Direct Aberystwyth to London trains

[Ayman Ilham]

A while ago, Arriva Trains Wales proposed a few daily direct services to London Marylebone from Aberystwyth extending their Birmingham services via Banbury but was never approved cos Wrexham & Shropshire were in the way for much of that route (London to Shrewsbury). However, with W&S now long gone, maybe now it might be more doable?

However, I think Chiltern would be a better option for such a route since they have more suitable rolling stock for the long run to London, plus they're generally more reliable than TfW from what I've heard. I'm thinking of extending a few of their London MYB to Birmingham Snow Hill express services with the 68-Mk3 sets further west calling at Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Shrewsbury, Welshpool, Newtown, Machynlleth or Aberystwyth. Would be good to see them on longer journeys than just London to Birmingham, plus it would provide additional Aberystwyth services that would probably be faster than the regional TfW services, only serving the significant towns on the line.

 

[anthony kelly]

I remember in the 80s the sat only Euston to aberystwyth what a train electric to Birmingham new street then a pair of rats (class 25s) to aberystwyth

 

[JonathanH]

a few of their London MYB to Birmingham Snow Hill express services with the 68-Mk3 sets further west calling at Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Shrewsbury, Welshpool, Newtown, Machynlleth or Aberystwyth.

Chiltern only have four sets of coaches (plus the limited use commuter set) which serve the purpose of moving heavy loads between London and the West Midlands at peak times. Sending them off to Aberystwyth is not going to work - not to mention that they can't get from Birmingham Snow Hill to Wolverhampton in the first place.

Would be good to see them on longer journeys than just London to Birmingham

They are already only used where they can be well filled. Running units is more cost effective once the trains are less busy. Some of them run on to Kidderminster.

plus it would provide additional Aberystwyth services that would probably be faster than the regional TfW services, only serving the significant towns on the line.

The Aberystwyth line is single track and the timetable has to be planned around the passing places. Running a higher performance train is not going to be faster than the regional TfW services.

The market for London to Aberystwyth travellers is well served by a trunk route to Birmingham and then a well-timed regional connection beyond.

Extensions of long-distance trains to places like Aberystwyth depend on there being marginal time in the schedule when the train would otherwise be in a siding, usually at the start or end of the day, and evidence that running through trains would generate additional revenue. Unfortunately, Birmingham to Aberystwyth is a six hour round trip which is a long trek and difficult to achieve in marginal time regardless of who the operator is.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I remember in the 80s the sat only Euston to aberystwyth what a train electric to Birmingham new street then a pair of rats (class 25s) to aberystwyth

Oh wow, back when you could chop and change locos, must've been a lot more flexibility than multiple units; wasn't born yet for another decade and a half-ish! I wonder what made multiple units become more popular these days?

Chiltern only have four sets of coaches (plus the limited use commuter set) which serve the purpose of moving heavy loads between London and the West Midlands at peak times. Sending them off to Aberystwyth is not going to work - not to mention that they can't get from Birmingham Snow Hill to Wolverhampton in the first place.

They are already only used where they can be well filled. Running units is more cost effective once the trains are less busy. Some of them run on to Kidderminster.

The Abersytwyth line is single track and the timetable has to be planned around the passing places. Running a higher performance train is not going to be faster than the regional TfW services.

Some good points made, guess we'll just stick to what Arriva Trains Wales originally intended! Since TfW are getting Class 170s from Greater Anglia, maybe they could use these on this service? Of course, the 158s are pretty good too but 170s having a slightly higher top speed of 100 mph instead of 90 could be an advantage on the London to Shropshire section of the route! Doesn't Snow Hill have a link with Smethwick Galton Bridge that would then link to Wolverhampton or are those links from SGB (to WVH and BSW) on different levels of that station?

 

[joncombe]

You'd also need stock able to use the in-cab signalling system (ERTMS) on that line. I think at the moment only TFW 158s and a couple of 37s (or are they 97s) are fitted out. Doesn't preclude fitting it to other types of train of course, but it's another thing that makes such a service more difficult and costly.

 

[JonathanH]

Doesn't Snow Hill have a link with Smethwick Galton Bridge that would then link to Wolverhampton or are those links from SGB (to WVH and BSW) on different levels of that station?

Yes, different levels of station at Smethwick Galton Bridge. The only way you could achieve off the Chiltern line would be going through Birmingham New Street or a more convoluted route with a a reversal at Rowley Regis and then a further diversion via Bescot.

What effectively Arriva Trains Wales proposed was extending their existing 158-operated service beyond Birmingham International into Marylebone. It would be easier for the Welsh operator to extend trains into Marylebone than the Marylebone operator extend trains into Mid Wales. However, whichever way, it isn't going to happen.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

You'd also need stock able to use the in-cab signalling system (ERTMS) on that line. I think at the moment only TFW 158s and a couple of 37s (or are they 97s) are fitted out. Doesn't preclude fitting it to other types of train of course, but it's another thing that makes such a service more difficult and costly.

