DLR Thamesmead extension Consultation

[Snow1964]

New consultation on possible Thamesmead Extension
New station north of river at Beckton Riverside

We would like to hear your views about our proposal to extend the Docklands Light Railway (DLR). Our preferred option is a cross-river extension of the DLR from Gallions Reach, with two new stations in Beckton Riverside and Thamesmead.

On this page you can find out more about our preferred option, as well as other options we considered and the planned next steps for the scheme. There is also more detail about how you can have your say, and more information about the vision for Beckton Riverside and Thamesmead.

You have until 18 March 2024 to give us your feedback.

Extending the Docklands Light Railway to Beckton Riverside and Thamesmead

UPDATE 19 MARCH 2024 The consultation has now closed. Thank you to everyone who responded. We are analysing your feedback and will report back shortly. We would like to hear your views about our proposal to extend the Docklands Light Railway (DLR). Our preferred option

haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk

 

[ScotGG]

Hell of a lot for something that doesn't even go as far as Abbey Wood.

Better use of infrastructure spend in London I'd say such as Bakerloo line extension, more Jubilee line stock and tram extensions. In fact a tram for Thamesmead would make far greater sense and connect it to nearby stations.

Such a network could cross the river or stay south linking various towns to the Elizabeth line.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Its an election year this year. I wouldn't be surprised if extending the DLR to Thamesmead is an election promise from Khan. Interesting that on the map on the linked website says "possible further extension" after Thamesmead.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hell of a lot for something that doesn't even go as far as Abbey Wood.

It doesn’t need to- the bus links to Abbey Wood are fine. What Thamesmead struggles with is links to the Docklands area- perfect for the DLR.

Better use of infrastructure spend in London I'd say such as Bakerloo line extension

Doesn’t do anything for Thamesmead, which continues to be one of the worst-connected and most-deprived areas of London. Which is the point of expanding DLR to assist.

 

[Busaholic]

If there's to be another railway tunnel under the Thames to Thamesmead it would be better imo from the Barking Riverside direction, and continuing on to Abbey Wood. How many Thamesmead residents, current or future, will need to get on a regular basis to Canary Wharf or environs?

 

[W-on-Sea]

The DLR is a bit slow, with all those stops between Beckton and Canning Town (and not even a direct service to Canary Wharf), but Thamesmead always gets a raw deal....and they've been talking about building some kind of railway to there for over 50 years, and it will beyond time that was done.

In principle though I think a link to Docklands would be far more useful than one to Barking (what is the economic or social benefit in linking one impoverished area on one side of the river with another on the opposite side with which it has no obvious link, beyond that, recalling Linda Smith's comment about Erith having a suicide pact with Dagenham?), and help greatly with the regeneration of Thamesmead, as well with its incorporation into "London beyond Woolwich". Easier access for jobs beyond the area for people in TM, and potentially a way of attracting new people to live in TM, too.

 

[Recessio]

The key driver behind this is the sheer amount of housing this can unlock. Thamesmead is undergoing massive development (and redevelopment).

I remember there was talk of extending the GOBLIN from Barking Riverside - has this been replaced by this DLR extension?

 

[Meerkat]

It doesn’t need to- the bus links to Abbey Wood are fine. What Thamesmead struggles with is links to the Docklands area- perfect for the DLR.

Bus to Abbey Wood and Lizzie to Canary Wharf - wont that be better than a slow DLR to Canning Town and changing to another DLR or the Jubilee?

 

[Thirteen]

Trams would require digging up roads and adding tracks which would cost a lot of money which is probably why the DLR is being proposed.

 

[TrenHotel]

If there's to be another railway tunnel under the Thames to Thamesmead it would be better imo from the Barking Riverside direction, and continuing on to Abbey Wood. How many Thamesmead residents, current or future, will need to get on a regular basis to Canary Wharf or environs?

The key driver for the extension is not the existing residents of Thamesmead, but the construction of two major, privately-funded riverside developements. Everything else is a happy consequence.

That said, while I think the extension would do good in the long run, it's a bit of a fob-off. Thamesmead desperately needs other options and not pursuing a link north to Barking and beyond is incredibly short-sighted, even if the Overground can currently only provide four trains an hour. (I think it was said on another thread here that a Hammersmith & City connection would require too much demolition in Barking.)

 

[Busaholic]

The DLR is a bit slow, with all those stops between Beckton and Canning Town (and not even a direct service to Canary Wharf), but Thamesmead always gets a raw deal....and they've been talking about building some kind of railway to there for over 50 years, and it will beyond time that was done.

