Disappearing cheap tickets - where are TOCs removing them?

[Perns1972]

I'm interested to find out more about disappearing cheap tickets, such as the withdrawal of early evening off peak tickets on eight routes by Northern last Sept.

Do you know of other TOCs removing cheap ways to travel or having plans to do this shortly?

Thanks,

Matt

 

[Haywain]

Those Northern tickets weren't really compatible with the introduction of evening peak restrictions, were they.

 

[Merseysider]

Nor were the TPE priced ones to stations such as Adlington and Chorley, which TPE quietly got rid of a couple of weeks ago.

You can find a whole thread on the hike in evening prices here.

Virgin have got rid of the lowest tier of advances for flows such as EUS-PRE and EUS-LIV, figuring most people will still make the journey even if it costs them 15% more.

 

[entrente]

I'm suspicious that off peak and advance tickets have been taken away from the 5.00 and 5.24 departures from Wolverhampton to Euston, from ~17 Feb onwards. Single ticket price has jumped from £21 (advance) to £95 (anytime). Can anyone else corroborate?

 

[yorkie]

Nor were the TPE priced ones to stations such as Adlington and Chorley, which TPE quietly got rid of a couple of weeks ago.

You can find a whole thread on the hike in evening prices here.

That's worth a mention; TPE have possibly been colluding with Northern, or at least decided to remove their product in solidarity with/sympathy for Northern.

Virgin have got rid of the lowest tier of advances for flows such as EUS-PRE and EUS-LIV, figuring most people will still make the journey even if it costs them 15% more.

I don't think the withdrawal from sale of the lowest tier of Advance is particularly newsworthy though, though I understand how frustrating it is for people affected. Advance fare availability is always quite changeable.

Good examples are the withdrawal of many fares between London Overground stations and stations outside the London Oyster PAYG/contactless area. In contrast to journeys within this area, where it is more understandable that TfL want to encourage the use of Oyster PAYG/contactless, people who wish to travel without it have no choice but to have a paper ticket for at least part of their journey. It seems absurd to try to encourage such people to do "split ticketing", using Oyster PAYG/contactless for part of the journey and a paper ticket for the other part of their journey. This is causing confusion when people ask for a ticket from origin to destination. They are either told to "split" or they are sold a much more expensive Travelcard or ticket to/from a zonal location such as "U123".

And let's not forget the withdrawal of Off Peak Day fares on many routes. In 2000, you could get such a fare from Doncaster to York for £5. By 2006 this had risen to £9.70. In 2009 this was continuing to rise, at £11.60. But today if you ask for such a ticket, it no longer exists. The only available day return is a whopping £19.00! This is an almost quadrupling of the price in only 15 years. I'm sure forum members can identify other flows where the Off Peak Day fares have been removed.

 

[fowler9]

I think the problem is that the excuse for astronomical walk up fares was that if you could plan ahead you could travel for buttons. Once the advance prices creep up at rates much higher than inflation what do you do? You can't moan because the advance was like an offer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's worth a mention; TPE have possibly been colluding with Northern, or at least decided to remove their product in solidarity with/sympathy for Northern.

Possibly also the more sensible answer that TPE are overcrowded at all times of day and night, and as such price-dumping when Northern aren't also doing so is going to make that worse, as passengers will switch to TPE from Northern, which is not the desired effect. So it might have been for the best that they did.

Neil

 

[Hadders]

Southern have changed the restriction on off-peak tickets from places on the southern WCML to Gatwick Airport (via Kensington Olympia) from 8A to B3.

This has doubled the cost of early morning journeys from places like Northampton and Milton Keynes to Gatwick Airport from around £30 to £60.

 

[Kite159]

That's worth a mention; TPE have possibly been colluding with Northern, or at least decided to remove their product in solidarity with/sympathy for Northern.

I don't think the withdrawal from sale of the lowest tier of Advance is particularly newsworthy though, though I understand how frustrating it is for people affected. Advance fare availability is always quite changeable.

Good examples are the withdrawal of many fares between London Overground stations and stations outside the London Oyster PAYG/contactless area. In contrast to journeys within this area, where it is more understandable that TfL want to encourage the use of Oyster PAYG/contactless, people who wish to travel without it have no choice but to have a paper ticket for at least part of their journey. It seems absurd to try to encourage such people to do "split ticketing", using Oyster PAYG/contactless for part of the journey and a paper ticket for the other part of their journey. This is causing confusion when people ask for a ticket from origin to destination. They are either told to "split" or they are sold a much more expensive Travelcard or ticket to/from a zonal location such as "U123".