I've seen an old pic somewhere which implies that 170s used to go to Aberystwyth back in the Central Trains era but that was likely before ERTMS was installed on that line! How hard is it to fit ERTMS equipment to other trains?

 

[transmanche]

I remember in the 80s the sat only Euston to aberystwyth what a train electric to Birmingham new street then a pair of rats (class 25s) to aberystwyth

I recall a number o trips on an electric loco from Euston to Wolverhampton, then a 47 from Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury and (as the train had to reverse there) a pair of 37s taking it forward to Aberystwyth.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Doesn't Snow Hill have a link with Smethwick Galton Bridge that would then link to Wolverhampton or are those links from SGB (to WVH and BSW) on different levels of that station?

There is a direct link chord between the two lines just short of the station, but it works the opposite way from what you would need for this, i.e. you can go from New Street onto the line out of Snow Hill towards Stourbridge Town etc but you cannot go from Snow Hill onto the line out of New Street towards Wolverhampton etc.

There is the chord at Bordesley which would allow access to New Street from the Solihull direction, but you would then have to miss out Moor Street and Snow Hill and also have the problem of finding a path through an already very congested New Street.

 

[Llanigraham]

As a local the first question I would ask is why?

The number of passengers wanting to do this journey is small, and from my experience quite seasonal. At present it is a simple one change journey, generally at either New St or International. I do it often and have never heard a complaint about the changes, even by those who are not as able as me.
To get to Marylebone isn't so easy and very few locals seem to bother even if it is (slightly) cheaper. I think in the 8 years I've been going up to London I have done it twice, and only because I wanted a change. It also takes a bit longer than the more direct Euston service.
Plus there is the option twice a day to get a direct Virgin service from Shrewsbury to Euston which is an even easier change, straight across the platform.

Secondly, as has been stated, you have the problem of no suitable units being equipped with ERTMS equipment. Yes it could be fitted, but it isn't cheap and might need quite a lot of alterations to those units. Not only a new driver's "dash board" needed but all the computer equipment and the under-train sensors. It does take up quite a bit of space and electrical power.

With the up-coming hourly service on the Cambrian it would be difficult to fit these trains into the timetable, especially if they were loco hauled and not multiple units, as there are some quite severe speed limitations between the 2 types is places on the route.

And lastly who is going to run it? Remember that if they aren't TfW Machynlleth staff they are going to have to learn the ERTMS system. I wonder what TfW would charge for that training? I bet it wouldn't be cheap.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If Hitachi 802 bi-modes are coming to the WCML with First Trenitalia (not confirmed), they will be ETCS-ready.
So it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that they could work from Euston over the Cambrian at some point in the future, either via Birmingham or Crewe.
They would need to be doubled up with another service under the wires.
But is there enough demand and priority over other routes?
TfW's proposed fleet (196/Mk4) is unlikely to get beyond its current routes, although at least some 196s will be ETCS-fitted for the Cambrian.
Then there's HS2...

 

[Llanigraham]

But is there enough demand and priority over other routes?

Quite simply, no.

 

[Meerkat]

Better to get on with electrifying to Shrewsbury, building Shrewsbury Parkway, and making those two the railhead for London trains.
Assuming HS2 gets there would there be a demand for Aberystwyth trains to go to Crewe to connect long distance and fast to London, or would demand still be for direct trains to Birmingham (city and airport?)

 

[Llanigraham]

As a local I would suspect there would still be a strong pull from Birmingham, both the city for shopping and theatre, and for the Airport, since there is often no need to change. Crewe doesn't have a lot to offer in either field and going to Manchester really isn't that popular.
And in the reverse direction lots of Midlanders do like heading towards the Cambrian Coast for a short break.

 

[Esker-pades]

I doubt you'll find the paths. Although there is space in some of the hours between Birmingham to Aberystwyth & Pwllheli services, that would leave only a 10 minute turnaround at Aberystwyth (as per other services). With the rolling stock you propose to use, that may be against the timetabling & planning rules. Even if it isn't, you'll have serious practical problems with a service of such a distance and such a short turnaround time.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I am old enough to recall Saturday summer through trains to Aberystwyth with lengthy rakes of MK1 stock and pair of 25's - not very busy at destination to be honest, and later on a very innovative plan which had half a West Coast set split at Wolves , with the standard class coaches (MK2's) going to Aber once a day - and recoupling to the 1st and Buffet section on the return.

To be honest - the present set-up with a cross platform / over the bridge change at International to a planned 4 car with portions for the Coast and Aber is really good , and very well used. Straightforward to. The volume of passenger traffic on the Cambrian main line has grown exponentially since the dark days of the last century , when both lines were struggling for survival with high signalling costs pre RETB and devestating washouts on the Mach - Ynyslas section and severe wood worm on the Barmouth viaduct.

A huge amount of the traffic is West Midlands centric , with comprehensive connections to virtually anywhere.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

There is a direct link chord between the two lines just short of the station, but it works the opposite way from what you would need for this, i.e. you can go from New Street onto the line out of Snow Hill towards Stourbridge Town etc but you cannot go from Snow Hill onto the line out of New Street towards Wolverhampton etc.

