty religious on tickets. South West Trains always seemed pretty hot on it too, with the obvious exception of the London metro routes.

I think the main difference nowadays is that between the attitude of a guard and revenue protection. In my experience, guards tend to be more relaxed (along with having less enforcement powers) and more prepared to lend a sympathetic ear.
 

tram21

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Lots of people (rightly or almost certainly wrongly) feel very aggrieved that their ticket hasn't been checked on a journey, because they think it's a waste of a ticket as there's no point paying otherwise.

This is especially the case on shorter journeys or tram systems; in Nottingham fare evasion is pretty rife but there is a large amount of revenue protection, but if you don't see an inspector I've heard countless people say it was a waste of a ticket.

So many passengers actually want to be checked because deep down it reinforces their morals that they should buy a ticket and not chance it.
 

Sonic1234

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To um...protect revenue?
What's the balance between this and customer service? Like we saw with the revenue blocks at Brighton, people who had paid their fares getting delayed to catch the minority who hadn't. Southern at this time were trying to entice car drivers in their promotional material. How many thought if I'm going to be delayed 30 minutes "just for a ticket check", I may as well be on the A27.

For a start, the Railway is subsidised overall, so it's in the taxpayers interest that fares are collected.
What is the balance between protecting revenue and being uneconomic? What does a revenue block cost? The subsidy argument is lost on the general public, the man on the Clapham 'bus would never believe such an expensive to use system needs subsidy.

absolute lack of understanding when it comes to ticket restrictions/acceptance etc
An issue is lack of experience too, hence the awful experience at TfL and London Metro gatelines. They simply don't see people breaking their journey on paper tickets, starting short, ending early, using Rovers, using an Off-Peak ticket "early" (but this one is code P7 not P8 so it's fine) etc. It's all Oyster and Contactless. I expect if everyone breaking their journey at a TfL gateline had to pay again and take TfL to court to reclaim their money, little would change as it's so rare.
At least "OnTrak" agency staff at metro stations see their job as being on SnapChat and TikTok so will open the gate to make you go away. TfL not so much.
 

BeijingDave

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What is this obsession with revenue protection? It makes the passenger experience about as pleasant as a trip to the dentist.
As somebody who always pays for a (correct) ticket and dislikes seeing rule flouting that raises prices for all of us, I disagree.
 

Towers

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Why should this matter to an individual if they are not "the railway"?
That’s a plainly ridiculous viewpoint; if you travel by rail your ticket will/may be checked, the reason for this is obvious and it’s very much an integral part of the journey (or indeed should be!). If you attend a gig or concert or similar, they don’t just let the hoardes pile in on the hope that they’ve all paid, there is a general principal in life that if you require a ticket for something then it will very likely be checked.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The one annoyance I have with it though is that they have set the barriers at Welwyn GC to reject any ticket with a railcard on it - it's very irritating having to request to be let through manually every single time with a perfectly valid ticket.
It would be even more annoying if the barrier staff didn’t subsequently request to see said Railcard before letting you in! Or do you look too honest for them to bother? :D
 

transportphoto

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To an extent I do agree, however, I also think there's a whole load of people who find showing their ticket an inconvenience, especially if asked to do so multiple times in a journey.
It sucks to be them, I suppose. Such a minor inconvenience that most should be able to accept as part of day to day life.
I think the main difference nowadays is that between the attitude of a guard and revenue protection. In my experience, guards tend to be more relaxed (along with having less enforcement powers) and more prepared to lend a sympathetic ear.
Absolutely agree. Guards are often afforded the power of discretion and aren’t as scrutinised on revenue decisions compared to their RPO counterparts.
 

AlterEgo

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Why should this matter to an individual if they are not "the railway"?
People live in a society and have a mutual interest in people obeying the law and paying their way for public services.
 

D1537

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Do LNER barrier any stations other than London? Doncaster is a fare dodger's paradise.

Peterborough, Darlington, Newcastle.

I travel between two unbarriered stations a lot - Northallerton and York - and if I stick to LNER I don't see a ticket check either way the vast majority of the time, even on the 5-car Newcastle-York shuttles. LNER staff rarely ask for railcards either. TPE are a lot hotter on both counts.
 

800301

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Most guards at GA are very proactive over checking railcards and their validity.

Pretty much every time I’ve travelled beyond Shenfield to anywhere else in GA land, I’m happy to say I’ve had my ticket checked and railcard normally on each train I’ve traveled, the conductor or revenue person has been polite and it’s been a positive experience even when I’ve overheard them dealing with people that do not have the correct ticket for their journey, however I’ve never had my ticket checked from Shenfield to Liverpool Street except once at LST when they had a full revenue presence on the platform I arrived on
 

dk1

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Pretty much every time I’ve travelled beyond Shenfield to anywhere else in GA land, I’m happy to say I’ve had my ticket checked and railcard normally on each train I’ve traveled, the conductor or revenue person has been polite and it’s been a positive experience even when I’ve overheard them dealing with people that do not have the correct ticket for their journey, however I’ve never had my ticket checked from Shenfield to Liverpool Street except once at LST when they had a full revenue presence on the platform I arrived on
Good to hear that. I do believe revenue protection do occasional checks on DOO 720 operated services but suppose its often to busy south of shenfield. Additional ticket gates are being installed on platforms 1-10 at Liverpool Street.
 

higthomas

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Great Northern are very hot on revenue protection. I travel from North London to Welwyn Garden City twice a week and get checked at least once on board the train almost every week, including at odd times such as 7.00 on a Sunday morning. From what I've seen they are generally quite pragmatic when finding people without (correct) tickets - they seem to either go for a penalty fare or sell a new ticket.
Weird. I travel Cambridge to London and think I've had an on-train ticket check perhaps 5 times in a hundred or so journeys in the last couple of years.

Perhaps it's just that they know the train is starting/ending at Kings Cross so there isn't a great opportunity to fare dodge there.
 

Ant1966

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To an extent I do agree, however, I also think there's a whole load of people who find showing their ticket an inconvenience, especially if asked to do so multiple times in a journey. It's a balance, of course, but when you scan it through a barrier, show it to the guard, show it to revenue who board 2 stops later, show it to the second guard who gets on 1 hour 45 into your journey and decides to do a full check, then finally get to finish the ticket relay in the destination barrier, it does get a touch excessive
Thats where travelling around Yorkshire with Northern was such a pleasure.
The Guards (generally) came round after every stop / few stops with 'Tickets from XYZ please'. Sometimes that was a little too free and easy, a couple of times theyd moved on before I had a chance to get my ticket out, even though I had joined at a recent station. But it would have been enough to deter all but the mots brazen fare dodgers. Rover accepted without any issue 100% of the time; and available to buy from the TVM.
Add to that the fact that the stations I needed to exit most often (Donny, Rotherham, Sheffield and York) were not barriered (wonder why not, guess there are reasons in each case?) and the whole experience was lovely, reminded me of CH.
theres a nice hypothesis for the forum: - 'Yorkshire = Switzerland' Discuss. 8-)
 

mm333

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Since Southeastern started accepting e-tickets, I’ve not been asked for my railcard once on my HS1 journeys. I used to present my paper ticket and show them my digital railcard at the same time. Now I present my e-ticket showing that I’m using a Network Railcard and I’ve not been asked to show said railcard at all.
 

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