Disruption due to an issue at Dawlish (18/10)

[Ashley Hill]

There’s a lot more than that which have failed today!
One failed at St Erth this morning and one at Taunton I believe this afternoon for starters.

Another outside Paddington I believe plus one on shed at North Pole prior to entering service.

5H17

Ah yes,Super Hitachi Intercity Train.

 

[JustPassingBy]

For posterity (attached).

 

[BRX]

They need to get a collection of old stock that can be parked up on the line closest to the sea in bad weather to take the brunt of the waves, then do single line working along behind it.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's not designed to stop the sea washing over the line, just to stop it falling down. But I have observed that the little decorative metal fences on top are easily damaged by the sea washing up rocks, loads of them are damaged.

Well it was supposed to reduce over spray to some degree, but as you say never intended to prevent it completely.

But I think the “little metal fences” are not primarily decorative, they’re positioned to maintain the effective height where the raised seating areas are. Might have been a bad idea to have those raised areas with hindsight.

 

[Bartsimho]

Time to dust off the thread about Okehampton then?

In all seriousness we were told the improvements would help prevent situations like this and this isn't even during an awful storm just a more regular one and this is cutting off an entire swathe of the country because it runs along the seafront. I also don't see how you ever electrify this bit with the weather issues potentially effecting the wires.

 

[irish_rail]

Using the bi-di, 1V58 has just gone round what is now 5C55 still sitting in Teignmouth platform. Is that the first Class 1 train to make it through to Newton Abbot since around 9am?

This is going to cost someone a fortune in delay repay!

I think they are sending an engine to haul that one away apparently.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The panel were just assigning consecutive numbers to the *Z99 headcode it wasn't anything to do with the class, a good job they stopped at 3, Thunderbird 4 is submarine .....

Given the conditions, Thunderbird 4 might be the one to use.

 

[LAX54]

This isn’t down to Hitachi. GWR insisted on still running trains over the seawall despite yesterdays failures, it’s total incompetence on the part of GWR

Id argue it's the fault of Hitachi, poor design when they knew where it was going to run, in the past remember all those pics of sprinters, HST's hauled sets, all virtually drowned in water, but still ran ( mostly)

 

[455refurb]

This isn’t down to Hitachi. GWR insisted on still running trains over the seawall despite yesterdays failures, it’s total incompetence on the part of GWR

It absolutely is down to Hitachi and absolutely not incompetence from GWR, to be running stock which is supposed to be Dawlish proof through Dawlish.
The issue here is Hitachi's shoddy, cracking, embarrassment of a unit, all of which should run on the network with the headcode assigned by Exeter panel by default.

 

[Michael B]

I was in my flat in Dawlish on Tuesday and Wednesday. It is located on the sea front about 50 yards from where the 2014 sea wall breach occurred, is on the first floor of a three floor terrace house, has a narrow road in front then the two railway tracks and the well known sea wall path. The sea conditions were 2.5 metre waves rolling in from the ESE direction and high tides of around 3.6 metres at around 21.00 Tuesday evening and 09.30 the Wednesday morning. I would describe the tide height as fairly full however the ESE wave direction is quite unusual. I think the wind was around 40 to 50 KPH although some gusts were probably higher than that. Note: this is all from memory so please treat these figures as approximate.

It was a pretty interesting couple of high tides, I think the morning of Wednesday was just the bit more intense. Since the sea wall was rebuilt in this area (Riviera Terrace) the waves technically don't wash over the wall, they break against the wall and are directed upwards including any debris contained in those waves. The wind then catches the spray and blows it along which in this case was ESE and about 45 degrees to the direction of the track. I would think that over at Marine Parade with the new sea wall the waves were hitting full on. The sea was absolutely boiling and every now and then our front windows were hit by spray and completey drenched. One hit so hard my wife actually screamed because she thought the window was going to break. I have lived here for four years and this certainly was one of the most active seas that I have experienced. However, I have neighbours who experienced the 2014 breach and they said that they had seen much worse in the past.

I did take some videos of the trains on Wednesday morning and put a couple on Youtube. My fave is of 2U10 yesterday morning on the Up at just about high tide here:

I'm not qualified to comment on train operations however it was clear from Open Train Times that there was an issue at Teignmouth and now I have a better understanding of it thanks to this thread. Personally I think the sea wall did its job and did it well but it was an 'interesting' couple of days.

