Discussion of not advertising departure platforms until a few minutes before departure

[Highlandspring]

A switched on passenger at Queen Street can usually figure out which platform they need from the stock sitting in it.

Or you can consult the printed docker and ‘moves sheet’ which lives on a clipboard on top of a box at the concourse end of platform 5. The platform staff don’t like you looking at it though!

 

[White Ant]

This problem also applies to Eurostar trains, with people in the furthest coaches really struggling to reach them ahead of departure time, as they are only allowed onto the platform shortly before departure time. I thought this might be to ensure people didn't get on the wrong train until I travelled to Brussels on a Sunday Morning recently - it was the second train out, and the first train out had long gone, yet there was still a very limited time given to board.

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

This (platform numbers not being shown until a few minutes before departure) is something that always baffles me. Interestingly, it isn’t the same across continental Europe either. Like in Britain, France and I believe also the Czech Republic (at least www.cd.cz doesn’t show more than a couple of platforms) advertise the platform number only a few minutes before departure, whereas Germany’s platform numbers are known since the last timetable change; even at terminal stations like Frankfurt (Main) Hbf, Hamburg-Altona or Stuttgart Hbf (arguably, none of these stations are as busy as London terminals, especially considering that S-Bahn (suburban) trains have through underground stations at all these terminal stations). The French-German TV channel Arte even had a small segment on it on its Karambolage show:

(in German),

(in French)

 

[Fearless]

On the other hand, if you're travelling long distance in the USA on Amtrak, from major stations like Chicago Union and NY Penn, you can't even SEE the platforms from the station. When the train is ready to board, they'll open a gate and escort you into the subterranean darkness where an awesome pair of P42s and a rake of hotel-on-wheels is waiting for you. More like airport operations at those stations.

 

[Leisurefirst]

h
No you are not being silly. In fact you have highlighted one of biggest bugbears of the UK rail operating system. A couple of examples I have come across is Paddington-Penzance announcement of platform four minutes before departure and 3-400 people all struggling through the gates with luggage, Passengers with toddler carriers, and young children all in danger of either being crushed, pushed to the ground and so on; and the elderly and frail also being put in danger.

Then again at stations such as Paddington, Kings Cross, Euston, Waterloo and Victoria, where there maybe many passengers un-used to the stations having to get from one end of the station to the other with two to three minutes, pass through the gates and board the train. Not everyone can use a website like realtimetrains to see what platform the train may be leaving and to be honest these sites áre not the most accurate especially with last minute changes. More often then not, the trains are well prepared for passengers to be ready to board before the platform announcement. Doors are lockable these days and passengers can be allowed to walk onto the platform 10-15 minutes before departure and wait by the carriages. This would stop the potentially dangerous pushing and crushing of passengers.

Absolutely, the last three I think times we have travelled from Paddington to the West Country, the platform has not been advertised until less than five minutes before departure plus seat reservations cancelled, cue manic rush especially panic inducing for those with "hidden" disabilities and ructions and major unpleasantness on board when people with seat reservations board and find others (legitimately) in their seats...even worse once you get further West.
Often can't even get onto the platform even when you either know the platform in advance or can guess by the arrival/rolling stock as staff on the gates turn them all to no entry.
Managed to avoid bad situation last time by entering via platform 11(?) gate and manoevering around to 9 or whichever it was to grab seats when we had already got reservations.
Totally agree with comment from earlier poster too regarding booking assistance.
Often the very disability means you would not be able to arrive early enough for this plus the look I got when starting to ask at the desk to ask for assistance at Paddington to the H&C line after arriving with somebody fresh out of hospital (but outside) was a picture until I explained it wasn't for me and why. Try that when it's for you and you "look O.K."

 

[cf111]

A switched on passenger at Queen Street can usually figure out which platform they need from the stock sitting in it. If it's a long 156, it's for the West Highland, a short 156 is usually Anniesland (now the Cumbernaulds go from Low Level), a long 170 is for Inverness or Aberdeen, and the Edinburgh hasn't arrived yet.

