Dining Car Attendant 1928 - 1939 St Pancras?

[BobB1]

Good Morning

Could anyone assist me in trying to find information regarding a rail employee (my Maternal Grandfather) based in and around St Pancras in 1928 to 1939.

His name was Albert or Alfred Wilson, born 1900. However, although unlikely, its possible he may have been registered for employment under his birth name, Albert Spiers.

I only know that during this period, he worked on the railways in London (lived at addresses near St Pancras) and on his children's birth certificates he gives 'DINING CAR ATTENTANT' as his occupation - assuming he was being accurate and honest.

1. What service or train company would a dining car attendant likely to have worked?
2. Does anyone know if records might exist of such an employee at that time?
3. How can I go about discovering if anything exists of this man's career?
4. Is it possible this man's rail employment can be found (in ANY capacity) at the time?
4. Can anyone provide any background/information on the likely employment and routine of a Dining car attendant?

I admit that this has been a fruitless search so far, but I'm hoping that this forum may have more knowledgeable minds than mine.

Regards

Bob

 

[Gloster]

1 He would probably work for the Catering Department of one of the four main railways, of which the London, Midland & Scottish and London & North-Eastern were the most likley as they both had major terminuses in the St Pancras area. (The other two were the Great Western and Southern, but they did not operate in that area and he probably lived near his home station.)

2 + 3 + 4 There are still quite a few records about, mostly at either the National Archives in Kew or the National Railway Museum in York. Other posters may know more.

5 He would assist the other restaurant car staff in loading and putting away the food and equipment, although he would not really be involved in food preparation. He would prepare the tables: putting out the linen, glasses, cutlery, condiments, side-plates, etc. He would greet the customers, show them to their seats, do, all the duties of a nurse waiter and clear up after they had gone. He, or at least the senior attendant, would do the books. Where the restaurant car crew finished he would help to remove dirty linen, etc. and see it was taken to where it should go.

Often a member of the restaurant car crew would walk through the train either asking for any reservations for a sitting in the restauant car or announcing that a sitting was about to start. They also might serve things like afternoon tea, but only to adjacent First Class coaches.

Effectively he was a waiter, but with the added factor that the food and equipment had to be brought in before he started and removed at the end. And a reasonable amount of balance was needed, together with some knowledge of the route: ‘don’t serve soup there as the coach lurches as it goes over the junction’.

 

[WesternLancer]

Good Morning

Could anyone assist me in trying to find information regarding a rail employee (my Maternal Grandfather) based in and around St Pancras in 1928 to 1939.

His name was Albert or Alfred Wilson, born 1900. However, although unlikely, its possible he may have been registered for employment under his birth name, Albert Spiers.

I only know that during this period, he worked on the railways in London (lived at addresses near St Pancras) and on his children's birth certificates he gives 'DINING CAR ATTENTANT' as his occupation - assuming he was being accurate and honest.

1. What service or train company would a dining car attendant likely to have worked?
2. Does anyone know if records might exist of such an employee at that time?
3. How can I go about discovering if anything exists of this man's career?
4. Is it possible this man's rail employment can be found (in ANY capacity) at the time?
4. Can anyone provide any background/information on the likely employment and routine of a Dining car attendant?

I admit that this has been a fruitless search so far, but I'm hoping that this forum may have more knowledgeable minds than mine.

Regards

Bob

Interesting to questions! I would suggest in terms of the range of material about on the history of the railways, catering on board trains is less well covered than things like engineering, locomotives wagons and carriages, history of individual railway lines etc.

However, in those days there would have been a lot more restaurant cars / dining cars on trains than have existed in recent years (there are still a few left if you want to savour the experience - GWR Pullman Dining being a good example!) - the details are usually shown in old timetables, that detail the services where a restaurant car would have been available for passengers to use. There are a few experts on the forum who would be able to point you towards old timetables from that period that have been scanned and uploaded on the web, and how to find the services listed with Dining Cars included for all or part of the service - that would give you an idea of the sorts of trains he would have worked on, where they went, what time etc - typically the longer distance, more prestigious trains being most likely.