And let's not forget the withdrawal of Off Peak Day fares on many routes. In 2000, you could get such a fare from Doncaster to York for £5. By 2006 this had risen to £9.70. In 2009 this was continuing to rise, at £11.60. But today if you ask for such a ticket, it no longer exists. The only available day return is a whopping £19.00! This is an almost quadrupling of the price in only 15 years. I'm sure forum members can identify other flows where the Off Peak Day fares have been removed.

There was a piece in the I yesterday about how a passengers tickets have gone up 20%, he was using advance tickets between Manchester & London which previously were for £15 but now for £17.50.

Simon Reid (I think is the journalist) was making this out to be a great deal, an extra £5 a day to travel on advances.

Take a look at Salisbury to Newport/Cardiff, only return ticket available is an Anytime Return, no day returns, whereas a few years ago there used to be an off-peak day return available

 

[Bletchleyite]

This has doubled the cost of early morning journeys from places like Northampton and Milton Keynes to Gatwick Airport from around £30 to £60.

I wondered when they'd do that - buying past your destination to Gatwick was a bit of a workaround to avoid paying Anytime fares, if I recall.

Neil

 

[yorkie]

Possibly also the more sensible answer that TPE are overcrowded at all times of day and night, and as such price-dumping when Northern aren't also doing so is going to make that worse, as passengers will switch to TPE from Northern, which is not the desired effect. So it might have been for the best that they did.

I think there may be some confusion here. They were not TOC-specific tickets. TPE set some walk-up fares in the areas they serve, Northern set the majority.

 

[VisualAcid]

I used to buy two advances to make a round trip on the Cardiff-Portsmouth route, but now it's pointless because 2 advances are almost as much as any off-peak return.

 

[Hadders]

I wondered when they'd do that - buying past your destination to Gatwick was a bit of a workaround to avoid paying Anytime fares, if I recall.

Neil

Albeit break of journey was barred on the outward portion. Not sure ticket clerks were too clued up on it either. A friend of mine went from Northampton to Gatwick via Kensington Olympia early morning and was sold an Anytime Return when the Off-peak Return would have sufficed.

 

[Starmill]

Possibly also the more sensible answer that TPE are overcrowded at all times of day and night, and as such price-dumping when Northern aren't also doing so is going to make that worse, as passengers will switch to TPE from Northern, which is not the desired effect. So it might have been for the best that they did.

Neil

With all due, respect, I can't help but wonder if the concept of 'price dumping' is a construct that exists exclusively within your head... What you seem to use it to describe is any ticket that is cheaper than another ticket, regardless of what it gets you in return. Is it genuinely your opinion that there should only be one price available for all journeys, and it should be the highest price that's currently available? Culmination of evidence from your previous vociferous opposition to Advance tickets also supports this hypothesis...

NB in the specific example of recently deleted fares, passengers couldn't switch to TPE because they do not stop at Adlington.

 

[pne]

Good examples are the withdrawal of many fares between London Overground stations and stations outside the London Oyster PAYG/contactless area. In contrast to journeys within this area, where it is more understandable that TfL want to encourage the use of Oyster PAYG/contactless, people who wish to travel without it have no choice but to have a paper ticket for at least part of their journey. It seems absurd to try to encourage such people to do "split ticketing", using Oyster PAYG/contactless for part of the journey and a paper ticket for the other part of their journey.

Especially since split ticketing with paper tickets means you can stay on the train, while contactless splitting means you have to get off and walk to a reader, presumably while your through train drives off without you.

If they had contactless readers on trains for people to touch in or out along the way, this sort of thing might make more sense.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I can never understand Virgin's advance ticketing policy, e.g. I regularly use the 6:23 ex-MKC to Crewe, advance for tomorrow is £21 which is fairly typical but if you book a few days in advance it can be just £14. This train is largely empty.

