DLR escalators at Cutty Sark all broken

[whoosh]

Cutty Sark has been a shambles for years.

It's interesting that the Lewisham extension and the Jubilee Line extension were built at roughly the same time. One was a flagship project, with massive and state of the art stations. The other was done a much much smaller budget...

One was much lauded at the time for being completed early.

Now look at it.

 

[Class15]

Why not using the other Greenwich station? Wouldn't walk be shorter?

For where I need to go, Cutty Sark is much much quicker. I need to get into the Naval College, and even the Foot Tunnel is easier, and cuts 2 stops off compared to Greenwich. (Also, I rather like the foot tunnel!)

When I leave in the evenings I get thameslink from Greenwich.

 

[Brooke]

For where I need to go, Cutty Sark is much much quicker. I need to get into the Naval College, and even the Foot Tunnel is easier, and cuts 2 stops off compared to Greenwich. (Also, I rather like the foot tunnel!)

When I leave in the evenings I get thameslink from Greenwich.

Interesting to learn I’m not the only person to do this!

I occasionally meet one of my suppliers in Greenwich & I just walk through from Island Gardens in the same way.

 

[bramling]

I need to travel there every week. I now use Island Gardens and walk through the foot tunnel instead. Cutty Sark is an absolute mess of a station currently.

Yes I used it a couple of weeks ago, the station currently has a real down-at-heel feel to it. A terrible impression for the many tourists who no doubt use it.

The whole station needs something of a freshening up. The street entrance has always been rather messy, feels like it’s built as a typical DLR “halt”, yet expected to function like a proper Underground station.

As regards the escalators, feels like another example of TFL burying their head in sand and just hoping a problem will go away.

 

[Geogregor]

Yes I used it a couple of weeks ago, the station currently has a real down-at-heel feel to it. A terrible impression for the many tourists who no doubt use it.

The whole station needs something of a freshening up. The street entrance has always been rather messy, feels like it’s built as a typical DLR “halt”, yet expected to function like a proper Underground station.[/Q

As regards the escalators, feels like another example of TFL burying their head in sand and just hoping a problem will go away.

The whole station is a mess, was in such state long before it was taken over by the TfL.

To give them some modest credit, closing it for total replacement of escalators might finally be some bold decision on the part of TfL. Hopefully they can do some other refresh at the same time.

 

[ScotGG]

Hard to know what else can be done after the escalators fixed. It's so cramped and who knows how it will be in 10 years time when frequencies on the line have increased along with extra capacity from new walk-through trains. People using the station will surely increase given new hotels proposed and the tourist friendly attractions are going nowhere.

 

[Taunton]

The constructors of the Lewisham extension, CGL Rail Plc (City Greenwich Lewisham) came to the end of their concession, apparently 24 years long, in 2021, and it was handed back to TfL. Meanwhile TfL had been checking it all out for some four years before this, since 2017, so should have had a complete picture of all assets - TfL of course have the largest Lifts & Escalators department in the country, so are not short of understanding. It's now 2025, a further four years on from the TfL takeover. Contrary to some misleading statements about the change, they were not "bought out", they came to an end point in the concession agreement. It was particularly an issue that the agreement payments were based on passenger usage, and in 2021 this had dropped right off due to Covid, so the concession owners had made a large loss in that last year and were glad to be shot of it. Maybe TfL were hoping to extend the concession, but they weren't entitled to expect it.

I don't know what maintenance contract CGL had on the escalators, but it assuredly would have ended in 2021 when their concession did, and TfL should surely have ensured the continuity. Things like manufacturers' assurances on availability of spare parts would have ended in 2021 at the end of the contract. Possibly CGL had some contract condition that if they got an extension of the concession, the maintenance contract would also be extended (such arrangements are normal), but of course CGL were not extending their contract.

Comments on lower architectural standards are bounced around, but the whole thing of doing a PFI centres around a cheap (it can be) way of doing infrastructure investment when the principal doesn't have the money. Typically you get a straightforward utilitarian project, it works, and you are saved the architectural ego-trips and such like that seem to inflate public projects (Jubilee Line Extension take note). Notably nothing on the Lewisham extension got the architects awards at industry annual events or anything like that. It was similar to the original DLR, done for £77m, an absolute bargain, could never have been afforded otherwise, was criticised for being excessive compared to the initial bus solution, but once it proved successful was then criticised for being underspecced. I have used Cutty Sark since it opened (in its first week, just days before the Millennium) and can never remember the escalators being failed before 2021.