You would also be able to find examples of dining car menus on line too (some for sale on e-bay with images) eg https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354400308408

and this has images of menu, posters, pics of crockery and an overview that is worth a look

Dining Cars: Eating in luxury and travelling at Speed | National Railway Museum

In 1879 Britain's first dining car service was introduced, serving a six-course feast from Leeds to London. How did these restaurants on rails fare against the challenges of the 1900s?

www.railwaymuseum.org.uk

and menu and wine list (LMS services would have operated from St Pancras and Euston)

London Midland & Scottish Railway menu folder | Science Museum Group Collection

Menu folder. London Midland & Scottish Railway. LMS Restaurant Car. First Class. Luncheon menu. c1935. Cover illustration of a carved mural decoration by Eric Gill in the Lounge of the Midland Hotel, Morecambe, of a scene from Homer's Odyssey depicting Odysseus being welcomed from the sea...

collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk

and this looks useful - listing of resources at the National Railway Museum of relevance (including oral history recordings, items in their collection, articles in magazines - including an LMS staff magazine from 1920s that may be pertinent):

https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/sites/default/files/2018-06/Moveable-feast-resource-pack-0618.pdf

I think from fairly early on after the declaration of war in 1939 Dining Car services were suspended, which might have been one of the reasons why your relative could have moved on from that occupation around that time.

3 books on the topic I located that may be of interest - just from a quick search and these came up on Amazon at pretty cheap prices, in case of intertest

At Your Service: Tales from a Railway Dining Car (Working Lives S.) Paperback – 1 Nov. 1999​

by Michael Charman (Author)

The Restaurant Car: A Century of Railway Catering Hardcover – 30 Aug. 1979​

by G. Kitchenside (Author)

Dining at Speed: A Celebration of 125 Years of Railway Catering Paperback – 6 Jun. 2014​

by Chris de Winter-Hebron (Author)

 

[30907]

Timetables on Timetableworld.com (look at Bradshaw for that era) will show which trains had a restaurant car.

 

[Rescars]

1 He would probably work for the Catering Department of one of the four main railways, of which the London, Midland & Scottish and London & North-Eastern were the most likley as they both had major terminuses in the St Pancras area. (The other two were the Great Western and Southern, but they did not operate in that area and he probably lived near his home station.)

2 + 3 + 4 There are still quite a few records about, mostly at either the National Archives in Kew or the National Railway Museum in York. Other posters may know more.

5 He would assist the other restaurant car staff in loading and putting away the food and equipment, although he would not really be involved in food preparation. He would prepare the tables: putting out the linen, glasses, cutlery, condiments, side-plates, etc. He would greet the customers, show them to their seats, do, all the duties of a nurse waiter and clear up after they had gone. He, or at least the senior attendant, would do the books. Where the restaurant car crew finished he would help to remove dirty linen, etc. and see it was taken to where it should go.

Often a member of the restaurant car crew would walk through the train either asking for any reservations for a sitting in the restauant car or announcing that a sitting was about to start. They also might serve things like afternoon tea, but only to adjacent First Class coaches.

Effectively he was a waiter, but with the added factor that the food and equipment had to be brought in before he started and removed at the end. And a reasonable amount of balance was needed, together with some knowledge of the route: ‘don’t serve soup there as the coach lurches as it goes over the junction’.

He would also have done a lot of washing up! The cooks in the kitchen would have done all the food preparation and associated kitchen cleaning, but the dining car attendants would have looked after all the china, cutlery and glassware. All washed and dried by hand.

He would have made and served a lot of tea and coffee too. Outside meal service times, tea and coffee may well have been served to passengers in the rest of the train, especially first class, but afternoon tea would have been served in the dining car. He would also have served a range of beers, wines and spirits. He may have sold cigars too. Larger kitchen cars were equipped with thermistors for cigar storage.