Granted there's usually a 3-car 170 lying around to confuse matters, as it could be going anywhere, but at least you know which end of the gateline to loiter at most of the time. Once the full electric service comes in on the E&G and the HSTs come in on Express routes, it'll be easier.

I always go through the barrier before the train is announced and loiter there as there's plenty room, then at least I have a head-start before the traditional 7-minute stampede for the train north...

 

[Steve Harris]

The old railway didn't have doors which could be locked, so I'm not really sure what the comparison here is.

I'm afraid they did !!

That's what T keys were for back in the day.

Would you believe it, the old railway even used to lock passengers in on moving trains.

 

[sheff1]

The 'reasons' put forward as to why a train cannot be locked and passengers allowed onto the platform ready for when they are opened are not convincing.

At Sheffield a terminating EMT train from St Pancras will, after everyone has alighted, have its doors locked whilst servicing takes place. The platform will be advertised, early arrivers will go and wait by the locked train and then board when the doors are opened. The more aware passengers will even suss out where their reserved seat is located and stand by the appropriate door !

At St Pancras, however, there is none of this. Passengers are held back until the platform is advertised, which is often well after the cleaners etc have left, and then there is crush at the barriers followed a stampede up the platform which is made worse when a train for Sheffield and one for Nottingham are leaving from the same platform a few minutes apart and the platform number is advertised for both at the same time.

If the doors can be locked/unlocked with apparent ease at Sheffield, why not in London ?

 

[MotCO]

Isn't the answer to display the platform before the incoming train has arrived, but show it in red text. Outgoing passengers can then amble along the platform but stand back from the platform edge. Then the train arrives, passenges disembark, there's no on-coming rush of new passengers, and incoming passengers can leave the platform relatively easily (the out-going passengers have to stand away from the train). Then the train is cleaned and prepared, and when ready, the departure boards turn green and passngers told they can embark. It does require some training for passengers, but if it is sold as being a new idea to help passengers etc., then they should react positively.

 

[Mintona]

Lots of stock swaps. More than you’d imagine.

 

[sheff1]

Isn't the answer to display the platform before the incoming train has arrived, but show it in red text. Outgoing passengers can then amble along the platform but stand back from the platform edge. Then the train arrives, passenges disembark, there's no on-coming rush of new passengers, and incoming passengers can leave the platform relatively easily (the out-going passengers have to stand away from the train).

My preference, to avoid conflict of movement as much as possible, at long distance termini would be to allow the alighting passengers to pass through the barriers and then advertise the platform so that people could make their way there without crushing or rushing. The cleaners etc are usually on the platform as the trains arrive (at St Pancras anyway) so would be on board with the doors locked before the first outbound passenger reached the train.

Seats on the platform would be helpful, but not essential, as would be an announcement that the train is being cleaned and the doors will be unlocked in plenty of time for departure.

 

[47271]

I recognise just about everything that's already been said in this thread. Euston in particular generates the highest levels of passenger stress. RTT is the only way for the individual to try to reduce that - on recent experience of boarding a delayed Glasgow service on P3 at Euston I'd guess that around 12-15 of us were in the loop and at the barrier ahead of the scrum. A few knowing looks from the staff and we all trotted round as the tsunami followed off the concourse. And on it flowed for the best part of ten minutes, and we departed quite late because of it. Could they have handled it better? I doubt it - I watched the arrival of the inbound service, the hordes tipping out, the servicing and cleaning, and they announced the platform not a second later than was absolutely essential.

A positive word: never once have a I felt the same pressure at Manchester Piccadilly. London trains always seemed to be managed in a way that, whether there's disruption or not, things rarely get pressured. Maybe I've been lucky.

Scotrail long distance evening services are irritating: both the 1741 Edinburgh-Inverness and the 1811 Queen Street-Inverness are a real pain to board at their origins. The first because it gets held locked and unannounced behind an Aberdeen train until about four minutes before departure. The second because the set is on a ludicrously tight turnround on an incoming service from Falkirk Grahamston. Both symptoms of a railway bursting at the seams I think.