 

[Geogregor]

The constructors of the Lewisham extension, CGL Ltd (City Greenwich Lewisham) came to the end of their concession, apparently 24 years long, in 2021, and it was handed back to TfL. Meanwhile TfL had been checking it all out for some four years before this, since 2017, so should have had a complete picture of all assets - TfL of course have the largest Lifts & Escalators department in the country, so are not short of understanding. It's now 2025, a further four years on from the TfL takeover. Contrary to some misleading statements about the change, they were not "bought out", they came to an end point in the concession agreement. It was particularly an issue that the agreement payments were based on passenger usage, and in 2021 this had dropped right off due to Covid, so the concession owners had made a large loss in that last year and were glad to be shot of it. Maybe TfL were hoping to extend the concession, but they weren't entitled to expect it.

I don't know what maintenance contract CGL had on the escalators, but it assuredly would have ended in 2021 when their concession did, and TfL should surely have ensured the continuity. Things like manufacturers' assurances on availability of spare parts would have ended in 2021 at the end of the contract. Possibly CGL had some contract condition that if they got an extension of the concession, the maintenance contract would also be extended (such arrangements are normal), but of course CGL were not extending their contract.

Comments on lower architectural standards are bounced around, but the whole thing of doing a PFI centres around a cheap (it can be) way of doing infrastructure investment when the principal doesn't have the money. Typically you get a straightforward utilitarian project, it works, and you are saved the architectural ego-trips and such like that seem to inflate public projects (Jubilee Line Extension take note). Notably nothing on the Lewisham extension got the architects awards at industry annual events or anything like that. It was similar to the original DLR, done for £77m, an absolute bargain, could never have been afforded otherwise, was criticised for being excessive compared to the initial bus solution, but once it proved successful was then criticised for being underspecced. I have used Cutty Sark since it opened (in its first week, just days before the Millennium) and can never remember the escalators being failed before 2021.

The problem with the PFI contracts is that everything is designed with its length in mind. So I wouldn't be surprised if the escalators were designed with the lifespan of 20 years or so as after that it would be someone else problem.

I'm not going to defend wider TfL mismanagement but here I don't think thing as clear cut as in some other locations.

 

[jon81uk]

I have used Cutty Sark since it opened (in its first week, just days before the Millennium) and can never remember the escalators being failed before 2021.

I lived near Island Gardens 2010-2020 and although I didn't use Cutty Sark very much as we used the foot tunnel more, there definitly was periods of closure, may not have failed, but they had one escalator closed and a one way system with entry via the stairs.

 

[stuu]

I have used Cutty Sark since it opened (in its first week, just days before the Millennium) and can never remember the escalators being failed before 2021.

I used to use it fairly regularly 2005-2010 and there were often escalators closed for work, it's definitely not a new thing

 

[Taunton]

The problem with the PFI contracts is that everything is designed with its length in mind. So I wouldn't be surprised if the escalators were designed with the lifespan of 20 years or so as after that it would be someone else problem.

I'm not going to defend wider TfL mismanagement but here I don't think thing as clear cut as in some other locations.

The PFI contract just has to reflect that. If TfL (actually it was the old London Regional Transport predecessor who did the contracts) wanted marble finishes on the stations they only have to say, and the concession will price accordingly. Cutty Sark station nearly didn't get built at all because the finances didn't add up, but the agreement was adapted late in the process to have it.

Regarding asset life, as described the maintenance agreement with the manufacturers commonly has provision for being extended if the concession is extended, but if not there is no liability to maintain stocks of otherwise obsolete parts. It's one of the holds an incumbent PFI operator has over any competitor at renewal time. In any event this does seem a common escalator lifespan - the ones on the Jubilee Line at Canning Town and elsewhere, which opened the same month, have already gone through a complete replacement cycle (and comparably have had extended periods with one or more out of action, including currently after the recent replacement). The concession agreement with CGL would have been to hand back everything serviceable, which I'm sure the escalators would have been on transfer day, just of course with everything having 24 years of usage and technical obsolescence behind it.

 

[Mikey C]

The PFI contract just has to reflect that. If TfL (actually it was the old London Regional Transport predecessor who did the contracts) wanted marble finishes on the stations they only have to say, and the concession will price accordingly. Cutty Sark station nearly didn't get built at all because the finances didn't add up, but the agreement was adapted late in the process to have it.

Yes, it's a tricky site and added to the project cost, but it was crazy that it was nearly dropped, and then built on the cheap when with its location right at the heart of tourist Greenwich, it was obviously going to be very popular. Looking at the 2023 figures, 7.6m compared to Island Gardens on the other side with 2.4m, making it the 6th busiest.