As regards balance, this was a critical skill, especially to enable silver service of food. Silver serving was much quicker and slicker than serving pre-plated meals. Serving soup from a tureen was always a challenge, not just at junctions. Route knowledge was important for other reasons, apart from the obvious of knowing when to start and stop service. One particular responsibility, unknown to anyone else involved in serving food and drink, was the regulation to close the windows of dining cars marshalled at the front of trains on the approach to water troughs. If this didn't happen, passengers might have got rather more water than they needed in their whisky!

and menu and wine list (LMS services would have operated from St Pancras and Euston)

London Midland & Scottish Railway menu folder | Science Museum Group Collection

Menu folder. London Midland & Scottish Railway. LMS Restaurant Car. First Class. Luncheon menu. c1935. Cover illustration of a carved mural decoration by Eric Gill in the Lounge of the Midland Hotel, Morecambe, of a scene from Homer's Odyssey depicting Odysseus being welcomed from the sea...

collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk

Great menu and wine list. Keeping with the whisky theme, good to see Royal Scot listed as Bin 138. Reputedly it was given this bin number because someone very important thought the LMS house blend was twice as good as Vat 69!

 

[BobB1]

Thank you for the informative replies regarding the routine of a Dining Car attendant.

The clue to being part of the Catering Department is obvious when you think about it, but not one I've considered before. Was this a centrally based organisation at each main station, or did each company have its own catering department? Would any records of this survive, if so where?

His young family were always of the opinion that he worked the Flying Scotsman, but these were children under the age of 7 at the time and I can't rule out a little bit of boasting by him, or mis-understanding/mis-hearing.

I thought it more likely to be the Royal Scott. I contacted the preservation group responsible for this engine, but they hold no staff records. I have also contacted the Railway Museum in York, who also apparently hold no staff records or little other information on dining cars of that period and referred me back to the National Archive. It's my understanding that this archive is limited?

Surely, there must be staff records somewhere? Union membership, Salary accounts, discipline records, work rosters etc? Or, were these massive rail companies run on a much more fluid administrative basis? Is it known if these archives may never have been secured for the future?

I'd like to believe that a man who worked for a railway company for (potentially) 10 years must have left a trace of a record somehow?

Is there anyone on this thread that has access to rail records that might help, or offer lines of enquiry I haven't though of to date?

I'm grateful for the input so far.

Bob

 

[Magdalia]

If the relevant employer's records survive then they are likely to be in the National Archives, which inherited the British Railways archive. However, finding them could be tricky. It can be a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Another possibility is trades union records. The National Union of Railwaymen archive is at the University of Warwick.

 

[Rescars]

Each of the Big Four had their own catering departments, usually operating their hotels and refreshment rooms as well as their on-train services. Staff worked out of their home depots (usually located at relevant major termini). Lodging turns to staff long distance workings were not unusual.

A further possibility is that Mr Wilson could have worked for the Pullman Car Co. Pullmans worked on the LNER. Pullman was a separate company, maintaining its own rolling stock and employing its own staff. IIRC Pullmans were staffed by "Attendants" under the supervision of a "Conductor".

 

[Gloster]

I would add that if he lived at addresses in the St Pancras area, he could have worked on the Flying Scotsman, as it operated from Kings Cross station, right next door to St Pancras station, and within the same borough. However, he would have been working on the LNER in that case. There were, so I understand, only a small number of LNER Pullman services, although as they were popular with photographers it might appear otherwise.

 

[Roger1973]

His young family were always of the opinion that he worked the Flying Scotsman, but these were children under the age of 7 at the time and I can't rule out a little bit of boasting by him, or mis-understanding/mis-hearing.

I thought it more likely to be the Royal Scott. I contacted the preservation group responsible for this engine

Apologies if stating the obvious, but just to clarify a possible source of confusion -

There was / is a London and North Eastern Railway steam engine / locomotive named 'Flying Scotsman', but 'The Flying Scotsman' was also a named train service, as in the LNER's 10am express train each day from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh, and the 10 am each day from Edinburgh to Kings Cross.

Similarly, there was / is a London Midland and Scottish Railway steam locomotive named 'Royal Scot', and the 'The Royal Scot' was the LMS's principal daily express train service each way between London Euston and Glasgow.

In both cases, it's probable that the locomotive hauled the train in question some times (I'm not sure if the same loco would have worked through, or more likely if there was a loco change somewhere half way), but the locomotive and the train service are not the same thing.

The equivalent train service from St Pancras (also, after 1923, London Midland and Scottish Railway) was the Thames Clyde Express, which I don't think had a locomotive named for it.

