Dispute with Southern over discounted ticket without Railcard

[Urban Gateline]

Not necessarily. What we need is effective on-board ticket checks and clear, unambiguous rules regarding penalties so that passengers know their ticket will be inspected and the consequences of having an invalid ticket, and ticket inspectors cannot punish a passenger for having a "bad attitude".

That would be ideal, but it's just not possible, with Guards hardly present on train services, many DOO services. Guards also do not have enough power or time to deal efficiently with offenders, and the RPI's that are supposed to fill this gap are far and few inbetween, so Barriers is like an extra obstacle to ensure passengers pay their fares.

 

[Flamingo]

Not necessarily. What we need is effective on-board ticket checks and clear, unambiguous rules regarding penalties so that passengers know their ticket will be inspected and the consequences of having an invalid ticket, and ticket inspectors cannot punish a passenger for having a "bad attitude".

I do not punish passengers for having a bad attitude. I reward them for having a good attitude.

I applied the rules exactly as they stand. They passed an open ticket office, therefore the only ticket available to them was an Anytime single, which I sold them for exactly the advertised price, gave them their tickets, credit card and expenses receipts, said "Thank You", and left them to enjoy their journey.

And that demonstrates perfectly why the UK's railways are in such a state.

I presume you mean passengers attempting to evade paying the fare due for their journey, thereby reducing available investment in the network and a resulting need for an increase in taxpayer subsidy demonstrates why the UK's railways are in such a state.

 

[MikeWh]

In order to apply a Railcard to an Oyster card, aren't you first suppose to register the Oystercard with your details? If the passenger has a photographic ID that matches the details on the card, then surely...

Some staff say you do have to, but I'm informed by someone that should know that it isn't essential.

Im not sure what the set up is at the moment, but it seems you cant actually do much in terms of checking an Oyster card unless you're at an Underground station.

Correct. There may well be data protection issues, but the bottom line is that the Oyster system is run by TfL and there is only so much other systems can see. Plus, the mobile reader that RPIs use only extracts the information that an RPI needs to see to check that a valid ticket is held.

 

[dvboy]

Linking a railcard to an Oyster card is flawed. My railcard was purchased online and the railcard number was too long for the box on the ticket office man's computer screen so who knows what he entered in that box.

 

[LondonJohn]

back to the original story.

the official line on this is that without your railcard your ticket is not valid. How can you prove somebody else is not using your railcard at the same time?

Abiding by the terms of carriage is important. The valid ticket doesn't only validate your travel but validates your reason for being on railway property. Without a valid ticket your not insured to be there. So if anything was to happen to you then your held responsible. No compo claim for you!!!!!

Moral of the story is..........

This is your mistake, BUY A TICKET, and pay my wages. LOL

Is there really any need for that ?

The OP made a mistake, or two and got upset about it. Of course this is that old chestnut if you buy a railcard reduced ticket you need the railcard. Though as it does have a photocard (I am assuming a YP Railcard still needs a photocard), it can't be used by anybody else.

Even though those are the rules, doesn't mean the rules are right and indeed it always seems to be in the favour of the TOC not the company.

I have an annual season ticket, and could get on at an ungated station, and only realise when I arrive at my gated station that I have to buy a new ticket. Of course they should be able to check the database of most season tickets and you get a refund on the ticket you had to buy a couple of times, then you pay the fee.

I really don't see why something similar could not be done for railcards... oh yes of course because its only TOC friendly, not passenger friendly.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Even though those are the rules, doesn't mean the rules are right and indeed it always seems to be in the favour of the TOC not the company.

Eh?

People find themselves under investigation for a Ticketing irregularity and come on here for help and assistance. Whether you or I think the regulations are ideal is of little help and can confuse people into believing that that they are not about to face a prosecution (perhaps a Criminal prosecution) because some of us on here don't like 'the rules' either. That really doesn't help anyone and is the sort of response which can lead passengers further into deeper penalties.

But what on earth does "in favour of the TOC not the company" mean. And how does that help anyone?
And what does "doesn't mean the rules are right" mean? The precision of the 'rules' are, whether we like it or not, precisely what IS right. That's what 'being right' means.

 

[NathanPrior]

Just out of interest, which gates were you trying to exit from? The high level through platforms leading to the underground, the gates from the high level leading to bus station or the gates leading to the terminus concourse?

EDIT: Just thought, if you were travelling from Charing Cross, why were you using the Southern gatelines (terminus)?

Went from Platform 4 up the stairs and down through the Southern platforms, much quicker to exit the station

Can i just ask Nathan why you bought a paper travelcard if oyster held the YP discount?

I've had times where its capped me more on the Oyster than what it would be as a paper one

You need to carry your railcard on Oyster discounts too.

Otherwise, how do we know the discounted Oyster is the OP's?

Registered in my name

Also, the issue about my gf's one, is that going into railcards option and putting one on is second nature to me now so I did that and only realised once stopped, so really yes that was a mistake on my part

 

[ert47]

Went from Platform 4 up the stairs and down through the Southern platforms, much quicker to exit the station

Ok then, did you exit using the gates near platform 8? Only because there is a small office on platform 9/10 that is used for unpaid fares. Not sure if there is a pay terminal there so that you could have paid by card, but I could have a look tomorrow.

General question to everyone here: Is it possible to pay a fine at a ticket office?

 

[NathanPrior]

Ok then, did you exit using the gates near platform 8? Only because there is a small office on platform 9/10 that is used for unpaid fares. Not sure if there is a pay terminal there so that you could have paid by card, but I could have a look tomorrow.

General question to everyone here: Is it possible to pay a fine at a ticket office?

Yup them ones. He did all the detail takings and stuff outside that officey thing

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So after all that you have read on here and considered, did you send a Statement to the company within the time they offered you?