Similarly, it was also ridiculous that nearby Woolwich was nearly not built on the Elizabeth Line, and the belated station was done on the cheap with only one entrance, and is now overcrowded as a result.

 

[Geogregor]

Yes, it's a tricky site and added to the project cost, but it was crazy that it was nearly dropped, and then built on the cheap when with its location right at the heart of tourist Greenwich, it was obviously going to be very popular. Looking at the 2023 figures, 7.6m compared to Island Gardens on the other side with 2.4m, making it the 6th busiest.

Similarly, it was also ridiculous that nearby Woolwich was nearly not built on the Elizabeth Line, and the belated station was done on the cheap with only one entrance, and is now overcrowded as a result.

We seems to be going from one extreme to another in this country. From building on the cheap to gold plating, with very little practically solid middle...

 

[Taunton]

You have to ask why the finances didn't add up for Cutty Sark (the busiest) but did for all the other stations. Fact is that it's the only actual underground station, on a very tight town centre site. Even Island Gardens is cut-and-almost-cover; Cutty Sark is deep (as you find going up all those stairs), a big excavation job. I don't recall how they disposed of the huge quantity of excavated material.

I do wonder why the station now has to be closed for escalator replacement when their route is not being used at present, with people using the separate stairs and lift.

 

[jon81uk]

I do wonder why the station now has to be closed for escalator replacement when their route is not being used at present, with people using the separate stairs and lift.

Because they will need to buy and manufacture the escalators before fitting them.

Why they can't have the current escalators available as a fixed staircase is another question though.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I do wonder why the station now has to be closed for escalator replacement when their route is not being used at present, with people using the separate stairs and lift.

Pure speculation, but I'm guessing they feel they can get the job done quicker if the station is closed throughout the works.

Because they will need to buy and manufacture the escalators before fitting them.

What's that got to do with anything?

Why they can't have the current escalators available as a fixed staircase is another question though.

Escalators aren't designed to be used as fixed staircases. The have higher step heights and no intermediate landings.

 

[jon81uk]

What's that got to do with anything?

I mis-understood the previous posters question, I thought they were wondering why they couldn't start work now as the escalators are already out of use, when having read it again they mean the station will be completely closed during the works.

 

[stuu]

I do wonder why the station now has to be closed for escalator replacement when their route is not being used at present, with people using the separate stairs and lift.

Presumably because the closed escalators count as a secondary means of escape in an emergency, which won't be there if they have been taken to bits

 

[IslandDweller]

I lived next to Island Gardens at the time the Lewisham extension was being planned and subsequently constructed. At that time, I was a Director of the Residents Management Company for my development, and in that capacity I attended liaison meetings between the CGL Project team and local residents groups.

In the early stages of the project, the CGL representatives told us that neither Cutty Sark nor Island Gardens would be built because “there wasn’t a business case”. For Cutty Sark, this changed very quickly when their finance colleagues realized that they could make money out of redeveloping the Cutty Sark site with overbuildings – something they would not be able to gain from if they failed to build the station. The Cutty Sark site was very difficult for the construction team due to difficult access and being in an area of historic buildings. As others have speculated, it was definitely constructed on the basis of “minimum we can get away with”. At the time DLR was expected to stay with two-car (four carriage) trains and when DLR expanded to three-car (six carriages), the cost of trying to expand Cutty Sark was deemed far too high. Hence the daily fun of watching tourists (who have grabbed the front “driving seats”) being horrified when they realise that they can’t get off at Cutty Sark as the doors towards the very front and very back are disabled.

I concur with other posters that the escalators have long been unreliable, almost since opening. There have been long periods over many years when at least one escalator has been out of action.

On the point of Island Gardens not really being an underground station because it is cut-cover and close to the surface. The safety rules say it qualifies as an underground station and it must be staffed whenever it is open for passenger use. As an aside, Island Gardens was only built because another resident representative on the liaison committee was familiar with every last clause of the enabling Parliamentary Act – indeed he had made personal representations to Parliament on the matter. The CGL project team were astonished when he told them that the Act specified that Island Gardens had to be built (it wasn’t optional). He also knew (which the project team were blissfully unaware of until he pointed out the clause) that their proposed construction approach (removing spoil with trucks from the Island Gardens end) was not viable as the Act also specifically limited the number of construction lorry movements. It had been assumed by the team drafting the Act that spoil would be removed by river barge. In the end, the spoil was spread over the playing field in Mudchute park. This had been prone to flooding as it was so close to the water table. Spreading the spoil to increase the pitch height suited the users of the park and was cheaper for CGL.