In principle though I think a link to Docklands would be far more useful than one to Barking (what is the economic or social benefit in linking one impoverished area on one side of the river with another on the opposite side with which it has no obvious link, beyond that, recalling Linda Smith's comment about Erith having a suicide pact with Dagenham?), and help greatly with the regeneration of Thamesmead, as well with its incorporation into "London beyond Woolwich". Easier access for jobs beyond the area for people in TM, and potentially a way of attracting new people to live in TM, too.

If the Barking line incorporated a link from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood for connection with the Elizabeth Line and NR services, I'd think that better value than an extension from the delights of Beckton, which Linda Smith would doubtless remember for its slag heap! I'm am old SE Londoner, grew up in Borough of Woolwich, the greenest borough in the old London County Council, and travelled on the first ever bus route into Thamesmead on its first weekend.

 

[ScotGG]

Its an election year this year. I wouldn't be surprised if extending the DLR to Thamesmead is an election promise from Khan. Interesting that on the map on the linked website says "possible further extension" after Thamesmead.

It will never go beyond Thamesmead as the DLR.

It doesn’t need to- the bus links to Abbey Wood are fine. What Thamesmead struggles with is links to the Docklands area- perfect for the DLR.

Doesn’t do anything for Thamesmead, which continues to be one of the worst-connected and most-deprived areas of London. Which is the point of expanding DLR to assist.

Thamesmead residents don't struggle to get to the Docklands since DLR to Woolwich opened in '09 and certainly not since Crossrail to Abbey Wood. Frequent buses taking a few mins now to abbey Wood or Woolwich from Thamesmead and once new rapid transit/SL links start imminently even quicker meaning reaching Woolwich DLR/Elizabeth line and then journey to Docklands is 10-20 mins including bus from Thamesmead. Hardly cut off.

Thamesmead being cut off was partly true when built in the 1960-70s. It's not true now. It's a doddle to reach the docklands and even easier once new SL/BRT starts. This plan is silly given vast cost.

Bus to Abbey Wood and Lizzie to Canary Wharf - wont that be better than a slow DLR to Canning Town and changing to another DLR or the Jubilee?

Yep that's doable *now* quicker than the proposed DLR extension plan let alone when SL3 direct from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood starts next month and BRT to Woolwich next year.

Can't see much benefit to this at all compared to increasing transport capacity from Thamesmead beside the river to the Elizabeth line to ensure housing is built. It wouldn't cost the earth like this plan (which is electioneering and won't happen anyway but blows a few grand)

Trams would require digging up roads and adding tracks which would cost a lot of money which is probably why the DLR is being proposed.

More expensive than a tunnel under the thames? We're talking a couple of billion.

The key driver for the extension is not the existing residents of Thamesmead, but the construction of two major, privately-funded riverside developements. Everything else is a happy consequence.

That said, while I think the extension would do good in the long run, it's a bit of a fob-off. Thamesmead desperately needs other options and not pursuing a link north to Barking and beyond is incredibly short-sighted, even if the Overground can currently only provide four trains an hour. (I think it was said on another thread here that a Hammersmith & City connection would require too much demolition in Barking.)

No way on earth the two proposed housing plots either side would fund but a fraction of the proposed costs. It'll still need a huge amount of public funds. Given what's needed in London this is surely of less importance than most given its already near excellent new transport links with firm plans now in place to reach them more easily. The DLR plan is nice but when seeing the cost it all falls apart. Electioneering at best. Thamesmead needs better and can do better than this. It's a folly.

If there's to be another railway tunnel under the Thames to Thamesmead it would be better imo from the Barking Riverside direction, and continuing on to Abbey Wood. How many Thamesmead residents, current or future, will need to get on a regular basis to Canary Wharf or environs?

Anyone that does can take a bus in 5 mins to Elizabeth line (and more quickly soon with superloop 5 and BRT next) then lizzie in 7 mins to Canary Wharf which is quicker than this DLR idea will be unless living directly next to the one solitary Thamesmead station proposed for a cool £2 billion.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That said, while I think the extension would do good in the long run, it's a bit of a fob-off. Thamesmead desperately needs other options and not pursuing a link north to Barking and beyond is incredibly short-sighted, even if the Overground can currently only provide four trains an hour. (I think it was said on another thread here that a Hammersmith & City connection would require too much demolition in Barking.)

Considering either project requires digging a whole new tunnel under the Thames for the trains/DLR, I'd have thought that the cost of reconfiguring tracks at Barking to get the Hammersmith and City trains onto the line to Barking Riverside would be small change by comparison.

On another note, the survey doesn't give the impression that TfL have done much detailed thinking yet. The consultation website gives no specifics about the route - not even any suggestions for precisely where in Thamesmead and Beckton Riverside the two new stations might be. So I assume TfL haven't yet got even that far in their thinking.