If so, what did you write?

 

[NathanPrior]

Basically I stated that I had forgotten my railcard and sent a photocopy of it with the letter.

Gonna write them an email tomorrow going into more detail

 

[GadgetMan]

Basically I stated that I had forgotten my railcard and sent a photocopy of it with the letter.

Gonna write them an email tomorrow going into more detail

It may well have been better if you'd gone into 'more detail' in the statement you sent them. By dragging it out to the last day and now sending a separate email possibly after the deadline, you risk coming across as someone that may be being awkward.

Just my opinion.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think that by stating that you did not have your railcard with you at the time you've essentially admitted to a violation of Byelaw 18:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person

In which case I think at this point you might well be beyond being able to get Southern to settle rather than proceed with (at the very least) a prosecution under the Railway Byelaws which will lead almost certainly to a fine of much more money than it would have been had you simply payed the PF. I'm still not sure if they're going to go for a RoRA Section 5 (I think they might as your refusal to pay the PF could perhaps be seen as an attempt to avoid paying the fare) but they will if they can and this would lead to a criminal record if you're found guilty.

 

[NathanPrior]

I think that by stating that you did not have your railcard with you at the time you've essentially admitted to a violation of Byelaw 18:



In which case I think at this point you might well be beyond being able to get Southern to settle rather than proceed with (at the very least) a prosecution under the Railway Byelaws which will lead almost certainly to a fine of much more money than it would have been had you simply payed the PF. I'm still not sure if they're going to go for a RoRA Section 5 (I think they might as your refusal to pay the PF could perhaps be seen as an attempt to avoid paying the fare) but they will if they can and this would lead to a criminal record if you're found guilty.

I would of paied the PF if the guy would allowed cards, but no, in his words "cash only, no card" so thats not my refusal really is it?

 

[yorkie]

DanTrainMan185 - The answers to your questions are already contained within this thread (and we've had numerous detailed debates about various forgotten railcard proposals before).

Also, the issue about my gf's one, is that going into railcards option and putting one on is second nature to me now so I did that and only realised once stopped, so really yes that was a mistake on my part

OK so that's an admission of a byelaw offence being committed for her ticket, but a denial of a more serious Regulation of Railways Act office that would lead to a criminal record and a greater fine. If offered the chance of a Penalty Fare then it is best to take it, pay it, and you can still appeal.

General question to everyone here: Is it possible to pay a fine at a ticket office?

No. If found guilty, the fine is decided by the Courts and is not really anything to do with the TOCs.

Gonna write them an email tomorrow going into more detail

Is that wise? If you give the detail you gave on here then you are only incriminating yourself further.

I would of paied the PF if the guy would allowed cards, but no, in his words "cash only, no card" so thats not my refusal really is it?

I hope I would have calmly asked for a manager at that point rather than swear at the inspector (or alternatively withdraw cash, and then put in a complaint afterwards that it had to be in cash).

 

[NathanPrior]

Unless I've somehow missed it, I don't think you asked the question about what type of card it was, so it remains a possibility that the card in question is of a type that is not generally accepted by the TOCs (ie, one that does not work offline).

As I've said, the card that was going to be used was never pulled out, it never once was seen by the guy, just got told no to cards but yes to cash.

And I didn't swear at him, just told him that he needed to cheer up as it was near Christmas

 

[yorkie]

....so I let him know what I thought of him.

At the end of the day only you, the inspector and anyone else present knows exactly what was said, but if it was merely a case of...

....just told him that he needed to cheer up as it was near Christmas

and you were polite to the inspector at the time I don't understand why bad language was used on this forum 3 weeks after the event.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

it got to the point where he was just being a total ******** so I let him know what I thought of him.

And I didn't swear at him, just told him that he needed to cheer up as it was near Christmas

So which is true?

 

[First class]

I think if "NathonPrior" is using his real name, SouthEastern will now be well aware of his "defence" and "attitute", and the content of these 8 pages. Whilst I doubt it can be used as court evidence, it may well sway Mr. Prosecutor into starting a 5(3a) against this user. The ConsumerForums have a lot of TOC staff trawling the pages, especially FCC.

Originally Posted by NathanPrior
it got to the point where he was just being a total ******** so I let him know what I thought of him.

Says it all.

 

[NathanPrior]

£20 fine, thats it

 

[Flamingo]

Still the original Penalty Fare, then. If it was a fine, it would be more than £20 (closer on £200+)

 

[bb21]

£20 fine, thats it

It is not a fine. It is a fare for people who have made an honest mistake. It may feel like a fine, but it isn't. A TOC has no power to levy a fine.

I think what you need to do is take a breath and read again slowly what has been said to you in the last few pages of this thread. From what you have described, it looks like you're doing yourself no favours at all by incriminating yourself further. A Regulation of Railways Act conviction is no minor matter and there can be serious consequences which can affect the rest of your life. There is a possibility proceedings can be started against you given that TOC employees do read this forum and can see quite publicly what you have stated here.

As others have pointed out, paying the PF is looking more and more like a cheap solution as time goes on.

 

[Yew]

If it is £20, then it sounds to me like they are just counting it as a UPFN (unpadi fare notice) for the penalty fare of £20. My advice would be to pay it as soon as possible, and to take it on the chin. we all forget things like railcards (I left mine on a train ) and in all probability you've probably got a few things for less then they should have cost in the past, so It will probably even out in the long run.

 

[RJ]

£20 fine, thats it

You should think yourself lucky. Someone else who claims they didn't realise that their railcard was out of date is allegedly facing legal action from FCC (see here for the story.)

You should understand that some TOCs are abjectly ruthless with their enforcement of the rules. As it stands, the law is on their side, so you should be grateful if they show any further lenience.