Dispute with Southern over discounted ticket without Railcard

[NathanPrior]

Got a travelcard with a YP Discount (however had forgotten my Railcard) on the 23rd December and used it all day around London then at 4:45 trying to get through London Bridge they've put the filters on not to accept tickets with railcards, now this is slightly odd as during the 3 years I've had a YP Railcard and got travelcards I haven't been stopped, ever. The ticket barrier guy (he looked more like a train guard) wouldn't believe me and took my details after I refused to pay a penalty fare and now I've got a letter from Southern about it, surely they can't send me to court even though I have provided them with a copy of my railcard I would of had that day.

The annoying part of this is that I got one for my gf and as putting the railcard discount on the ticket machine is programmed into my head now and I didn't realise my mistake until London Bridge whilst being moaned at by the guy. Now my gf offered to pay a penalty fare by debit card but the guy refused and said only cash was acceptable and wouldn't let us go out to the ATM to get cash. He was unproffessional during the whole ordeal and had a smug smile on his face the whole time, not to mention he didn't speak English very well so was hard to understand...it got to the point where he was just being a total ******** so I let him know what I thought of him.

So now my gf has got a letter from Southern too about it, surely no charges will be pressed for a mere £2.70 which is the difference between a travelcard without a discount and one with. It's not like we didnt buy a ticket or such.

 

[AlterEgo]

I could offer some practical advice, but your contemptuous language towards rail staff is a bit poor.

I'm getting rather fed up with people who post expecting help, but maintain an arrogant and self-righteous demeanor.

Bear in mind the people on here who are best placed to help are mainly rail staff who might not take kindly to having their colleagues called naughty names!

 

[NathanPrior]

Alright sorry, but when he's not being helpful and doing as he should and generally being smug and happy about the whole thing he needs to be pointed in the right direction as to how to do things and shown how things are done in a professional manner.

Advice now?

 

[SS4]

I see nothing wrong here. You forgot your railcard and treated as not having a ticket (as per the railcard conditions). While he was acting by the book some discretion could have been given.

 

[Pumbaa]

Me too. I am usually very pro-passenger but you were treated accordingly as not having a valid ticket. Sometimes people make mistakes. In this situation, you made the mistake and now unfortunately you are required to rectify it at £££.

(I would also say that the rules need to be re-written and I don't agree with them, but that's completely irrelevant in this situation.)

 

[NathanPrior]

But as I'm asking, do you think any charges and such will be pressed for a mere £2.70 as per me getting my gf a YP Travelcard by mistake. If it does, then the system is seriously broken.

 

[scotsman]

Alright sorry, but when he's not being helpful and doing as he should and generally being smug and happy about the whole thing he needs to be pointed in the right direction as to how to do things and shown how things are done in a professional manner.

Advice now?

Not doing as he should? You were the one who lacked the railcard...

How's he to know if he's caught someone who doges the correct fare everyday, and someone who's made a mistake.

Anyway, from what I can tell, you were offered a penalty fare, but you were such an a*se to him, that he changed his mind and decided to report you for prosecution instead. Congratulations!

Anyway, if you want advice, you need to tell us a lot more information - the content of the letters should do for a start.

 

[NathanPrior]

Not doing as he should? You were the one who lacked the railcard...

How's he to know if he's caught someone who doges the correct fare everyday, and someone who's made a mistake.

Anyway, from what I can tell, you were offered a penalty fare, but you were such an a*se to him, that he changed his mind and decided to report you for prosecution instead. Congratulations!

Anyway, if you want advice, you need to tell us a lot more information - the content of the letters should do for a start.

But on the part that he did with my gf was to say no penalty fares were to be paid by card and only cash was allowed, slightly suspicious thing to say don't you think?

 

[AlterEgo]

But as I'm asking, do you think any charges and such will be pressed for a mere £2.70 as per me getting my gf a YP Travelcard by mistake. If it does, then the system is seriously broken.

You've had chances to rectify your error though. You should have paid the Penalty Fare and you wouldn't be in this position.

Are Southern threatening to prosecute? What have they sent you?

Also, it is very unwise to mouth off at members of staff when using (what I assume to be) your real name as your username. A member of Southern's management has already read this thread.

 

[NathanPrior]

You've had chances to rectify your error though. You should have paid the Penalty Fare and you wouldn't be in this position.