Also, the supplementary information (https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-extension/news_feed/appendix-b#3) rules out extending the Overground with one of the reasons being:

However, services would only operate at around four trains per hour compared with the potential for up to 15 trains per hour in the peak with a DLR extension.

Aside from that I guess they haven't considered the Hammersmith and City possibility, my reaction to that 15tph an hour on the DLR is... Uh???? How can that be possible? Where would all those extra DLR trains run to? I would imagine that would cause chaos at Canning Town if you try to add all those trains to the existing Beckton trains. The only way I can see it being possible is if TfL build a triangle junction near Gallions Reach for the new extension, so that some of of the Thamesmead trains head for Canning Town/whereever and others are simply Thamesmead-Beckton shuttles - which is not going to be very useful to anyone.

 

[stuu]

Aside from that I guess they haven't considered the Hammersmith and City possibility, my reaction that that 15tph an hour on the DLR is... Uh???? How can that be possible? Where would all those extra DLR trains run to? I would imagine that would cause chaos at Canning Town if you try to add all those trains to the existing Beckton trains. The only way I can see it being possible is if TfL build a triangle junction near Gallions Reach for the new extension, so that some of of the Thamesmead trains head for Canning Town/whereever and others are simply Thamesmead-Beckton shuttles - which is not going to be very useful to anyone.

I would have thought that cutting back trains to Beckton is a possibility - perhaps a separate Beckton-Custom House shuttle and everything else runs to Thamesmead?

 

[Busaholic]

Considering either project requires digging a whole new tunnel under the Thames for the trains/DLR, I'd have thought that the cost of reconfiguring tracks at Barking to get the Hammersmith and City trains onto the line to Barking Riverside would be small change by comparison.

On another note, the survey doesn't give the impression that TfL have done much detailed thinking yet. The consultation website gives no specifics about the route - not even any suggestions for precisely where in Thamesmead and Beckton Riverside the two new stations might be. So I assume TfL haven't yet got even that far in their thinking.

Also, the supplementary information (https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/dlr-extension/news_feed/appendix-b#3) rules out extending the Overground with one of the reasons being:



Aside from that I guess they haven't considered the Hammersmith and City possibility, my reaction to that 15tph an hour on the DLR is... Uh???? How can that be possible? Where would all those extra DLR trains run to? I would imagine that would cause chaos at Canning Town if you try to add all those trains to the existing Beckton trains. The only way I can see it being possible is if TfL build a triangle junction near Gallions Reach for the new extension, so that some of of the Thamesmead trains head for Canning Town/whereever and others are simply Thamesmead-Beckton shuttles - which is not going to be very useful to anyone.

I don't feel too much detailed thinking has gone into this at all. I suspect Greenwich Council getting into TfL's ear, and then Sadig Khan's,is the driver for this. They've never forgotten or forgiven the Jubilee Line bifurcation that never was at North Greenwich which would have terminated at Thamesmead, Crossrail succeeded in dampening the ardour, but still didn't quite reach Thamesmead. I suspect the proposed DLR extension is Khan's equivalent to Johnson's championing of a Northern Line extension to Battersea above much more urgent projects, but being Johnson he got so much of the uncritical media on his side with it in the end, and a conniving government too.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Yep that's doable *now* quicker than the proposed DLR extension plan let alone when SL3 direct from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood starts next month and BRT to Woolwich next year.

Can't see much benefit to this at all compared to increasing transport capacity from Thamesmead beside the river to the Elizabeth line to ensure housing is built. It wouldn't cost the earth like this plan (which is electioneering and won't happen anyway but blows a few grand)

Perhaps a ferry from the bank of the Thames at the top of Linton Mead to Barking Riverside pier (connected to the station) with your London standard bus/tram fare and included in fare capping would be a decent idea. You'd then get the connectivity you need at a fraction of the cost.
You could route a lot of the nearby buses to stop nearby, and the ones that would be awkward would be a 10 min walk away max. at Thamesmead Town Centre.

 

[MPW]

One idea I haven't seen mentioned, so probably for good reason, is to 'just' connect the beckton branch to the existing DLR tunnel to woolwich. The capacity would be there at the woolwich end of the line, as the main constraints are the western terminal and junctions. Then all that would be needed in thamesmead is bus lanes to woolwich and abbey wood (which should be done anyway!).

More fantasy idea, if linking from woolwich to beckton, is to keep going up the A1020 to barking for onward connections to much wider area of east london than the isolated beckton DLR branch currently provides.

