Disruptive Passengers Procedure.

[GRALISTAIR]

See it say it sorted

 

[Towers]

Was the driver correct? I've been on DOO trains where the driver has been made aware of troublemakers on the train and gone back to challenge them, refusing to move the train until they got off. That tends to focus the minds of other passengers in the vicinity which usually yields swift results.

Not advisable; it really isn’t ideal to have the sole member of staff responsible for a train placing themselves at risk of being thumped!

On board staff are pretty much on their own these days, even things like gatelines seem to be increasingly left unstaffed and any sort of meaningful support can be hard to find. The old “I’m not moving the train” nonsense is, frankly, out of order and staff pulling that stunt are rightly liable for a b*llocking. Aside from delays there is also a duty of care issue to be considered, and attempting to force someone off of a train at a place they didn’t want to be has the potential to cause problems for all concerned.

 

[TUC]

Nice of the driver to undermine their colleague in front of passengers.

If you were one of the other passengers wouldn't you rather that the train got moving and that the issue was resolved later? Why should everyone else be inconvenienced?

attempting to force someone off of a train at a place they didn’t want to be has the potential to cause problems for all concerned.

Although pretty much everyone would say that they brought it upon themselves.

 

[bathbuses]

See it say it sorted

Or should it be
See it, say it, there's a possibility it might be sorted

 

[zero]

The OP has not stated the stations involved so we don't know whether it was really an empty threat to call the BTP.

I recall three incidents with the police on trains.

1. I was waiting at the "next station". 10 minutes before my train was due we were told to move away from the driver's end of the platform. A single BTP officer arrived and waited where the front door of the train would stop. As the door opened, the passenger dodged the policeman and ran off. The officer gave chase and managed to arrest the man, who then agreed to cooperate and both of them went back to the train for the officer to get the guard's statement.

2. A ticketless passenger boarded at a barriered station. When the guard quoted him a high anytime single fare, he expressed surprise and said he wasn't going to pay that much. The guard walked off to call police to the next station. When he came back, the passenger agreed to pay, but the guard said it was too late. However an off-duty officer in that carriage heard the interaction and said he would back up the passenger, who hadn't been aggressive and was just expressing surprise at the price - he said had previously been sold cheaper tickets on board (likely the off-peak day return). It turned out that the guard actually only arranged for RPIs to meet the train. The off-duty officer convinced the RPIs to sell a ticket instead of a penalty fare

3. The BTP was trying to do public relations and an officer was walking up and down the train talking to passengers about their role, but instead of engaging the passengers decided to voice their displeasure about police response (and non-response) times.

 

[RGM654]

It seems that a determined fare dodger has a good chance of getting away with it, while people who have made honest mistakes, and the woman who couldn't get the machine to work and honestly expected to be able to pay on the train, get prosecuted.

 

[LowLevel]

I was more thinking about if a third party gets involved and someone ends up getting “roughed up”. Even assertively directing someone off a train could well result in an assault charge, and it isn’t a good look for the guard if they are seen to have endorsed or encouraged this - much as many people might secretly approve.

The ScotRail incident was in many ways a textbook example of how not to handle such a situation, and in the London area could have turned pretty nasty.

I think that neatly sums up the problem with the UK at the minute - it is accepted that unpleasant people will be unpleasant, and that there may be consequences to taking any action in regards to maintaining societal norms like not being an unpleasant, aggressive scrote to attempt to get your own way.

There are some reasonable chunks of the country that need to go for the "Broken Windows" effect and make the lives of those concerned unbearable until their behaviour is corrected.

 

[Towers]

It seems that a determined fare dodger has a good chance of getting away with it, while people who have made honest mistakes, and the woman who couldn't get the machine to work and honestly expected to be able to pay on the train, get prosecuted.

This. Those who are likely to cough up will be asked to do so, those happy to tell staff to “jog on” (or similar) will likely be left to get on with it. It isn’t ideal, but what’s to be done?

Although pretty much everyone would say that they brought it upon themselves.

Except possibly the law and the employing TOC if some harm came to someone!

 

[Krokodil]

If there's a danger to life or limb and you call 999 they're still very likely to respond.

Or send the local force.

If a BTP response is extremely unlikely, then why does the BTP have an ongoing campaign inviting passengers to report live disruptive problems by texting 61016? Does anyone have any info on what they do with these texts? They’re just raising false hopes surely.

It's not "extremely unlikely". I've had a quick response when texting about a beggar in Birmingham New Street. It very much depends on whether there are officers available to respond.

Except possibly the law and the employing TOC if some harm came to someone!