Are Southern threatening to prosecute? What have they sent you?

Also, it is very unwise to mouth off at members of staff when using (what I assume to be) your real name as your username. A member of Southern's management has already read this thread.

But why would I want to pay a penalty fare when I have a railcard? It doesn't seem logical to pay £25 when I didn't need to. Being unemployed doesn't mean I'm made of money.

Got sent a letter with the "state what happened in your own words" attached bit of paper and the likely outcomes if its taken to court. So I've replied with the truth that I forgot my railcard and have attached a copy of my railcard with the letter

 

[GadgetMan]

The bit about the member of staff not believing you; it isn't a case of whether you own a valid railcard or not, it's more to do with you not being in possession of it when traveling. This isn't aimed at you, but in the decade I have been checking tickets, of the countless people I have come across who weren't able to produce a valid railcard with their ticket every one of them has claimed they have a railcard at home. How true is that likely to be?

It's this sort of attitude that narks me off a bit. I have far more time for people who start off along the lines of "I know I should carry it with me but I've mistakenly forgotten to bring it with me today". Too many people in all walks of life these days fail to take responsibility for their own mistakes. It's always someone else's fault.

Have I missed something? Why are Southern ar$eholes in this matter?

I must add, had I come across a couple who BOTH failed to produce railcards, then I wouldn't be showing any discretion either.

 

[ert47]

But why would I want to pay a penalty fare when I have a railcard? It doesn't seem logical to pay £25 when I didn't need to. Being unemployed doesn't mean I'm made of money.

Got sent a letter with the "state what happened in your own words" attached bit of paper and the likely outcomes if its taken to court. So I've replied with the truth that I forgot my railcard and have attached a copy of my railcard with the letter

Its irrelevant that you are unemployed. Even with a job, getting a fine is akin to a kick in the balls. But in this case, you were in the wrong, I also have a YP railcard and know that if I am using a discounted ticket, that I have to have the card on me to prove it.

First of all, as pointed out by others, the language you have used towards the staff doesn't really give us a good impression of what you are like as a person. - so some of us may be less inclined to help you.
This may have been a problem with what happened at the gateline when you were caught. You could have just accepted that you were in the wrong in the first place, then written a letter of apology explaining the situation that that it wouldn't happen again. Then who knows what could happen.


Courtesy helps.

 

[tony_mac]

). And also, who's decision was it to just filter the ticket barriers to not accept railcards? Every time I've been through there in 3 years of having a railcard its been fine, just not the time I forget my railcard.

Would you believe they do this sometimes because lots of people buy discounted tickets when they don't actually have a railcard?

And yes, railway companies do prosecute for amounts of £2.70 and less, it discourages other people from trying it.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1113642_mum_fined_465_for_40p_error

 

[NathanPrior]

Its irrelevant that you are unemployed. Even with a job, getting a fine is akin to a kick in the balls. But in this case, you were in the wrong, I also have a YP railcard and know that if I am using a discounted ticket, that I have to have the card on me to prove it.

First of all, as pointed out by others, the language you have used towards the staff doesn't really give us a good impression of what you are like as a person. - so some of us may be less inclined to help you.
This may have been a problem with what happened at the gateline when you were caught. You could have just accepted that you were in the wrong in the first place, then written a letter of apology explaining the situation that that it wouldn't happen again. Then who knows what could happen.


Courtesy helps.

On first contact with the guy he just seemed to go into unprofessional mode and not do anything properly, he took details without even telling what was gonna happen then read the rights..surely it should be read the rights then take details? He didn't even say who would over see the whole issue, just "you'll get a letter soon". So how am I supposed to write a letter of apology if I don't even know who was dealing with it?

 

[GadgetMan]

I actually said to him that I know I should of had it and have forgotten it, but he still looked as smug as ever. I also have the railcard put on my Oyster Card but he didnt believe that either and wouldnt let me prove it.

Southern aren't arseholes, just the guy who was processing it all (Olu). And also, who's decision was it to just filter the ticket barriers to not accept railcards? Every time I've been through there in 3 years of having a railcard its been fine, just not the time I forget my railcard.

It's all water under the bridge now mate. You can't change what has already happened. Your best option now is to respond to the letter. Explain you are very sorry and send in a copy of the railcard to prove you do indeed have one. And then hope for the best.