Surely, there must be staff records somewhere? Union membership, Salary accounts, discipline records, work rosters etc? Or, were these massive rail companies run on a much more fluid administrative basis? Is it known if these archives may never have been secured for the future?

There would have been paper records at the time, in an age before computers - although rosters and the like probably wouldn't have been kept indefinitely.

The 1939-45 war caused some records to be lost in bombing raids, or lost when offices were moved from London to somewhere safer then back again. And the attitude of employers (in all industries) to keeping records for more than X amount of time after someone has left employment are variable.

I can't offer any personal experience of the railway industry, but I'm aware that after the bus industry was deregulated / privatised in the late 80s, a lot of companies closed or moved offices as the industry re-structured itself in the years afterwards, and a lot of companies did dispose of records and material that would have been better in an archive. (In hindsight, I wish I'd 'rescued' more out of the offices in my first job in the industry, but I was young then...) But short term commercial considerations often took priority.

 

[6Gman]

Apologies if stating the obvious, but just to clarify a possible source of confusion -

There was / is a London and North Eastern Railway steam engine / locomotive named 'Flying Scotsman', but 'The Flying Scotsman' was also a named train service, as in the LNER's 10am express train each day from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh, and the 10 am each day from Edinburgh to Kings Cross.

Similarly, there was / is a London Midland and Scottish Railway steam locomotive named 'Royal Scot', and the 'The Royal Scot' was the LMS's principal daily express train service each way between London Euston and Glasgow.

In both cases, it's probable that the locomotive hauled the train in question some times (I'm not sure if the same loco would have worked through, or more likely if there was a loco change somewhere half way), but the locomotive and the train service are not the same thing.

My memories certainly don't go back pre-war ( ) but I did know some dining car crews in the 60s/70s and crews tended to stay together and work the same trains. I would suspect that - as with drivers and firemen - crews would move to more prestigious services as they gained experience and skill, and that some duties were more lucrative than others in tips! (In the 60s "old money" customers were better tippers than "new money" businessmen, especially if they were on company expenses!)

So I would expect a new member of staff would start working on lower regarded services, unpopular turns of duties, and being switched around to fill gaps. Over time he would settle into a regular crew and "cultivate" regular customers.

 

[WesternLancer]

Surely, there must be staff records somewhere? Union membership, Salary accounts, discipline records, work rosters etc? Or, were these massive rail companies run on a much more fluid administrative basis? Is it known if these archives may never have been secured for the future?

I'd like to believe that a man who worked for a railway company for (potentially) 10 years must have left a trace of a record somehow?

Is there anyone on this thread that has access to rail records that might help, or offer lines of enquiry I haven't though of to date?

I'm grateful for the input so far.

Bob

Ref staff records - I am not sure if you got pointed towards this when you contact the National Railway Museum, but I doo recall they used to have - accessible via their website - a useful factsheet document to help people who are researching their family history with finding records that may exist and pointers of where to go to look for such records. They must often get asked for this sort of info.

Probably this:

Family history | National Railway Museum

Researching a family connection to the railways? Find out how to get started on your search.

www.railwaymuseum.org.uk

which includes this info:

• For staff records of railway companies in England and Wales, visit the railway staff record guide at the National Archives.

which links to this - which would indicate this is where you need to go to look to get answers to the specific questions you pose, if they exist, the info here on what they hold, how to search it etc is quite detailed and informative - but apols if you have already seen it:

Railway workers - The National Archives

1. Why use this guide? Use this guide if you are searching for records of people who worked for railway companies in the UK before the railways were nationalised in 1947. It is only the larger railway companies for which we have comprehensive sets of staff records. These records cover a broad...

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

But reading this suggests that the records they hold are not too 'limited' so that would suggest to me this is your best place to go and look.

Never having looked at such records I am not sure what they would contain in detail, but that page gives some idea - Maybe a the basics of name, address, job title and pay rate perhaps, but in some cases it looks like a bit more than that.

Do you have any address details for the chap? If so searches on electoral registers form the time period in the pertinent London Borough local archives would allow you to check location in consecutive years I would have thought.