If the person is a grown adult then they can look after themselves. Though I'd be reluctant to chuck off a lone female even if they were an adult, there have been a few nasty incidents involving 20ish year old women who were refused travel on buses. Even with kids, I was chatting to a local BTP sergeant who pointed out that there is a police station around the corner from the unstaffed railway station I happened to be doing revenue checks at with his assistance. So there was a place of safety close by.

 

[Towers]

If the person is a grown adult then they can look after themselves. Though I'd be reluctant to chuck off a lone female even if they were an adult, there have been a few nasty incidents involving 20ish year old women who were refused travel on buses. Even with kids, I was chatting to a local BTP sergeant who pointed out that there is a police station around the corner from the unstaffed railway station I happened to be doing revenue checks at with his assistance. So there was a place of safety close by.

It doesn’t matter; if said “grown adult” comes to grief somewhere as a result of having been dumped in the middle of nowhere on the last train of the night, I wouldn’t want to be the person who left them there. It’s dangerous to make decisions on who is safe to be left out in the cold based on their age, sex etc. Best just not to go there. Of course, anyone can be “invited” to leave the train, and if said person is posing a threat then that’s different, but “pay up or get off” is rarely well advised.

 

[jon0844]

This is always a tricky one to discuss, as clearly trains cannot be delayed for long periods of time over someone refusing to buy a ticket. However, if they learn they can get away with it then they'll brag about it on TikTok and before you know it, everyone will do it.

Look at shoplifting, or even the shocking increase in phone thefts by people on illegal electric motorcycles. These people know they won't be stopped, detained, or if they are unlucky enough to be caught later on, the punishments will be tiny.

So on that basis, there comes a point where you need to consider a zero tolerance policy to send out a message that if you try something, you won't get away with it. That's what we've hopefully done with the recent riots. Chances are the people bunking fares, stealing and being generally anti-social (such that people get put off going to their local town centre, or travelling on public transport) are the same people who would have gone out to throw bricks at police and set fire to things.

The poor train manager can't do this on their own. They need proper support from the authorities and management, and passengers need to be informed why things are being done. Reduce disruptive passengers and travel becomes nicer for everyone. Tolerate it and in the future, some people won't be using trains at all.

Will this happen? Unlikely given the low numbers of BTP officers, which isn't likely to change anytime soon. You could increase stings though, by having random trains have officers onboard. I can't imagine you'd need to do this for that long to send a message to people that the tide has turned.

 

[Towers]

This is always a tricky one to discuss, as clearly trains cannot be delayed for long periods of time over someone refusing to buy a ticket. However, if they learn they can get away with it then they'll brag about it on TikTok and before you know it, everyone will do it.

In reality of course, they won’t. The vast majority of passengers will continue to purchase a ticket regardless, even if only when asked to. Those who flatly refuse and happily enter into a conflict are likely to be the sort of people who would have done so anyway. The railway relies on this principle of the majority obeying the rules, just as our system of law and order does in general!

 

[Horizon22]

Or send the local force.


It's not "extremely unlikely". I've had a quick response when texting about a beggar in Birmingham New Street. It very much depends on whether there are officers available to respond.

Sometimes it’s luck of the draw. Somewhere like New St sure you’re likely to get a response. But even then if an arrest has recently been made then that’s a few officers tied down who can’t deal with anything else.

If you’re a guard on a regional service between D-E, there’s not going to be a good response time. Maybe when you get to the larger terminus (if there is one) but BTP would be travelling from a larger hub.

If there’s big regional events on they’ll also be tasked elsewhere.

Ultimately the industry itself funds the BTP and resources only go so far.

 

[Rich McLean]

All you can do is report their descriptions to Revenue Protection, and state the times they got on and off. Once a pattern of travel builds, RPIs will be aware and organise a sting. Not ideal, but there has been train crew in the North East who has been assaulted for simply asking to see their tickets. There are certain serial fare dodgers who are well known and you don't even approach them to ask for their tickets based on past behaviour. You just inform RP of their journey.

Eventually all the unpaid fares will catch up with them, with minimal delays made to trains and conflict avoided as far as reasonably practical.

There has been several incidents on Northern services in the North East fairly recently.

 

[al78]

This. Those who are likely to cough up will be asked to do so, those happy to tell staff to “jog on” (or similar) will likely be left to get on with it. It isn’t ideal, but what’s to be done?

Let Tacklebury show you by example how it's done:

It doesn’t matter; if said “grown adult” comes to grief somewhere as a result of having been dumped in the middle of nowhere on the last train of the night, I wouldn’t want to be the person who left them there. It’s dangerous to make decisions on who is safe to be left out in the cold based on their age, sex etc. Best just not to go there. Of course, anyone can be “invited” to leave the train, and if said person is posing a threat then that’s different, but “pay up or get off” is rarely well advised.