 

[Irascible]

How are they doing now? a little further east up the coast it's rather more unpleasant today than yesterday.

 

[BRX]

It's a fairly unique location in the UK (or even Europe?), so I think it would not be unreasonable to say that trains are subjected to somewhat abnormal conditions there, in bad weather. It wouldn't be a "normal" part of a spec for a rail vehicle, to be invulnerable to being hit sideways at force with considerable quantities of seawater, would it? Obviously older types of trains are less vulnerable because they have less complex electronics on board, but that's just the nature of modern trains.

 

[Irascible]

It's a fairly unique location in the UK (or even Europe?), so I think it would not be unreasonable to say that trains are subjected to somewhat abnormal conditions there, in bad weather. It wouldn't be a "normal" part of a spec for a rail vehicle, to be invulnerable to being hit sideways at force with considerable quantities of seawater, would it? Obviously older types of trains are less vulnerable because they have less complex electronics on board, but that's just the nature of modern trains.

Force isn't the problem - the wall and other defences break up the waves, it's simply getting doused in seawater that's doing it.

 

[The Planner]

Time to dust off the thread about Okehampton then?

In all seriousness we were told the improvements would help prevent situations like this and this isn't even during an awful storm just a more regular one and this is cutting off an entire swathe of the country because it runs along the seafront. I also don't see how you ever electrify this bit with the weather issues potentially effecting the wires.

This old thread with the ubiquitous Ayr picture may help.

How would you electrify Dawlish?

The recent stranding of a Voyager at Dawlish, having been hit by a wave, had me wondering. If (and yes, I accept it's a big if) how do you electrify along the sea wall? Water and electricity don't seem to be happy bedfellows.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[sh24]

Made it through on the 1A82, on time. Shame the 1A80 (which I was originally booked on) was cancelled but the 100% delay repay will help with that... 5H17 still sat at Newton About.

 

[trebor79]

Genuine question. Why do the brake resistors not short out when it rains?

 

[josh-j]

Sea water is more conductive than rainwater due to the salt in it.

Genuine question. Why do the brake resistors not short out when it rains?

 

[snowball]

Is there a way to temporarily isolate the resistors so that the braking defaults to friction?

 

[Master29]

It's a fairly unique location in the UK (or even Europe?), so I think it would not be unreasonable to say that trains are subjected to somewhat abnormal conditions there, in bad weather. It wouldn't be a "normal" part of a spec for a rail vehicle, to be invulnerable to being hit sideways at force with considerable quantities of seawater, would it? Obviously older types of trains are less vulnerable because they have less complex electronics on board, but that's just the nature of modern trains.

Yes, but this is not an unknown quantity here we are talking about is it. We keep hearing about modern advancements but we are talking about a period of years looking for an HST replacement and being lumbered with the 802 feels more like a lemon than a "nature of modern trains" analogy.

 

[DarloRich]

I did take some videos of the trains on Wednesday morning and put a couple on Youtube. My fave is of 2U10 yesterday morning on the Up at just about high tide here

the waves in this video are higher than the train! Not sure what you are supposed to do in these circumstances. Dammed if you stop service. Dammed if you dont....................

 

[burneside]

I was in my flat in Dawlish on Tuesday and Wednesday. It is located on the sea front about 50 yards from where the 2014 sea wall breach occurred, is on the first floor of a three floor terrace house, has a narrow road in front then the two railway tracks and the well known sea wall path. The sea conditions were 2.5 metre waves rolling in from the ESE direction and high tides of around 3.6 metres at around 21.00 Tuesday evening and 09.30 the Wednesday morning. I would describe the tide height as fairly full however the ESE wave direction is quite unusual. I think the wind was around 40 to 50 KPH although some gusts were probably higher than that. Note: this is all from memory so please treat these figures as approximate.

It was a pretty interesting couple of high tides, I think the morning of Wednesday was just the bit more intense. Since the sea wall was rebuilt in this area (Riviera Terrace) the waves technically don't wash over the wall, they break against the wall and are directed upwards including any debris contained in those waves. The wind then catches the spray and blows it along which in this case was ESE and about 45 degrees to the direction of the track. I would think that over at Marine Parade with the new sea wall the waves were hitting full on. The sea was absolutely boiling and every now and then our front windows were hit by spray and completey drenched. One hit so hard my wife actually screamed because she thought the window was going to break. I have lived here for four years and this certainly was one of the most active seas that I have experienced. However, I have neighbours who experienced the 2014 breach and they said that they had seen much worse in the past.