Good luck - it's certainly an interesting topic to try and research I think.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The 1930's saw a tight period for on train catering (thanks to post war recession , the effect of the 1926 general strike , and 1931 was about the worst year of the economy - things picked up towards the end of the 1930's for re-arnament and the growth of consumer light goods in new industry. The competition for traffic north of London on longer distances would have diminished - for example pre 1921 Midland Railway dining cars out of St Pancras were of a very high standard as that company focused on quality standards , comfy trains and catering to balance out their longer journey times - the Great Central - later LNER out of Marylebone gave up full dining and reverted to buffet car working and so on. Yes - there were some flagship operations and a few very fast trains with superb morale boosting headline trains like the Royal Scot and the LNER streamliners , but they were not really heavy loaders.

So my point is that traditional formal dining in that period was not hugely visible, to be working on one of those trains would have been a privilige as the catering trend was for "snack cars" , buffet cars and so on. (not your heavy 3 or 4 course luncheons and dinners) - even the fare on the Pullman cars often came out of a can , but was talked up ....

 

[stuving]

According to the National Archives guide (link above), staff records of most of the main railway companies have been imaged and indexed by Ancestry. This includes the LNER and LMS. What neither TNA nor Ancestry tell you is how complete their holdings are - for the obvious reason that they have no way of knowing for sure what they do not have.

I've searched Ancestry, with both names, with variations, and found nothing. Ancestry always lists near misses after matching items, so you can judge what the record set contains. In this case, there are hardly any names of staff attached to London stations. Since you expect a large number for the major terminus (and goods ) stations, that suggests very little has been preserved from there for some reason.

 

[BobB1]

Again, thanks for the replies/input. Some interesting information has been provided.

I had no idea that a 'Service' could also share the name of famous steam engines of the day - that opens up the probability that he may indeed have worked, for example, on the Flying Scotsman, just not necessarily pulled by the well know engine of the same name.

As far as I am aware the Union records at Warwick only go to 1928? Is this correct?

I have also noted that Ancestry has an arrangement with NTA ( I appreciate stuving looking), but as with all things that have been financialised, it would appear to be limited - as I see it. Does that mean much more should be available at NTA, or am I wrong?

Therefore, unless there are other thoughts by readers of this thread, it seems a time consuming visit to NTA cannot be avoided if I want to pursue this further, even though that may prove to be fruitless.

N,B. I did a quick search of the catalogue link on the NA - first time I have seen mention of Dining Car Attendant being used - which at least assures me such a title existed.

I got a little bit excited until saw the date.

Again, thanks for the replies/input. Some interesting information has been provided.

I had no idea that a 'Service' could also share the name of famous steam engines of the day - that opens up the probability that he may indeed have worked, for example, on the Flying Scotsman, just not necessarily pulled by the well know engine of the same name.

As far as I am aware the Union records at Warwick only go to 1928? Is this correct?

I have also noted that Ancestry has an arrangement with TNA ( I appreciate stuving looking), but as with all things that have been financialised, it would appear to be limited - as I see it. Does that mean much more should be available at TNA, or am I wrong?

Therefore, unless there are other thoughts by readers of this thread, it seems a time consuming visit to NTA cannot be avoided if I want to pursue this further, even though that may prove to be fruitless.

N,B. I did a quick search of the catalogue link on the TNA - first time I have seen mention of Dining Car Attendant being used - which at least assures me such a title existed.

I got a little bit excited until saw the date.

 

[stuving]

I have also noted that Ancestry has an arrangement with NTA ( I appreciate stuving looking), but as with all things that have been financialised, it would appear to be limited - as I see it. Does that mean much more should be available at NTA, or am I wrong?

Therefore, unless there are other thoughts by readers of this thread, it seems a time consuming visit to NTA cannot be avoided if I want to pursue this further, even though that may prove to be fruitless.

Have you searched through the lists in Appendix 1 of the "Railway Workers" guide? For the grouping era, there are only four companies to consider! These lists are of record sets per company, of which there are three for LMS, only one is staff records, and that's about clerks and juniors. So it seems fair to says there is nothing of use there. These records are not indexed, let alone imaged, but in this case the title is enough.