If "grown adult" just paid the fare this wouldn't be a risk at all for them.

Actions >> consequences. That is a fundamental lesson everyone has to learn when transitioning from childhood to adulthood.

 

[TUC]

It doesn’t matter; if said “grown adult” comes to grief somewhere as a result of having been dumped in the middle of nowhere on the last train of the night, I wouldn’t want to be the person who left them there. It’s dangerous to make decisions on who is safe to be left out in the cold based on their age, sex etc. Best just not to go there. Of course, anyone can be “invited” to leave the train, and if said person is posing a threat then that’s different, but “pay up or get off” is rarely well advised.

Although, as discussed in other past threads, on too many occasions trainloads of passengers are dumped on unexpected stations in the cold when disruption has occurred, without anyone taking responsibility to check they are safe and can get home.

 

[jon0844]

In reality of course, they won’t. The vast majority of passengers will continue to purchase a ticket regardless, even if only when asked to. Those who flatly refuse and happily enter into a conflict are likely to be the sort of people who would have done so anyway. The railway relies on this principle of the majority obeying the rules, just as our system of law and order does in general!

But there have been increases. I believe in a recent ticketless survey, SouthEastern was found to have something crazy like 15% ticketless travel. Shoplifting is off the charts. People are doing what they want, made the most clear by recent events on the streets by 'concerned citizens' (almost all of whom had a long list of prior convictions).

I appreciate that I'm talking a bit beyond the person on a train detailed here, but it's all connected. It hasn't happened overnight either.

Social media has told people how to operate SCUs to open barriers, that you can just apply pressure to open them, and even how to enter cabs. That you don't necessarily hear about every case doesn't mean it isn't a big problem that seems to keep growing - and why TOCs are now so actively working to reverse the trend, with things like employing more REOs and Travel Safe officers, issuing more bodycams and even protective clothing in some hotspots.

There have also been targeted stings to deal with antisocial behaviour getting out of control, such as along the south coast.

 

[bramling]

But there have been increases. I believe in a recent ticketless survey, SouthEastern was found to have something crazy like 15% ticketless travel. Shoplifting is off the charts. People are doing what they want, made the most clear by recent events on the streets by 'concerned citizens' (almost all of whom had a long list of prior convictions).

I appreciate that I'm talking a bit beyond the person on a train detailed here, but it's all connected. It hasn't happened overnight either.

Social media has told people how to operate SCUs to open barriers, that you can just apply pressure to open them, and even how to enter cabs. That you don't necessarily hear about every case doesn't mean it isn't a big problem that seems to keep growing - and why TOCs are now so actively working to reverse the trend, with things like employing more REOs and Travel Safe officers, issuing more bodycams and even protective clothing in some hotspots.

There have also been targeted stings to deal with antisocial behaviour getting out of control, such as along the south coast.

Covid response has to take some blame for this. It was allowed to drift for too long, and elements of it were allowed to become “business as usual” - one such element being a feeling of “I can do whatever I want and who is going to challenge me?”. IMV there should have been a definite break-point where a return to normality was declared. Johnson half tried it during late Summer 2020 but then flunked it, and from that point onwards the discourse was more dominated by inane stuff like the party scandals.

I read somewhere that there are now significant issues with secondary school children being more disruptive than usual. Who would have thought prolonged lockdown would have that effect?

I think that neatly sums up the problem with the UK at the minute - it is accepted that unpleasant people will be unpleasant, and that there may be consequences to taking any action in regards to maintaining societal norms like not being an unpleasant, aggressive scrote to attempt to get your own way.

There are some reasonable chunks of the country that need to go for the "Broken Windows" effect and make the lives of those concerned unbearable until their behaviour is corrected.

Can only agree very much with the above.

 

[Signal_Box]

If you were one of the other passengers wouldn't you rather that the train got moving and that the issue was resolved later? Why should everyone else be inconvenienced?


Although pretty much everyone would say that they brought it upon themselves.

Unless poor / disruptive behaviour is challenged then society falls apart as we are witnessing right now in this country.

Maybe the other passengers could have helped the guard remove this person from the train ?

 

[Towers]

Unless poor / disruptive behaviour is challenged then society falls apart as we are witnessing right now in this country.

Maybe the other passengers could have helped the guard remove this person from the train ?

Yikes! If the guard needs “help” that suggests things are getting physcial, and that’s a definite career-ender!

 

[Signal_Box]

Yikes! If the guard needs “help” that suggests things are getting physcial, and that’s a definite career-ender!

People are moaning about the guard making a stand, if they where that bothered they’d take a stand as a collective and force the person to leave - by their sheer presence of numbers telling them to leave.

