Disproportionate Fine

[Shilpa]

A bit of advise please. I genuinely didn’t realise my Disabled Persons Railcard had expired. I normally get a three year card. For some reason I only did a year last time. Stupid I know, so no judgements please.
The cost of the ticket was £7.05, so the saving was only £2.33.

The staff member at the station said when the letter from Northern Trains arrives, to explain my error and it’d be fine. Only it wasn’t.
I have been fined £104.40.

I would never dream of trying to cheat the system. I mean, who would just to save a couple of pounds, never mind on the back of their condition.

I accept that I made a mistake but the amount is extortionate.

Would I be able to maybe negotiate an amount?

£104.40 for accidentally underpaying £2.33 seems crazy.


Report

 

[Nova1]

I’d assume the £104.40 is an offer for out of court settlement, so it’s very unlikely they’d be willing to negotiate a smaller amount (as offering you an out of court settlement is them being nice - they could just take you to court and they’d win)

If it is an out of court settlement offer then I’d take it, if you pay it now it will go away forever. If it is taken to court it will definitely end up costing you more than £100.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Note that they don’t have to offer a settlement at all, and can withdraw the offer at any time. They may just do that if you try to get them to reduce it.

The amount is pretty standard. As stated above, they have you over a barrel, and you will be convicted and have to pay more if it goes to court. You wanted advice, and here it is: pay the settlement immediately. It’s the only sensible option here. I’d be surprised if anyone else said anything different.

The amount may seem disproportionate, and perhaps it is. But, as well as the above, you have to consider that they have incurred costs in dealing with this matter, they want to deter you and others from committing this offence in the future, and they may be assuming that you’ve probably done the same thing before (though, if they had evidence of this, the amount would be a lot more, if they offered a settlement at all).

Pay it, put it down to experience, and move on.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

At a guess, the £104.40 is made up of a train fare (£4.40) plus administrative costs (£100.00).

If that's the case, then the £100 is clearly a round sum - that is, no one has sat down and worked out that it cost exactly £100 to process your case. That's because keeping exact tabs on how much work costs is of itself an expensive exercise: to put it another way, instead of one person doing the work, you've got one person doing the work, and one other person watching them to see how long they have taken - which means that somehow the cost of the second person also has to be paid for. So the £100 has an element of a 'best guess' about it.

But - accepting that this is no more than a best guess - let's do some rough sums.

Assume that whoever has been looking at your case is paid £25,000 per year.
Let's also assume that they work 250 days per year (5 days a week for 50 weeks)

That means that the cost of a day of their time is £100. So if they have spent a day dealing with your case, then that's your £100 administration charge.

Of course, they may have spent less than a day. But the chances are that their employer has provided a desk for them to work at, and a computer to work on, and has paid the employer's contribution to National Insurance, and so on. All of these things add up - and would mean that it would take less than a day to run up £100 in costs.

I'm with the commenters above who suggest that you need to pay up - but this might give you some idea of where the total has come from.

 

[skyhigh]

I'm not making any judgement, but at the end of the day it's your responsibility to make sure you are carrying your railcard and that it is valid and in date. The sum they're asking may seem large compared to the fare, but if you decline to pay it they will almost certainly take you to court and win - in which case the fine will be probably be higher than the settlement they have offered.

If I were you I'd pay the settlement.

 

[WesternLancer]

A bit of advise please. I genuinely didn’t realise my Disabled Persons Railcard had expired. I normally get a three year card. For some reason I only did a year last time. Stupid I know, so no judgements please.
The cost of the ticket was £7.05, so the saving was only £2.33.

The staff member at the station said when the letter from Northern Trains arrives, to explain my error and it’d be fine. Only it wasn’t.
I have been fined £104.40.

I would never dream of trying to cheat the system. I mean, who would just to save a couple of pounds, never mind on the back of their condition.

I accept that I made a mistake but the amount is extortionate.

Would I be able to maybe negotiate an amount?

£104.40 for accidentally underpaying £2.33 seems crazy.


Report

Your only alternative to the above advice would seem to be to respond to them, apologise again for your mistake, and ask them for a lower settlement if they would consider it - esp if money is tight and / or if you are on benefits etc, and are able to demonstrate that to them (without too much detail). It may be worth asking them and stating that you see the penalty as unfairly harsh.