 

[Hughby]

Isn't the answer to display the platform before the incoming train has arrived, but show it in red text. Outgoing passengers can then amble along the platform but stand back from the platform edge. Then the train arrives, passenges disembark, there's no on-coming rush of new passengers, and incoming passengers can leave the platform relatively easily (the out-going passengers have to stand away from the train). Then the train is cleaned and prepared, and when ready, the departure boards turn green and passngers told they can embark. It does require some training for passengers, but if it is sold as being a new idea to help passengers etc., then they should react positively.

Possibly, if all travellers were sensible RailUK members , or maybe in a different world where people naturally put the collective good before individual advantage. In this world the platform passengers would not all stand back, would not all leave a path for departing passengers, would not all wait for the train to be cleaned...

It's probably better to think of the passengers as young children and the train seat/luggage space as a free sweet shop and plan your crowd control around that!

Note: I put myself in the 'Individual Advantage' class as I use RTT to get an advantage.

 

[frodshamfella]

Euston does this a lot, it is not pleasant at all.

 

[Shafina patel]

At Waterloo as a wheelchair user, even booking assistance doesn't help as you don't get any headstart during disruption as the staff regularly only know the platform at the same as the masses. If you are waiting at the official RV for assistance (main station reception), it's unlikely that you'll get from there, across a crowded concourse to the platform and still be able to get on the train either through overcrowding or the time taken. During recent disruption I've been sent to try and board several trains only to either watch them pull out before the ramp wrangler arrived or to find them so packed that a wheelchair user can't fit on

From experience they usually board vulnerable/wheelchair passengers before the platform is announced . They all have access to the p2 so they should know where the train is before it's annouced instead of relying on the departure boards. Just poor planning if this isn't the case...

 

[boxy321]

Waiting at Euston yesterday evening I sighed inwardly at the automated announcements urging passengers not to run while on the station, knowing full well what I would be doing the moment the platform was finally revealed for the (jam-packed, as it turned out) five-coach Voyager working the 1943 towards Wolverhampton....

The words 'Voyager' and 'Euston' should be mutually exclusive. I boarded a London bound 18:30 from New St last night and it was 9-coach Pendolino replacing a 5-coach Voyager. Even that was a bit busy.

 

[underbank]

Isn't the answer to display the platform before the incoming train has arrived, but show it in red text. ..... Then the train is cleaned and prepared, and when ready, the departure boards turn green and passngers told they can embark. It does require some training for passengers, but if it is sold as being a new idea to help passengers etc., then they should react positively.

Probably against the disability discrimination act as colour blind people would struggle with that.

 

[route101]

Or you can consult the printed docker and ‘moves sheet’ which lives on a clipboard on top of a box at the concourse end of platform 5. The platform staff don’t like you looking at it though!

See a lot of people waiting on the other side of the barriers , still can see the board.

 

[route101]

On the other hand, if you're travelling long distance in the USA on Amtrak, from major stations like Chicago Union and NY Penn, you can't even SEE the platforms from the station. When the train is ready to board, they'll open a gate and escort you into the subterranean darkness where an awesome pair of P42s and a rake of hotel-on-wheels is waiting for you. More like airport operations at those stations.

Like that in China and similar to Barcelona Sants

 

[infobleep]

The inwards set could have been delayed leading to a tight turnround. They could of course not bother to clean it to try and expedite an earlier boarding but that would lead to complaints as well!

I wonder if the train was advertised as being on time, 5 minutes before departure?

 

[OneOffDave]

From experience they usually board vulnerable/wheelchair passengers before the platform is announced . They all have access to the p2 so they should know where the train is before it's annouced instead of relying on the departure boards. Just poor planning if this isn't the case...