I did take some videos of the trains on Wednesday morning and put a couple on Youtube. My fave is of 2U10 yesterday morning on the Up at just about high tide here:

I'm not qualified to comment on train operations however it was clear from Open Train Times that there was an issue at Teignmouth and now I have a better understanding of it thanks to this thread. Personally I think the sea wall did its job and did it well but it was an 'interesting' couple of days.

A family member lives in one of the properties on Marine Parade, they say the intensity of the vibrations through the building when waves crash against the new wall during stormy weather feel much stronger than they used to.

 

[trebor79]

Sea water is more conductive than rainwater due to the salt in it.

I thought that would be the root of it.

Is there a way to temporarily isolate the resistors so that the braking defaults to friction?

Presumably that's not beyond the wit of man, but it sounds like that isn't how the power circuits have been arranged, and that tripping/switching out the brake resistors takes traction out too.

What about something really low tech like installing some fresh water sprayers at either end of the sea wall section to wash the salt away?

 

[lnerazuma]

GWR desperately need to reinstate HST as a short term solution and bill Hitachi for the associated costs

 

[Darandio]

GWR desperately need to reinstate HST as a short term solution and bill Hitachi for the associated costs

The unions would never allow it.

 

[David Burrows]

In over 50 years of railway operations I have never known a failed train to require three different rescue attempts/locos.
GW MD Hopwood and Co. must be absolutely livid with HITACHI the dreaded IET Builders, suppliers and service contract providers.

Does it not rather depend on what the 'user' Great Western (or whoever actually ordered them) specified when these units were ordered? Was there a specification to Hitachi that they must be completely 'waterproof' and guaranteed to operate in the conditions regularly experienced at Dawlish? If such specifications were made and Hitachi then built the units which were then found not to be 'waterproof', then yes, moan about the units. But if no such specification was made then it is not their fault if they built a 'normal' unit as ordered. Was the salesperson from Hitachi shown Dawlish in the worst condition and asked if their train was guaranteed to be able to run in such conditions? Probably not.

 

[VP185]

It absolutely is down to Hitachi and absolutely not incompetence from GWR, to be running stock which is supposed to be Dawlish proof through Dawlish.
The issue here is Hitachi's shoddy, cracking, embarrassment of a unit, all of which should run on the network with the headcode assigned by Exeter panel by default.

CrossCountry know that the Voyagers don’t cope at all well with the seawater. You don’t see them continue to run the trains

Albert Einstein once said “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”

For GWR to continue to try and run IETs over the seawall in rough conditions when you know they don’t cope is insane. It is negligent and incompetence.
Their actions puts people at risk and as a result they have now got several sets out of traffic at a time when things are already stretched.
Until such time as an engineering solution has been found, and there doest’t seem to be any sense of urgency in doing so, a contingency plans needs to be thought of and implemented in times of bad weather.

I believe it has been mentioned before, and I’m not 100% so someone may need to correct me, but the definition of Dawlish proof was for the trains to be resistant to sea spray, not physical waves hitting the train.

 

[Irascible]

You would know if a wave actually hit a train, because I very much doubt it'd still be on the rails ( and if there's a wave high enough to actually break over the sea wall there would be bits of houses everywhere too ). What's hitting the train is sea spray, just quite a lot at once. But that's the same as it's always been there.

 

[lnerazuma]

The unions would never allow it.

If most of the concern from union can be solved with money, then it's not a problem.

 

[Darandio]

If most of the concern from union can be solved with money, then it's not a problem.

The union concern is with the safety of the HST and has been discussed to death on here. You aren't going to pay them off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The union concern is with the safety of the HST and has been discussed to death on here. You aren't going to pay them off.

In any case there's no need to use HSTs. An emergency timetable providing an hourly 15x west of Exeter (skip stopping smaller stations) is entirely possible, even if it means having coach companies on call to release 15x from branches. This hardly ever happens in peak holiday season anyway.