I found all this very instructive – to observe a complete lack of coordination within CGL between their legal team (who surely knew the constraints that the enabling Act put on them) and their construction project team (who seemed to think they had free reign to do as they pleased).

There is a further detail to this saga. Local residents have just received a glossy booklet from tfl, explaining that although they will now need to pay a toll for driving through the Blackwall/Silvertown tunnels, they are encouraged to forego the car and instead use a free crossing on the DLR. The free journey is only free if passengers travel between Island Gardens and Cutty Sark. Seems that the Silvertown team are unaware that another part of tfl is specifically telling customers not to use Cutty Sark and to travel to Greenwich instead.

 

[Geogregor]

I used yesterday, first time in a while. I forgot how tine the lift is, barely fitting 5, max 6 people.

Took a few shots on the platform level:


20250213_203147 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20250213_203201 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20250213_203459 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20250213_203543 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

 

[Ken X]

Escalators aren't designed to be used as fixed staircases. The have higher step heights and no intermediate landings.

There is also the risk of the machine rolling back due to the load of users overcoming the parking brake.

Some machines have locking pins to prevent this during maintenance. Some require the installation of restraining chains to prevent rollback.

In essence, their use as a staircase is not allowed.

Apologies for losing control of the quote function.

 

[J-2739]

I lived next to Island Gardens at the time the Lewisham extension was being planned and subsequently constructed. At that time, I was a Director of the Residents Management Company for my development, and in that capacity I attended liaison meetings between the CGL Project team and local residents groups.

In the early stages of the project, the CGL representatives told us that neither Cutty Sark nor Island Gardens would be built because “there wasn’t a business case”. For Cutty Sark, this changed very quickly when their finance colleagues realized that they could make money out of redeveloping the Cutty Sark site with overbuildings – something they would not be able to gain from if they failed to build the station. The Cutty Sark site was very difficult for the construction team due to difficult access and being in an area of historic buildings. As others have speculated, it was definitely constructed on the basis of “minimum we can get away with”. At the time DLR was expected to stay with two-car (four carriage) trains and when DLR expanded to three-car (six carriages), the cost of trying to expand Cutty Sark was deemed far too high. Hence the daily fun of watching tourists (who have grabbed the front “driving seats”) being horrified when they realise that they can’t get off at Cutty Sark as the doors towards the very front and very back are disabled.

I concur with other posters that the escalators have long been unreliable, almost since opening. There have been long periods over many years when at least one escalator has been out of action.

On the point of Island Gardens not really being an underground station because it is cut-cover and close to the surface. The safety rules say it qualifies as an underground station and it must be staffed whenever it is open for passenger use. As an aside, Island Gardens was only built because another resident representative on the liaison committee was familiar with every last clause of the enabling Parliamentary Act – indeed he had made personal representations to Parliament on the matter. The CGL project team were astonished when he told them that the Act specified that Island Gardens had to be built (it wasn’t optional). He also knew (which the project team were blissfully unaware of until he pointed out the clause) that their proposed construction approach (removing spoil with trucks from the Island Gardens end) was not viable as the Act also specifically limited the number of construction lorry movements. It had been assumed by the team drafting the Act that spoil would be removed by river barge. In the end, the spoil was spread over the playing field in Mudchute park. This had been prone to flooding as it was so close to the water table. Spreading the spoil to increase the pitch height suited the users of the park and was cheaper for CGL.

I found all this very instructive – to observe a complete lack of coordination within CGL between their legal team (who surely knew the constraints that the enabling Act put on them) and their construction project team (who seemed to think they had free reign to do as they pleased).

There is a further detail to this saga. Local residents have just received a glossy booklet from tfl, explaining that although they will now need to pay a toll for driving through the Blackwall/Silvertown tunnels, they are encouraged to forego the car and instead use a free crossing on the DLR. The free journey is only free if passengers travel between Island Gardens and Cutty Sark. Seems that the Silvertown team are unaware that another part of tfl is specifically telling customers not to use Cutty Sark and to travel to Greenwich instead.

Very interesting post, thanks for sharing!

 

[cool110]

There is a further detail to this saga. Local residents have just received a glossy booklet from tfl, explaining that although they will now need to pay a toll for driving through the Blackwall/Silvertown tunnels, they are encouraged to forego the car and instead use a free crossing on the DLR. The free journey is only free if passengers travel between Island Gardens and Cutty Sark. Seems that the Silvertown team are unaware that another part of tfl is specifically telling customers not to use Cutty Sark and to travel to Greenwich instead.

They've since issued an updated version of the booklets (residents, businesses) saying that Greenwich or Cutty Sark are eligible for the automatic refund.