And now way off topic (sorry) - I massively support the green party proposal to close LCY. I'm not a green voter, but it's ridiculous to me that we're going to continue to focus new residential areas directly under a runway. That land is also sooo valuable in itself for redevelopment. No one wants to live directly under a flight path like that, people would only put up with it because they can't find the home they want at a decent price elswhere. It has such a big impact on the financial viability and quality of life for these future developments.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Under the plans a new DLR station would be built at Beckton Riverside, with a tunnel built under the River Thames linked to another new DLR station at Thamesmead.

TfL plans to extend rail service and build new stations

Proposals to extend the DLR from Gallions Reach to Thamesmead via Beckton Riverside would create two brand new stations.

www.londonworld.com

Is there demand for yet another DLR station in the Beckton area?

 

[90sWereBetter]

I appear to be in the minority here as I'm 100% in favour of getting Thamesmead onto the tube and rail map by any means necessary. Thamesmead's had good bus links for 60 years in the form of the 177, 229 and 472 and it's done nothing for the neighbourhood

As someone on a railway forum, I look forward to the day I can catch a DLR service from the City of London to Thamesmead.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I appear to be in the minority here as I'm 100% in favour of getting Thamesmead onto the tube and rail map by any means necessary. Thamesmead's had good bus links for 60 years in the form of the 177, 229 and 472 and it's done nothing for the neighbourhood

As someone on a railway forum, I look forward to the day I can catch a DLR service from the City of London to Thamesmead.

You're not the only one, I too look forward to it, as do many people in Thamesmead.

 

[Taunton]

I've never got the fixation with transport projects to Thamesmead, which has been around since the Fleet Line proposals of the 1970s. It is essentially a run-down council estate, which already, at Abbey Wood, has Thameslink, multiple South Eastern routes, and now Liz Line services. Internal buses within the area from Abbey Wood station seem notably frequent, although looking inside not that well used. If a rail service there is really desired, extend the Liz Line by one station, curving round in a tunnel to the centre.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I've never got the fixation with transport projects to Thamesmead, which has been around since the Fleet Line proposals of the 1970s. It is essentially a run-down council estate,

Have you ever spent much time in Thamesmead? While it does have some pretty dire-looking blocks of flats and the so-called 'centre' is an awful retail park-style place, it also has a lot of very nice housing, often surrounded by parks and waterways. Beside, even if it was essentially a run-down council estate, does that mean the people who live there don't deserve good public transport?

which already, at Abbey Wood, has Thameslink, multiple South Eastern routes, and now Liz Line services. Internal buses within the area from Abbey Wood station seem notably frequent, although looking inside not that well used. If a rail service there is really desired, extend the Liz Line by one station, curving round in a tunnel to the centre.

Making people use buses to get to the station almost certainly puts a lot of people off. In London, if you use bus and train then you have to pay twice on Oyster/contactless due to the lack of integrated bus/train fares. And there's the issue that buses tend to be a lot slower and for many people less comfortable, as well as being prone to being caught in traffic (not yet a huge issue in Abbey Wood but some of the roads are definitely getting busier, and it's a real issue if you want to take the bus from Thamesmead to anywhere near Woolwich).

Perhaps a ferry from the bank of the Thames at the top of Linton Mead to Barking Riverside pier (connected to the station) with your London standard bus/tram fare and included in fare capping would be a decent idea. You'd then get the connectivity you need at a fraction of the cost.
You could route a lot of the nearby buses to stop nearby, and the ones that would be awkward would be a 10 min walk away max. at Thamesmead Town Centre.

It might only be a fraction of the capital cost, but I'd imagine the running cost of a ferry is going to be pretty high compared to buses and trains. And I doubt it would attract that many people: The number of people wanting to travel specifically from Thamesmead to Barking Riverside is likely to be tiny. The market for longer journeys will be much larger but it's not going to attract many people if you have to get a bus to Thamesmead, change to a ferry to Barking Riverside, then get a train to Barking, and then possibly change to a different train to get to wherever you actually want to go! I'm pretty sure an actual train service running Abbey Wood-Thamesmead-Barking Riverside - Barking - wherever would get much more used than any ferry would.

 

[AlastairFraser]

One idea I haven't seen mentioned, so probably for good reason, is to 'just' connect the beckton branch to the existing DLR tunnel to woolwich. The capacity would be there at the woolwich end of the line, as the main constraints are the western terminal and junctions. Then all that would be needed in thamesmead is bus lanes to woolwich and abbey wood (which should be done anyway!).

More fantasy idea, if linking from woolwich to beckton, is to keep going up the A1020 to barking for onward connections to much wider area of east london than the isolated beckton DLR branch currently provides.