As others have posted given you have made the error and are thus guilty if they choose to prosecute, it's possible that they may re-consider given it is a disabled railcard (I mean it surely does not look good taking a disabled person to court over a small sum related to this error, even though it would seem to me that you would automatically be found guilty - but you might need to be prepared to actually go to court, and be present in front of the magistrates to see that through, and that is a risk of itself).

A variation on this approach (with less risk of it going wrong on terms of them withdrawing the offer and taking you to court) may be to pay the sum requested, and then make the argument to them or to customer services afterwards. That would at least avoid court, and if they did not refund you anything you have nothing to loose by asking.

Most of the 'forgotten railcard has expired' cases on this thread since covid have been related to Young Person's Railcards, so I am unsure if they would take a less harsh approach ref Disabled Railcard holders.

Probably best to renew your Railcard ASAP to show that you have no intention of this happening again, but I suspect you have already done that anyway.

 

[gray1404]

Staff on the grounds need to stop making statements assuring customers that everything will be fine when it won't be. So today we have your post where a member of staff said if you explain your area to Northern everything will be fine. Another post today when when somebody's phone ran out of charge they were told that they would be able to send a copy of their ticket and railcard in and have a penalty fare cancelled. This never happened and that person had to appeal three times before it was overturned, the penalty fare.

Does your disability prevent you in any way from using the ticket fine facilities at the station where you started your journey? Or whether indeed any tickets selling facilities at all at the station where you started your journey?

 

[6Gman]

At a guess, the £104.40 is made up of a train fare (£4.40) plus administrative costs (£100.00).

If that's the case, then the £100 is clearly a round sum - that is, no one has sat down and worked out that it cost exactly £100 to process your case. That's because keeping exact tabs on how much work costs is of itself an expensive exercise: to put it another way, instead of one person doing the work, you've got one person doing the work, and one other person watching them to see how long they have taken - which means that somehow the cost of the second person also has to be paid for. So the £100 has an element of a 'best guess' about it.

But - accepting that this is no more than a best guess - let's do some rough sums.

Assume that whoever has been looking at your case is paid £25,000 per year.
Let's also assume that they work 250 days per year (5 days a week for 50 weeks)

That means that the cost of a day of their time is £100. So if they have spent a day dealing with your case, then that's your £100 administration charge.

Of course, they may have spent less than a day. But the chances are that their employer has provided a desk for them to work at, and a computer to work on, and has paid the employer's contribution to National Insurance, and so on. All of these things add up - and would mean that it would take less than a day to run up £100 in costs.

I'm with the commenters above who suggest that you need to pay up - but this might give you some idea of where the total has come from.

Agree with this view, but it's actually more reasonable than that. Firstly nobody will be contracted to work 50 weeks - annual leave & bank holidays probably take it down to 47. On average people take around 5 days sick pa so that's 46 x 5days, so 230 days. Add in pension contributions, Employer National Insurance.

And then make allowance for the fact that a proportion of their time will be wasted (chasing up false names, people with no assets etc) and £100 per incident seems less unreasonable.

 

[skyhigh]

Does your disability prevent you in any way from using the ticket fine facilities at the station where you started your journey? Or whether indeed any tickets selling facilities at all at the station where you started your journey?

That's irrelevant when a ticket was already held as the passenger was obviously able to purchase a ticket as they had one - it would have been a valid argument if no ticket was held.

 

[Shilpa]

Staff on the grounds need to stop making statements assuring customers that everything will be fine when it won't be. So today we have your post where a member of staff said if you explain your area to Northern everything will be fine. Another post today when when somebody's phone ran out of charge they were told that they would be able to send a copy of their ticket and railcard in and have a penalty fare cancelled. This never happened and that person had to appeal three times before it was overturned, the penalty fare.

Does your disability prevent you in any way from using the ticket fine facilities at the station where you started your journey? Or whether indeed any tickets selling facilities at all at the station where you started your journey?

I have epilepsy, so not a disability as such. But no, it’s not grounds for my error. My medication affects my memory unfortunately, but I appreciate that even that doesn’t excuse the disorganisation that is my life.

Your only alternative to the above advice would seem to be to respond to them, apologise again for your mistake, and ask them for a lower settlement if they would consider it - esp if money is tight and / or if you are on benefits etc, and are able to demonstrate that to them (without too much detail). It may be worth asking them and stating that you see the penalty as unfairly harsh.