For LNER, on the other hand, there are 55 items, and all you can do is to click them all in turn. I've looked at a few, and most are appointments of station masters or "Benefit funds and savings banks - admission of new entrants". That second one might be of use - then again it might not, and the coverage is unknown.

The TNA catalogue entries do seem to indicate which Ancestry have indexed images for, and whether their online set is complete or only a specific selection of items. So I think you can find out what is only in TNA and what is accessible via Ancestry. Of course you can't know whether any particular record survived to get into TNA, or whether it existed at all.

 

[BobB1]

Have you searched through the lists in Appendix 1 of the "Railway Workers" guide? For the grouping era, there are only four companies to consider! These lists are of record sets per company, of which there are three for LMS, only one is staff records, and that's about clerks and juniors. So it seems fair to says there is nothing of use there. These records are not indexed, let alone imaged, but in this case the title is enough.

For LNER, on the other hand, there are 55 items, and all you can do is to click them all in turn. I've looked at a few, and most are appointments of station masters or "Benefit funds and savings banks - admission of new entrants". That second one might be of use - then again it might not, and the coverage is unknown.

The TNA catalogue entries do seem to indicate which Ancestry have indexed images for, and whether their online set is complete or only a specific selection of items. So I think you can find out what is only in TNA and what is accessible via Ancestry. Of course you can't know whether any particular record survived to get into TNA, or whether it existed at all.

Re Appendix 1 - yes.

Essentially, I don't have a subscription to Ancestry, and use the local library. They have a license. However, when I try to access TNA it always asks for further payment to view anything beyond the headline. The library doesn't know why and I'm unsure if that would be the same if I independently subscribed. It's looking increasingly likely that I've come up against a brick wall regarding records of this man - or the information I need is tantalisingly out of sight.

But, I've inched forward. For the first time, the term Dining Car Attendant, has shown itself to have been in use - although its unknown if this was an actual employment title I can use for research or just common usage, but its encouraging.

 

[Rescars]

But, I've inched forward. For the first time, the term Dining Car Attendant, has shown itself to have been in use - although its unknown if this was an actual employment title I can use for research or just common usage, but its encouraging.

The LMS menu in post #3 may help. Although it sets out the service offered in a "Restaurant Car", the notes under the wine list refer to the service provided by Dining Car Attendants (along with the suggestion that patrons' comments should be addressed to the formidable Controller of the LMS Hotels, Arthur Towle - who the LMS had inherited from the Midland Railway). This suggests the term was in regular use on the LMS. I wonder if anyone has any similar evidence from the LNER.

 

[Roger1973]

I've just had a thought - I may be remembering wrong, but think I've read somewhere about on-train catering being 'outsourced' (in today's business language) by some of the pre-nationalisation train companies, at least at some times. (And that's aside from the Pullman possibility)

Or may even have been in the early days, pre-grouping (1923)

Anyone know if that might have been the case at the point / locations in time here?

 

[Rescars]

I've just had a thought - I may be remembering wrong, but think I've read somewhere about on-train catering being 'outsourced' (in today's business language) by some of the pre-nationalisation train companies, at least at some times. (And that's aside from the Pullman possibility)

Or may even have been in the early days, pre-grouping (1923)

Anyone know if that might have been the case at the point / locations in time here?

Spiers and Ponds had contracts with a number of pre-grouping companies. IIRC this included the LBSC and also some bars on the Underground. The Midland and the Great Western certainly controlled their own catering operations, which included hotels and refreshment rooms as well as on-train services.

On further surfing, it appears that S&P's first contract was with the London Chatham and Dover. By the 1920s they were apparently the biggest contractor of on-train catering services in the UK. They had the contract for the Southern, but lost it in 1930.

 

[BobB1]

Thanks all very much for the background information regarding Dining Car Attendants. It's helped paint a picture for me of those times 1928 to 1939 and an area of rail travel now largely forgotten, but perhaps now may be expanded by this group.

However, my hope was that someone would have experience or specialise in locating info or reference to a specific employee in this field; Albert Wilson (or Albert Spiers as he was christened).

It was always a long shot, but do I now assume that followers of this rail forum/thread - though trying to help me - are also just as confounded by the limited avenues of research as I am?