 

[NathanPrior]

It's all water under the bridge now mate. You can't change what has already happened. Your best option now is to respond to the letter. Explain you are very sorry and send in a copy of the railcard to prove you do indeed have one. And then hope for the best.

I have done, gonna send it off later and hope it gets in by tuesday which was the deadline for it

 

[Chapeltom]

Without meaning to sound stupid, this Tuesday is the deadline? Haven't you left it a bit late?

 

[GadgetMan]

he took details without even telling what was gonna happen

More than likely because he may not have come to a decision as to how he was going to deal with it at that point.

I know I let the passenger write their details while I have a think about how I will be dealing with them depending on the attitude during the conversation.

But once he'd decided to report you, he should have explained that he would report the matter to the TOC's (Southern's) revenue protection department and that they would contact you in the very near future.

Just thought I would add I'm a guard so may deal with Irregularities differently to the person who you spoke to who may well have been an RPI.


If Tuesday is the deadline then send it next day delivery to ensure it gets there in time and you can prove it.

 

[NathanPrior]

Without meaning to sound stupid, this Tuesday is the deadline? Haven't you left it a bit late?

I've been up to my neck in things to do so have only found time for it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

More than likely because he may not have come to a decision as to how he was going to deal with it at that point.

I know I let the passenger write their details while I have a think about how I will be dealing with them depending on the attitude during the conversation.

But once he'd decided to report you, he should have explained that he would report the matter to the TOC's (Southern's) revenue protection department and that they would contact you in the very near future.

Just thought I would add I'm a guard so may deal with Irregularities differently to the person who you spoke to who may well have been an RPI.

All I got was "you're gonna get a letter and you're gonna go to court" such a lovely fella.

 

[tony_mac]

I've been up to my neck in things to do so have only found time for it

Generally, from what we have seen here, people who are proactive about it usually manage to persuade (or 'bribe') the company not to prosecute.

I understand that the conviction rate is something like 90% of those that go to court - but I guess they generally plead guilty or don't attend.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've been up to my neck in things to do so have only found time for it

Send it next day delivery you really don't want this letter to be late.

As for your situation TOCs have prosecuted for less (I think Northern Rail went after someone over less than a pound) so don't think that they wont. Personally I think you were a bit silly refusing to pay the penalty fare. You did not have a valid ticket (the T&Cs of the railcard clearly state that if you don't have the railcard with you then any discounted ticket is invalid).

However you could try writing to Southern explaining that you realise your mistake, that you won't make it again and are willing to pay for the fare you should have bought and any administrative costs that they've encountered. This approach (for first time offenders which I assume you are ) has often yielded positive results.

Certainly I wouldn't go round assuming that you're going to be able to get this overturned as you did not have a valid ticket when you were challenged to present one which is a violation of Byelaw 18:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person

I'm not sure if they will try for a RoRA Section 5 offence as that requires proof of attempting to avoid paying the fare but if they think they can they will and that is far more serious as it can result in a criminal record should they be successful.

 

[First class]

Let me provide you with a bit of advice:

1) The behavior of the railway employee is the least of your concerns. Had you of complied with the terms of the railcard and ticket, you would not have been confronted nor facing a criminal record.

2) If your letter you've sent is in any way similar to what you've been writing on this forum, I fully expect Southern to prosecute you.

3) They will most likely prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws seeing as though you had some form of ticket:

Byelaw 17(1) - Not having a valid ticket and Byelaw 17(2) - Not producing the railcard.

4) Punishment:

Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 (£1000) on the standard scale. You will receive a criminal record, although it will only appear on Enhanced Searches.

You appear to have committed 2 offences.

5) However, Southern could take the view that refusing to accept a Penalty Fare proves that you deliberately avoided the correct fare. That is far more serious and can if convicted of a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 offence, travelling to the USA etc may become difficult/impossible. This will show on all criminal record checks. It is essentially fraud.

6) Railway Operators can apply whatever level of checking they like to the Automatic Barriers. It is your responsibility to ensure your ticket is valid.

7) The payment card you produced was probably a Visa Electron or Solo which are not valid forms of payment.

 

[ainsworth74]

3) They will most likely prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws seeing as though you had some form of ticket:

Byelaw 18(1) - Not having a valid ticket and Byelaw 18(2) - Not producing the railcard.