There is a slightly earlier train from MKC to Crewe, 6:15 to Liverpool which gets into Crewe a few minutes earlier. Tomorrow advance costs £72 as it does on Friday, Monday & Tuesday next week is £59, then it drops to £21. This train is also largely empty

 

[Paul Kelly]

I have noticed the situation with the drastically different advance quotas on these two trains before too. My best guess is that they see the 0615 train as a prime commuter service to Liverpool and thus don't want to undercut the anytime fares they can charge on it. The reduced quota availability affects passengers to/from intermediate stations too.

 

[Greeby]

I can never understand Virgin's advance ticketing policy, e.g. I regularly use the 6:23 ex-MKC to Crewe, advance for tomorrow is £21 which is fairly typical but if you book a few days in advance it can be just £14. This train is largely empty.

There is a slightly earlier train from MKC to Crewe, 6:15 to Liverpool which gets into Crewe a few minutes earlier. Tomorrow advance costs £72 as it does on Friday, Monday & Tuesday next week is £59, then it drops to £21. This train is also largely empty

Because it's still one of only three direct trains to Liverpool. (The 08:38 and 21:37 being the others) So just about everyone on that train has snapped up a cheap advance. The 06:23 was similar in that it was the only direct one to Glasgow. Now that there is a full Anglo-Scottish timetable, it's not as in demand as it used to be.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Because it's still one of only three direct trains to Liverpool. (The 08:38 and 21:37 being the others) So just about everyone on that train has snapped up a cheap advance.

Ah yes; the fact that the advance quota has been used up by other passengers makes even more sense than my suggestion that it is being artificially restricted.

 

[entrente]

I posted a while back: "I'm suspicious that off peak and advance tickets have been taken away from the 5.00 and 5.24 departures from Wolverhampton to Euston, from ~17 Feb onwards. Single ticket price has jumped from £21 (advance) to £95 (anytime). Can anyone else corroborate?"

In case anyone's interested, I've since worked out that 5.00 and 5.22 trains are still running (with advance and offpeak tickets), it's just I can no longer buy the train as part of a ticket through London to another destination.

So actually not a big impact on me, as I can either buy a second ticket or use oyster for the remainder of the journey. Not clear why they've withdrawn those tickets though.

 

[Paul Kelly]

In case anyone's interested, I've since worked out that 5.00 and 5.22 trains are still running (with advance and offpeak tickets), it's just I can no longer buy the train as part of a ticket through London to another destination.

Does travel to this other destination involve a Southeastern train, by any chance? There have been some issues with Southeastern blocking availability of other TOCs' advances recently.

 

[D6975]

Does travel to this other destination involve a Southeastern train, by any chance? There have been some issues with Southeastern blocking availability of other TOCs' advances recently.

ooo errr..
See what you mean.
Bristol-Ashford via St P doesn't seem to go below £66 for a single. I did it for about £24 last year.

Lowest tier of FC advances on FGW has vanished from most routes too, not surprising given the reduction of FC in the HST sets.

 

[Haywain]

There have been some issues with Southeastern blocking availability of other TOCs' advances recently.

This probably being an unintended consequence of introducing their own Advance fares, but allowing them to manage their time restrictions.

 

[Cletus]

Trying to get some information through Southeastern myself, but their email contact procedure is very slow.
They haven't brought in their advance fares yet, only "super" off peak fares.

 

[johnnychips]

What a barmy world! Thank goodness for this forum. I wanted to go from Donny to Bangor and back last Saturday on a whim, and it would have cast £76 odd. By guessing I could split at Stockport and Chester, I got it down to £57 odd (and no doubt there are people on here who could have got it cheaper). But why should 'normal' passengers have to pay more than necessary? Are the split ticket sites any good?

 

[Merseysider]

What a barmy world! Thank goodness for this forum. I wanted to go from Donny to Bangor and back last Saturday on a whim, and it would have cast £76 odd. By guessing I could split at Stockport and Chester, I got it down to £57 odd (and no doubt there are people on here who could have got it cheaper). But why should 'normal' passengers have to pay more than necessary? Are the split ticket sites any good?

Normal passengers shouldn't have to, but this is what happens when pricing is left to individual companies. And the rail industry loves deforestation! Longer journeys can quite easily end up being 5 splits or more.

Trainsplit is excellent, but lacks some of the flexibility on route that TCBC used to come up with, however I have heard this will be improving in the near future.

Quite frankly, most people don't bother splitting, so the tocs don't bother with sensible pricing - they know most people will pay over the odds (ahem Crosscountry).