And now way off topic (sorry) - I massively support the green party proposal to close LCY. I'm not a green voter, but it's ridiculous to me that we're going to continue to focus new residential areas directly under a runway. That land is also sooo valuable in itself for redevelopment. No one wants to live directly under a flight path like that, people would only put up with it because they can't find the home they want at a decent price elswhere. It has such a big impact on the financial viability and quality of life for these future developments.

The Beckton to Barking idea is the most promising, but it wouldn't be cheap (because you've got to deal with at least crossing both the A13 and A406).
Plus the DLR isn't like the downgraded tram (East London Transit) - it needs to be completely segregated, which means several miles of viaduct as the most likely option.

It might only be a fraction of the capital cost, but I'd imagine the running cost of a ferry is going to be pretty high compared to buses and trains. And I doubt it would attract that many people: The number of people wanting to travel specifically from Thamesmead to Barking Riverside is likely to be tiny. The market for longer journeys will be much larger but it's not going to attract many people if you have to get a bus to Thamesmead, change to a ferry to Barking Riverside, then get a train to Barking, and then possibly change to a different train to get to wherever you actually want to go! I'm pretty sure an actual train service running Abbey Wood-Thamesmead-Barking Riverside - Barking - wherever would get much more used than any ferry would.

It would get more ridership as a train, certainly.
However, the capital investment needed to build a tunnel under the Thames would be out of TfL's grasp for at least a decade or 2.
An interesting hybrid idea would be extending the DLR from Gallions Reach on a viaduct across the mouth of the Roding and down River Rd to Barking Riverside, then running the ferry as suggested so people can connect onto either the Overground or the DLR there.

 

[TrainBoy98]

I doubt people would go the the ferry-hybrid though - less changes seems to be quite high on passenger priorities when deciding how to travel

 

[AlastairFraser]

I doubt people would go the the ferry-hybrid though - less changes seems to be quite high on passenger priorities when deciding how to travel

That's partly because it usually requires separate ticketing though - in my scheme it wouldn't.
Where it is integrated, it is more successful e.g. the Shields Ferry for example.

 

[MotCO]

What are the required traffic flows from Thamesmead? If it is to central London, could the Uber Ferries be extended to Thamesmead?

 

[Wolfie]

The DLR is a bit slow, with all those stops between Beckton and Canning Town (and not even a direct service to Canary Wharf), but Thamesmead always gets a raw deal....and they've been talking about building some kind of railway to there for over 50 years, and it will beyond time that was done.

In principle though I think a link to Docklands would be far more useful than one to Barking (what is the economic or social benefit in linking one impoverished area on one side of the river with another on the opposite side with which it has no obvious link, beyond that, recalling Linda Smith's comment about Erith having a suicide pact with Dagenham?), and help greatly with the regeneration of Thamesmead, as well with its incorporation into "London beyond Woolwich". Easier access for jobs beyond the area for people in TM, and potentially a way of attracting new people to live in TM, too.

You do know, l assume, that both Barking and Dagenham are currently the subject of massive investment.

I appear to be in the minority here as I'm 100% in favour of getting Thamesmead onto the tube and rail map by any means necessary. Thamesmead's had good bus links for 60 years in the form of the 177, 229 and 472 and it's done nothing for the neighbourhood

As someone on a railway forum, I look forward to the day I can catch a DLR service from the City of London to Thamesmead.

I absolutely agree.

 

[AlastairFraser]

What are the required traffic flows from Thamesmead? If it is to central London, could the Uber Ferries be extended to Thamesmead?

The "Uber Ferries" stop directly opposite at Barking Riverside Pier, so an extension wouldn't be a particularly large investment, but they are significantly more expensive than most other transport modes in London and wouldn't represent value for money in delivering the link to the Docklands and Central London that Thamesmead desperately needs.

Edit: they also take 55 mins to Embankment from Barking Riverside (times from Thamesmead would be roughly equivalent), so they just aren't competitive with land based transport into the city.

 

[SynthD]

I suspect the proposed DLR extension is …

Is there demand for yet another DLR station in the Beckton area?

I've never got the fixation with transport projects to Thamesmead, which has been around since the Fleet Line proposals of the 1970s.

It unlocks planning permission for houses on both sides of the river. Despite all the buses, this is still needed. Barking Riverside is the nearest of countless examples where buses were not enough.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It unlocks planning permission for houses on both sides of the river. Despite all the buses, this is still needed. Barking Riverside is the nearest of countless examples where buses were not enough.

Well, especially since the buses were intended to be a tram which would give a faster and more useful service to the wider area from Ilford down to the Riverside, but it was descoped and the EL-series buses take ages to actually get to the station.