There is the chord at Bordesley which would allow access to New Street from the Solihull direction, but you would then have to miss out Moor Street and Snow Hill and also have the problem of finding a path through an already very congested New Street.

Okay, I get it, scrap the Snow Hill idea and stick to New Street and International!

As a local the first question I would ask is why?

The number of passengers wanting to do this journey is small, and from my experience quite seasonal. At present it is a simple one change journey, generally at either New St or International. I do it often and have never heard a complaint about the changes, even by those who are not as able as me.
To get to Marylebone isn't so easy and very few locals seem to bother even if it is (slightly) cheaper. I think in the 8 years I've been going up to London I have done it twice, and only because I wanted a change. It also takes a bit longer than the more direct Euston service.
Plus there is the option twice a day to get a direct Virgin service from Shrewsbury to Euston which is an even easier change, straight across the platform.

Secondly, as has been stated, you have the problem of no suitable units being equipped with ERTMS equipment. Yes it could be fitted, but it isn't cheap and might need quite a lot of alterations to those units. Not only a new driver's "dash board" needed but all the computer equipment and the under-train sensors. It does take up quite a bit of space and electrical power.

With the up-coming hourly service on the Cambrian it would be difficult to fit these trains into the timetable, especially if they were loco hauled and not multiple units, as there are some quite severe speed limitations between the 2 types is places on the route.

And lastly who is going to run it? Remember that if they aren't TfW Machynlleth staff they are going to have to learn the ERTMS system. I wonder what TfW would charge for that training? I bet it wouldn't be cheap.

Some very good points, I suppose you're right! I think changing at Wolverhampton would be easier than Birmingham New Street, but I suppose you get more London trains to choose from if you go Birmingham and there's always International for an easier interchange. Besides, there are two daily coaches to London from Aberystwyth (one NatEx via Shrewsbury & Birmingham and a Megabus via Swansea & Cardiff), which is more affordable anyway and I imagine that's popular with the university students!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Okay, I get it, scrap the Snow Hill idea and stick to New Street and International!

Some very good points, I suppose you're right! I think changing at Wolverhampton would be easier than Birmingham New Street, but I suppose you get more London trains to choose from if you go Birmingham and there's always International for an easier interchange. Besides, there are two daily coaches to London from Aberystwyth (one NatEx via Shrewsbury & Birmingham and a Megabus via Swansea & Cardiff), which is more affordable anyway and I imagine that's popular with the university students!

As well as an hourly bus from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen via Lampeter (free on Sundays !) , which connects with an hourly train to Swansea and Cardiff.

Pretty decent compared to my era I tell you -

 

[iantherev]

As well as an hourly bus from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen via Lampeter (free on Sundays !) , which connects with an hourly train to Swansea and Cardiff.

Pretty decent compared to my era I tell you -

If you’re around the same era as me, the only way in from Shrewsbury on a Sunday was a coach chartered by the Student Union (1980-3).

 

[Ayman Ilham]

As well as an hourly bus from Aberystwyth to Carmarthen via Lampeter (free on Sundays !) , which connects with an hourly train to Swansea and Cardiff.

Pretty decent compared to my era I tell you -

TrawsCymru is pretty neato I'll give you that! Free coach to Cardiff on weekends must make Aberystwyth and Carmarthen excellent places to live right now!

 

[Llanigraham]

From what I see in Aber, most of the students have their own cars.

 

[PeterC]

If you’re around the same era as me, the only way in from Shrewsbury on a Sunday was a coach chartered by the Student Union (1980-3).

In my day term started on a Tuesday so that we could travel on the Monday. In those days (early 70s) we changed at Wolverhampton to a pair of DMUs. There was a lot of faffing at Shrewsbury as we dropped one unit for Chester and picked up another from Cardiff. I have no idea if this was a regular timetabled move or specially for the start of term.

Nostalgia makes me want a through train but I know it isn't a realistic option.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

From what I see in Aber, most of the students have their own cars.

Increasingly so I guess , as well as en-suite facilties in "hall" accommodation. Very soft I tell you.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In my day term started on a Tuesday so that we could travel on the Monday. In those days (early 70s) we changed at Wolverhampton to a pair of DMUs. There was a lot of faffing at Shrewsbury as we dropped one unit for Chester and picked up another from Cardiff. I have no idea if this was a regular timetabled move or specially for the start of term.

Nostalgia makes me want a through train but I know it isn't a realistic option.

It probably was a "planned" move for term. BR always refused to run specials at end / start time as they had been caught" in the past. In December 1977 with a bit of "persuasion" we got the Students Union to charter a 6 car loco hauled (non heat class 40 to Euston) , it made a bit of money. A one off.

Of course , "mobility" was easier in those days , as the collect and deliver BR parcels offer was quite good , and this massively reduced car journeys to / from home. (students used trunks - very little electrical gubbins to shift)

There were some epic journeys - one bloke came from Enniskillen , another from Weymouth , and another from Bexhill. Enough of this Proustian nostalgia.