I commute through Waterloo most days. On days where trains arrive on time on the 'right' platforms, there are always people waiting in significant numbers on the platform before the incoming service arrives. During disruption the assistance staff only know 1-2 minutes before the platforms go up on the boards. It can make it very 'interesting' soemtimes

 

[Bletchleyite]

The words 'Voyager' and 'Euston' should be mutually exclusive. I boarded a London bound 18:30 from New St last night and it was 9-coach Pendolino replacing a 5-coach Voyager. Even that was a bit busy.

There are a few services for which a single Voyager is adequate - for instance the 1610 to the North Wales Coast is not overcrowded, being the only "peak" train on that route. I think by and large VTWC make very good use of their fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably against the disability discrimination act as colour blind people would struggle with that.

What you do is show the platform *and* show "Preparing" and "Boarding", with the latter only being shown when the doors are actually open. Like a good many airports do.

And...to add to that...what *is* it with alternating the platform with timekeeping information? Was it another £2.50 to have enough lines on the display to show both at the same time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly, if all travellers were sensible RailUK members , or maybe in a different world where people naturally put the collective good before individual advantage. In this world the platform passengers would not all stand back, would not all leave a path for departing passengers, would not all wait for the train to be cleaned...

It's probably better to think of the passengers as young children and the train seat/luggage space as a free sweet shop and plan your crowd control around that!

Note: I put myself in the 'Individual Advantage' class as I use RTT to get an advantage.

TBH as I've said before I see the solution as being to make reservations available much later and more widely at least from termini. This could be done by having reserved and unreserved coaches rather than marking, or by using the electronic systems - but you should be able to take a reservation (with seat selection) from a TVM, ticket office or your phone right up to the point the doors are released at the terminus. Then the problem would be much reduced.

You could even hold some back for those able to present a Disabled Persons Railcard even after all the rest have gone, for instance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like that in China and similar to Barcelona Sants

From experience (that's where I've been the past 2 and a bit weeks) China still has an almighty scrum even though their trains are fully reserved! I think there's something in the mentality there - it is very push-and-shove and everyone-for-themselves generally.

TBH, as a whole (both Governmentally and in terms of individual mentalities) we are more communist than them.

 

[route101]

A switched on passenger at Queen Street can usually figure out which platform they need from the stock sitting in it. If it's a long 156, it's for the West Highland, a short 156 is usually Anniesland (now the Cumbernaulds go from Low Level), a long 170 is for Inverness or Aberdeen, and the Edinburgh hasn't arrived yet.

Granted there's usually a 3-car 170 lying around to confuse matters, as it could be going anywhere, but at least you know which end of the gateline to loiter at most of the time. Once the full electric service comes in on the E&G and the HSTs come in on Express routes, it'll be easier.

Long 170 as a 6 car usually an Edinburgh service in my book

 

[jon0844]

From experience (that's where I've been the past 2 and a bit weeks) China still has an almighty scrum even though their trains are fully reserved! I think there's something in the mentality there - it is very push-and-shove and everyone-for-themselves generally.

TBH, as a whole (both Governmentally and in terms of individual mentalities) we are more communist than them.

Isn't the rush because of people wanting to store bags as close as possible?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the rush because of people wanting to store bags as close as possible?

It could well be that, though on the high speed sets the overhead luggage space is more than ample. (They seem to be slightly bigger than UIC gauge, meaning big racks).

 

[Taunton]

You can always do the Marylebone approach, of sending the train off without putting it up on the board at all, on time departure reporting being more important than anyone waiting at the barrier who has bought a ticket.

This happened through a combination of minimal evening staffing at the barrier, a procedure that where trains are double-docked in a platform the second one is not announced until the first has left, and the long walk to the "new" platforms on the left.

 

[Clip]

And I'm still waiting for an explanation of why the UK is so different that it can't just let people wait on the platform like most of the rest of the world does.

From my experience of working 5/7 days a week at a mainljne london terminal or two is simply that people of the uk will always try and board the train, even through doors theyre not allowed through. Blame your fellow countryman