As others have posted given you have made the error and are thus guilty if they choose to prosecute, it's possible that they may re-consider given it is a disabled railcard (I mean it surely does not look good taking a disabled person to court over a small sum related to this error, even though it would seem to me that you would automatically be found guilty - but you might need to be prepared to actually go to court, and be present in front of the magistrates to see that through, and that is a risk of itself).

A variation on this approach (with less risk of it going wrong on terms of them withdrawing the offer and taking you to court) may be to pay the sum requested, and then make the argument to them or to customer services afterwards. That would at least avoid court, and if they did not refund you anything you have nothing to loose by asking.

Most of the 'forgotten railcard has expired' cases on this thread since covid have been related to Young Person's Railcards, so I am unsure if they would take a less harsh approach ref Disabled Railcard holders.

Probably best to renew your Railcard ASAP to show that you have no intention of this happening again, but I suspect you have already done that anyway.

Thank you. I have decided to appeal, not about being fined, but the amount.
The timing of the fine is pretty lousy. Just after Christmas, energy bills hiked up, both my twins decided to go to Uni in September and to add to all that, work is sporadic. Depending on what they say, I’ll see if I can negotiate instalments.
thanks again.

 

[scrapy]

Possibly if the OPs disability prevents them from being able to see the date on the card clearly, they may have a case? (after all there is no option for a braille railcard).

 

[Alex365Dash]

Possibly if the OPs disability prevents them from being able to see the date on the card clearly, they may have a case? (after all there is no option for a braille railcard).

Actually, there is - I’ve seen the option for a Braille sticker on the online form for a Disabled Persons Railcard, although it describes it as helping to identify your railcard so unsure if it has the expiry date in Braille as well. I’d hope so…

 

[gray1404]

If the Op could return and describe the journey that they made: the starting and finishing stations along with the time of day that may be helpful.

 

[skyhigh]

Thank you. I have decided to appeal, not about being fined, but the amount.

Just as a word of warning, you haven't been 'fined' (though I appreciate it feels that way) so there's no set appeal process - if they wanted to they are free to withdraw the offer and prosecute without any further discussion, so bear that in mind when you're communicating with them.

 

[gray1404]

How did you come to purchase your discounted ticket? Did the booking office not ask to see it? Which station did you start your journey from?

 

[Shilpa]

If the Op could return and describe the journey that they made: the starting and finishing stations along with the time of day that may be helpful.

Hi, I was going from Wigan to Blackpool on a Saturday lunchtime. On the letter they stated that the full cost of the fare was £14.40. But it was £7.10 without the discount.

How did you come to purchase your discounted ticket? Did the booking office not ask to see it? Which station did you start your journey from?

It was purchased online. The problem is my railcard is electronic on an app. So I never look at it. If I had a paper one I would have realised the expiry date. I even had to restart the app to view it as I rarely use the trains and during lockdown I didn’t use them at all.

 

[Haywain]

Hi, I was going from Wigan to Blackpool on a Saturday lunchtime. On the letter they stated that the full cost of the fare was £14.40. But it was £7.10 without the discount.

That can't be right - you said in your opening post that you had paid £7.05. That would make the fare around £10.60.
The fare for Wigan yo Blackpool is actually around £14.00 to £14.60, depending on whether it was a single or return.

 

[Shilpa]

That can't be right - you said in your opening post that you had paid £7.05. That would make the fare around £10.60.
The fare for Wigan yo Blackpool is actually around £14.00 to £14.60, depending on whether it was a single or return.

No, the full price of the ticket was £7.05. The discount game me £2ish off. I think my daughter still has the ticket. I’ll send a photo of it if she still has. I know the price was right otherwise the inspector would have notices that too.

 

[janb]

There are Advance singles available on that route for £7 or £7.30. The existence of these, and the £7.30 is available on the day, gives people a misleading impression of what the 'normal' cost is.

For a settlement they are working with Anytime Day Single for £14.40, plus in this case evidently a £90 fee.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. I have decided to appeal, not about being fined, but the amount.
The timing of the fine is pretty lousy. Just after Christmas, energy bills hiked up, both my twins decided to go to Uni in September and to add to all that, work is sporadic. Depending on what they say, I’ll see if I can negotiate instalments.
thanks again.