If this is the case, though it was worth a try, I'll have to close this thread - with my thanks - and consider what other lines of enquiry I can make.

Regards

Bob

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks all very much for the background information regarding Dining Car Attendants. It's helped paint a picture for me of those times 1928 to 1939 and an area of rail travel now largely forgotten, but perhaps now may be expanded by this group.

However, my hope was that someone would have experience or specialise in locating info or reference to a specific employee in this field; Albert Wilson (or Albert Spiers as he was christened).

It was always a long shot, but do I now assume that followers of this rail forum/thread - though trying to help me - are also just as confounded by the limited avenues of research as I am?

If this is the case, though it was worth a try, I'll have to close this thread - with my thanks - and consider what other lines of enquiry I can make.

Regards

Bob

Hi Bob - I think on this question although ppl researching their ancestry do post from time to time many of the regular forum users and experts will be more familiar with the railway operational aspects of things than the personal staffing aspects of things (ie where staff records might be located beyond the info and links that have been posted) - but you will have seen the more thorough answers about things like the organisation of dining cars, staff roles, the nature of the trans that would have had dining cars, the issues around named trains and named locomotives etc etc.

Are there other forums about ancestry research that focus on employment records and that sort of thing? I am sure if there are and you have found them you will have asked there too.

Your query has stimulated some posts I've found it interesting to read at least - so thanks for posting.

Might be worth keeping an eye on the thread for a bit as other people do come back to them from time to time when they have info that they think may be of use.

 

[Rescars]

Thanks all very much for the background information regarding Dining Car Attendants. It's helped paint a picture for me of those times 1928 to 1939 and an area of rail travel now largely forgotten, but perhaps now may be expanded by this group.

However, my hope was that someone would have experience or specialise in locating info or reference to a specific employee in this field; Albert Wilson (or Albert Spiers as he was christened).

It was always a long shot, but do I now assume that followers of this rail forum/thread - though trying to help me - are also just as confounded by the limited avenues of research as I am?

If this is the case, though it was worth a try, I'll have to close this thread - with my thanks - and consider what other lines of enquiry I can make.

Regards

Bob

A very long shot, but could Albert Spiers be in any way related to Felix William Spiers, the Spiers in Spiers and Pond? There is a biography of FWS on Wikipedia. Highly unlikely I'd guess, but stranger things have happened.

 

[BobB1]

A very long shot, but could Albert Spiers be in any way related to Felix William Spiers, the Spiers in Spiers and Pond? There is a biography of FWS on Wikipedia. Highly unlikely I'd guess, but stranger things have happened.

Hi. I think this is simply one of those strange coincidences. My Grandfather was born in Birmingham, and we have reason to believe he previously worked as a waiter around 1921 to 1926 at the The Queen's hotel (adjacent to New St Station). It's possible that this is where he made the connection or was in the right place, to find work on the trains when he moved to London around 1928.

Western Lancer - I fully understand and wasn't criticising. I'll give it a few more days as you suggest - you never know your luck.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi. I think this is simply one of those strange coincidences. My Grandfather was born in Birmingham, and we have reason to believe he previously worked as a waiter around 1921 to 1926 at the The Queen's hotel (adjacent to New St Station). It's possible that this is where he made the connection or was in the right place, to find work on the trains when he moved to London around 1928.

Western Lancer - I fully understand and wasn't criticising. I'll give it a few more days as you suggest - you never know your luck.

That's interesting - I am pretty sure The Queen's Hotel in Birmingham was an LMS owned railway hotel. That would have meant he would have been well placed to move jobs onto the trains if he desired, or if he had to move to London for other reasons, or if the train based waiters / staff got better pay.