 

[Krokodil]

It doesn’t matter; if said “grown adult” comes to grief somewhere as a result of having been dumped in the middle of nowhere on the last train of the night, I wouldn’t want to be the person who left them there. It’s dangerous to make decisions on who is safe to be left out in the cold based on their age, sex etc. Best just not to go there. Of course, anyone can be “invited” to leave the train, and if said person is posing a threat then that’s different, but “pay up or get off” is rarely well advised.

Earlier you mentioned that there would be legal ramifications. Which law, exactly?

I believe in a recent ticketless survey, SouthEastern was found to have something crazy like 15% ticketless travel. Shoplifting is off the charts.

I can't help but think that staffing cuts (both on trains and in shops) haven't helped there. This is on top of the rights of criminals being prioritised over victims.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It seems that a determined fare dodger has a good chance of getting away with it, while people who have made honest mistakes, and the woman who couldn't get the machine to work and honestly expected to be able to pay on the train, get prosecuted.

Yes and it is damned unfair.

 

[jon0844]

I can't help but think that staffing cuts (both on trains and in shops) haven't helped there. This is on top of the rights of criminals being prioritised over victims.

This and staff, arguably rightly, being told not to intervene and stand back. Employers don't want to deal with injured (or killed) staff, so you see staff do nothing but stand by. Now so many incidents are filmed, the fact staff rarely step in (there are notable exceptions and often the offenders scream 'hey, you can't touch me!' in shock) means a wider audience can see how easy it is.

It's like people who push through gates and tell others to do the same. They may be hesitant and worried, but after being told multiple times and staff just watching on, they do it and realise it was okay. So they are now going to do it again, and tell their friends.

We all want to get on with our lives, and I get that people just want to turn a blind eye and pretend they didn't see what's happening or risk being hurt. Some will use it to further their narrative (like falsely suggesting all the criminals are foreign/immigrants) but still not actually work towards finding a solution.

People today don't seem to follow the law because it's the right thing to do. They follow laws where they think they might get caught and punished. If there's no enforcement of other laws, they'll do what they like. This was the case before Covid but I agree that during that time there was an opportunity to fully experience the 'nobody will do anything' experience as public transport continued to run, and there was zero revenue protection.

 

[Horizon22]

Unless poor / disruptive behaviour is challenged then society falls apart as we are witnessing right now in this country.

Maybe the other passengers could have helped the guard remove this person from the train ?

This is true and the impact on passenger behaviour is just a wider symptom of societal issues. Only yesterday the Primer Minister spoke of a "a societal black hole" which I am sure many rail staff will attest to with behaviours that would have been totally unacceptable only 10 years ago becoming more commonplace / accepted / tolerated today.

 

[virgintrain1]

Yikes! If the guard needs “help” that suggests things are getting physcial, and that’s a definite career-ender!

"(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force."

I appreciate some TOCs don't allow their staff to be hands on at anytime, however that's not the case for all TOCs, It's far from ideal but on occasion it can be a very useful power especially when one individual is causing upset to the majority of the other customers. I've made use of this only a handful of times in 10 years but certainly saved huge delays awaiting police to attend.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

A few years ago we were on the last, sparsely-loaded HST out of Worcester up the Cotswold Line on a Saturday night. The guard came round and tried to check tickets. A disruptive group at the end of the carriage refused to pay, replied "nah, f—k off", and continued loudly talking among themselves.

When the train reached Evesham (because it's always Evesham), the stop wasn't announced, and indeed the train set off a minute or so early.

A few minutes later, the disruptive group realised they'd missed their stop and ran along the train shouting for the guard. No, sorry, guys, we've left and we can't go back. Yes, you are going to have to get off at Honeybourne. Yes, I agree, it is the backend of nowhere. No, there aren't any more trains tonight. Yes, you are going to have to book an expensive taxi home.

 

[Flying Snail]

Not a pleasant situation for train crew. I think some passengers forget this side and just union bash or other etc.

Not just passengers, there are some other supposed rail staff who are more than happy to second guess and criticise traincrew at every opportunity, particularly on internet forums.

 

[bramling]

Unless poor / disruptive behaviour is challenged then society falls apart as we are witnessing right now in this country.

Maybe the other passengers could have helped the guard remove this person from the train ?

On the latter point, how do you do that without risking a charge of assault? Apart from the presence of CCTV, there’s likely to be someone who takes it upon themselves to film the whole thing and place the footage on social media, either innocently (“you’ll never guess what happened on my train today”), or deliberately to get someone in trouble.

Railway staff can, in limited circumstances, use force to remove people (though in practice most companies don’t want staff doing it), however that doesn’t extend to other passengers lending a hand.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Not just passengers, there are some other supposed rail staff who are more than happy to second guess and criticise traincrew at every opportunity, particularly on internet forums.

Very sad.