Good luck with this, I think worth a try - but do bear in mind and weigh up the points others have made in recent posts above. This isn't a fine you can appeal (but worth asking of course for a lower settlement) - what has happened (sadly) is that by travelling without a valid railcard on a railcard discounted ticket you have traveled without a valid ticket. Not having a valid ticket is strictly speaking a criminal offence, which you would be found guilty of in court if they opted to take you to court over this. Then the court would impose a fine (based on your income) and you would also need to pay for the correct ticket etc.

That is the trade off you are making if they withdraw their offer for you to settle the matter without them taking you to court.

Northern also have some incentive to settle with you as the payment goes all to Northern in any settlement. If they take you to court the court fine goes to 'the government' / the court, the railway would get only the ticket money owed plus a victim charge IIRC. Your incentive to settle with them meanwhile is that the court fine could be higher than this and you would have a criminal record too.

It would seem to me to be churlish of them to withdraw their offer to you if you asked for a lower sum or the ability to pay in installments, considering the circumstances of this case (disability, oversight ref railcard lapsed, small sum concerned, one off incident) , but I can't think of cases on here in the last year or so where such an approach has been tried so can not say either way if it might work or not. Others my recall such cases however.

Of course as things progress do update the thread as I am sure people would happily give you continued advice, or assistance with any draft letters you may be writing to them.

In any letter to them I would include a phrase like 'I had no intention of evading the correct fare'.

 

[gray1404]

Now that we have the journey details we have been able to establish that there was an opportunity to purchase before boarding. There would have been ticket machines understaffed ticket office at that time of day. We have also been able to establish that the poster's disability does not hinder them from using any such facilities. I would therefore advised that the poster pays the settlements been offered by Northern in full and within the time frame given. Borrow the money from somewhere if you don't have it but it is highly unlikely northern will agree to payments by installments so I would just get this paid off and the matter closed urgently. Should you wish to make a complaint afterwards about the amount of the settlement or the circumstances then of course you are entitled to do that.

 

[WesternLancer]

Now that we have the journey details we have been able to establish that there was an opportunity to purchase before boarding. There would have been ticket machines understaffed ticket office at that time of day. We have also been able to establish that the poster's disability does not hinder them from using any such facilities. I would therefore advised that the poster pays the settlements been offered by Northern in full and within the time frame given. Borrow the money from somewhere if you don't have it but it is highly unlikely northern will agree to payments by installments so I would just get this paid off and the matter closed urgently. Should you wish to make a complaint afterwards about the amount of the settlement or the circumstances then of course you are entitled to do that.

This is a fair point but it somewhat misses the key point - the OP admits that they simply forgot to check that their railcard was still valid. They never would have looked for ticket buying facilities because they already had a ticket that they mistakenly believed was valid. I don't think the OP was asking for advice on loopholes that may be worth pursuing, more that the penalty was disproportionate and advice ref would there be any chance of it being reduced on request.

I do agree with your point about paying what has been requested and trying to pursue it further afterwards to see if it is possible to get some of the money back as a good will gesture (esp as Northern's gateline staff indicated, unhelpfully as it turns out, that there would not be a severe penalty, when in fact I assume the OP has been threatened with court action if they do not pay the sum now being requested).

 

[skyhigh]

Now that we have the journey details we have been able to establish that there was an opportunity to purchase before boarding. There would have been ticket machines understaffed ticket office at that time of day. We have also been able to establish that the poster's disability does not hinder them from using any such facilities.

That is irrelevant. If you have bought an incorrect ticket you clearly cannot argue that you had no way to purchase a ticket. Trying to argue that you had a disability which meant you could buy a ticket on your phone but not the right ticket would simply be taking the mick in my opinion.

 

[Class800]

A bit of advise please. I genuinely didn’t realise my Disabled Persons Railcard had expired. I normally get a three year card. For some reason I only did a year last time. Stupid I know, so no judgements please.
The cost of the ticket was £7.05, so the saving was only £2.33.

The staff member at the station said when the letter from Northern Trains arrives, to explain my error and it’d be fine. Only it wasn’t.
I have been fined £104.40.

I would never dream of trying to cheat the system. I mean, who would just to save a couple of pounds, never mind on the back of their condition.