Wouldn't it be 17 as isn't London Bridge (or at least the platform side of the barriers) a compulsory ticket area (I don't think it really matters in this case as the result of both is almost identical but best to be precise in these matters me thinks)?

 

[First class]

Wouldn't it be 17 as isn't London Bridge a compulsory ticket area (I don't think it really matters as the result of both is almost identical but best to be precise in these matters me thinks)?

Indeed, if London Bridge is a CTA then 17 is applicable.

 

[NathanPrior]

I did give him a opportunity to see that I had one by proving that it was on my oyster card but he refused to believe me that you can put them on the oyster. I didnt even really get a chance to explain as he just took details/asked for penalty fare straight away without seeking my explanation

 

[First class]

I did give him a opportunity to see that I had one by proving that it was on my oyster card but he refused to believe me that you can put them on the oyster. I didnt even really get a chance to explain as he just took details/asked for penalty fare straight away without seeking my explanation

Bottom line is, unless you had the railcard physically on you at the moment you were checked, you have committed 2 x offences. There is absolutely no legal defence available to you.

It is so easy to prove.

No explanation from you could have fixed this situation. Paying a Penalty Fare would have avoided potential court hearings but you CHOSE not to accept that punishment.

I think intent could be proved here:

1) Discounted Ticket out of a self-service machine, so perhaps avoiding ticket office staff
2) No entitlement to discount as no railcard held
3) Refuses to pay the remedy, (by comparison, a small) £20 Penalty Fare
4) Has a poor attitude
5) Probably admitted to doing it "all day" and nobody has stopped you before.

A Prosecutor wouldn't even need to open his mouth.

 

[NathanPrior]

Let me provide you with a bit of advice:
7) The payment card you produced was probably a Visa Electron or Solo which are not valid forms of payment.

Didn't even get the card out, just got told to pay cash and when mentioned about card got "no card, just cash"

 

[ainsworth74]

I did give him a opportunity to see that I had one by proving that it was on my oyster card but he refused to believe me that you can put them on the oyster. I didnt even really get a chance to explain as he just took details/asked for penalty fare straight away without seeking my explanation

I'm not expert on Oyster cards but I'm not sure that having a YP on an Oyster card would be an acceptable proof for these purposes (and whilst it might have been enough on the gateline if the RPI showed discretion I'm also unsure whether it would stand up in court or not). Also there is the possibility that the RPI was aware that Oyster can be loaded with YPs but did not have access to a card reader in which case it doesn't matter if your Oyster had a YP loaded as there was no one for this to be determined so we come back to not having a valid fare.

Either way I strongly advise you to try and settle this with Southern before letting it get anywhere near court as I suspect they will be successful in their prosecution (either via the byelaws or RoRA).

 

[RJ]

But as I'm asking, do you think any charges and such will be pressed for a mere £2.70 as per me getting my gf a YP Travelcard by mistake. If it does, then the system is seriously broken.

There is a very real possibility. FCC are reported to have punished someone who travelled twice in one day, "forgetting" to swipe their Oystercard both times.

For the first offence, they were prosecuted under the Railway Byelaw 18(2), which is merely failure to produce a valid ticket. For the second, identical offence, they were convicted under Section 5.3 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which resulted in a criminal record. The fares avoided were 1.80 and 3.70.

Source.

I used to be kind to people in offering the opportunity to pay a Penalty Fare if they had been caught travelling contrary to the applicable legislations. Some people did not take kindly to this, so instead I proceeded to have them reported. I'm sure a hefty fine and a possible criminal record is a much more preferrable option for the clever people who feel that the rules should not apply to them. I was fair when it came to these matters, the less respectful the person was, the less likely I'd be to consider discretion.

Best of luck anyway, do let us know how you get on mate!

 

[NathanPrior]

Bottom line is, unless you had the railcard physically on you at the moment you were checked, you have committed 2 x offences. There is absolutely no legal defence available to you.

But surely some discretion can be used? Everyone forgets something and this time it just happened to be my railcard. Also, consistancy should be used, no ticket checks when I've got a travelcard with my railcard for 3 years, but now I've had one? Need that really explained as its slightly strange. I even managed to get from London to Sheffield and back the other week without being asked for my railcard...consistency is needed!