That seems to be verified by the caption to this image (The LNWR was one of he constituent companies amalgamated into the LMS Railway in 1923 - at what is called the 'grouping' of the UK railway companies)

Birmingham New Street Station: View of the front of New Street station and the Queens Hotel on 24th May 1965 shortly before both were to be demolished

"View of the front of New Street station and the Queens Hotel on 24th May 1965 shortly before both were to be demolished. Designed by William Livock the hotel opened at the same time as the station. It was the second largest operated by the LNWR and the LNWR reinforced its reputation by adopting 'Besthotel Birmingham' as its telegraphic address. Staff from the hotel would frequently meet clients on the platform wearing their distinctive red jackets to collect luggage free of charge although tips were always appreciated. Railway porters, wearing standard railway uniforms were not allowed to enter the confines of the hotel."
and see reverse side image of this postcard scanned here

QUEEN'S HOTEL, BIRMINGHAM - TuckDB Postcards

sepia, PRINTED IN ENGLAND, COPYRIGHT, LONDON ONE OF THE L.M.S. HOTELS, UNDER THE DIRECTION OF ARTHUR TOWLE, CONTROLLER, L.M.S. HOTEL SERVICES, ST. PANCRAS, N.W. 1

www.tuckdbpostcards.org

Thanks Bob, no I didn't take your point as a criticism, - fully understand where you are coming from.

 

[BobB1]

That's interesting - I am pretty sure The Queen's Hotel in Birmingham was an LMS owned railway hotel. That would have meant he would have been well placed to move jobs onto the trains if he desired, or if he had to move to London for other reasons, or if the train based waiters / staff got better pay.

That seems to be verified by the caption to this image (The LNWR was one of he constituent companies amalgamated into the LMS Railway in 1923 - at what is called the 'grouping' of the UK railway companies)

Birmingham New Street Station: View of the front of New Street station and the Queens Hotel on 24th May 1965 shortly before both were to be demolished

"View of the front of New Street station and the Queens Hotel on 24th May 1965 shortly before both were to be demolished. Designed by William Livock the hotel opened at the same time as the station. It was the second largest operated by the LNWR and the LNWR reinforced its reputation by adopting 'Besthotel Birmingham' as its telegraphic address. Staff from the hotel would frequently meet clients on the platform wearing their distinctive red jackets to collect luggage free of charge although tips were always appreciated. Railway porters, wearing standard railway uniforms were not allowed to enter the confines of the hotel."
and see reverse side image of this postcard scanned here

QUEEN'S HOTEL, BIRMINGHAM - TuckDB Postcards

sepia, PRINTED IN ENGLAND, COPYRIGHT, LONDON ONE OF THE L.M.S. HOTELS, UNDER THE DIRECTION OF ARTHUR TOWLE, CONTROLLER, L.M.S. HOTEL SERVICES, ST. PANCRAS, N.W. 1

www.tuckdbpostcards.org

Thanks Bob, no I didn't take your point as a criticism, - fully understand where you are coming from.

Interesting. Yes, I think this is where he made contacts that would help him move to London and find work - it makes sense.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Interesting. Yes, I think this is where he made contacts that would help him move to London and find work - it makes sense.

In which case, it might well be that he worked trains from Euston, not St Pancras (or KX), even if he lived nearer those stations. (It's only 8 mins walking between them and Euston in any case.)

Euston had many more restaurant car services than St Pancras - to Birmingham/Wolverhampton, Manchester, Liverpool, N Wales, Preston and Blackpool/Barrow, Carlisle and Glasgow.

 

[BobB1]

In which case, it might well be that he worked trains from Euston, not St Pancras (or KX), even if he lived nearer those stations. (It's only 8 mins walking between them and Euston in any case.)

Euston had many more restaurant car services than St Pancras - to Birmingham/Wolverhampton, Manchester, Liverpool, N Wales, Preston and Blackpool/Barrow, Carlisle and Glasgow.

Do you happen to know what those specific train companies that ran dining or buffet cars from Euston were in those days?

 

[Gloster]

Do you happen to know what those specific train companies that ran dining or buffet cars from Euston were in those days?

All trains from both St Pancras and Euston were operated by the London, Midland & Scottish Railway. Trains from Kings Cross were operated by the London & North Eastern Railway.

 

[Recessio]

It is worth bearing in mind that if the "St Pancras" area just means the Metropolitan Borough of St Pancras, then this was a large borough (about 2/3 of modern day Camden) with some proximity to other stations. That said, and especially as he previously worked near Birmingham New Street, I still imagine it was most likely to have been, as other have said, working for the LMS or LNER out of King's Cross, St Pancras or Euston stations.