I accept that I made a mistake but the amount is extortionate.

Would I be able to maybe negotiate an amount?

£104.40 for accidentally underpaying £2.33 seems crazy.


Report

The OP hasn't stated his disability, which is his right, and can be a challenging thing to do in forums. Maybe this one would be better if someone would take forward using a PM? For me, the key thing is what is the disability, and would it account for the forgetting. So, if the disability is cognitive, it may be quite different than if it was purely physical. Companies under Equality Act have the obligation to make reasonable adjustments for disability. It could be that the company failed to do this here, but it would depend on what the disability is. I do find it sad to see disabled persons punished by the railway - it should be more sympathetic

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The OP hasn't stated his disability, which is his right, and can be a challenging thing to do in forums.

See post #10 above.

 

[Class800]

See post #10 above.

The medication side effect affecting memory - that could be a potential reason for reasonable adjustment under the Equality Act. More specialist advice would be required before deciding whether to go down that line.

 

[Shilpa]

The OP hasn't stated his disability, which is his right, and can be a challenging thing to do in forums. Maybe this one would be better if someone would take forward using a PM? For me, the key thing is what is the disability, and would it account for the forgetting. So, if the disability is cognitive, it may be quite different than if it was purely physical. Companies under Equality Act have the obligation to make reasonable adjustments for disability. It could be that the company failed to do this here, but it would depend on what the disability is. I do find it sad to see disabled persons punished by the railway - it should be more sympathetic

I don’t mind disclosing it. I have epilepsy. It is controlled through medication. Although I’m now seizure free, there are many, many side-effects, memory loss being one of them.
I haven’t mentioned it in my letter as I can’t distinguish between whether it’s memory loss or plain incompetence.
I just don’t like using the ‘epilepsy card.’

This is a fair point but it somewhat misses the key point - the OP admits that they simply forgot to check that their railcard was still valid. They never would have looked for ticket buying facilities because they already had a ticket that they mistakenly believed was valid. I don't think the OP was asking for advice on loopholes that may be worth pursuing, more that the penalty was disproportionate and advice ref would there be any chance of it being reduced on request.

I do agree with your point about paying what has been requested and trying to pursue it further afterwards to see if it is possible to get some of the money back as a good will gesture (esp as Northern's gateline staff indicated, unhelpfully as it turns out, that there would not be a severe penalty, when in fact I assume the OP has been threatened with court action if they do not pay the sum now being requested).

Exactly that. Thank you. I’m that person that if a cashier has overchanged me, I run back in the store to give money back. I wasn’t trying to pull a fast one.

 

[island]

I'm not making any judgement, but at the end of the day it's your responsibility to make sure you are carrying your railcard and that it is valid and in date. The sum they're asking may seem large compared to the fare, but if you decline to pay it they will almost certainly take you to court and win - in which case the fine will be probably be higher than the settlement they have offered.

If I were you I'd pay the settlement.

This is sensible advice.

There is no "appeal" process for the out of court settlement offer, which at £90 plus the fare due is in the normal range for such matters. Attempting to "appeal" or contest the process may lead to the settlement offer being withdrawn and a prosecution ensuing.

Muddying the waters with side issues such as arguments that a disability prevented the OP from buying a ticket, which it plainly did not, does not help in this situation.

 

[Shilpa]

This is sensible advice.

There is no "appeal" process for the out of court settlement offer, which at £90 plus the fare due is in the normal range for such matters. Attempting to "appeal" or contest the process may lead to the settlement offer being withdrawn and a prosecution ensuing.

Muddying the waters with side issues such as arguments that a disability prevented the OP from buying a ticket, which it plainly did not, does not help in this situation.

*she

 

[WesternLancer]

I don’t mind disclosing it. I have epilepsy. It is controlled through medication. Although I’m now seizure free, there are many, many side-effects, memory loss being one of them.
I haven’t mentioned it in my letter as I can’t distinguish between whether it’s memory loss or plain incompetence.
I just don’t like using the ‘epilepsy card.’


Exactly that. Thank you. I’m that person that if a cashier has overchanged me, I run back in the store to give money back. I wasn’t trying to pull a fast one.

Do keep us posted on how you get on as things progress. I can't recall that many Disabled Railcard holders having this problem have come to this forum so the outcome of your case may be of help to future readers with the same issue.
Good luck