Do I have to use the most direct route?

[Robnw67]

I was think of an interesting day out and looked at Northern Rail tickets from Preston to Carlisle. However, I was wondering if I have to use the most direct route in either direction? I was thinking Preston - Blackburn - Clitheroe - Settle - Carlisle and for the return: Carlisle - Maryport - Ravenglass - Carnforth - Preston. I wouldn't get off at these places, just illustrating the route (I don't really know how else to express that type of route). The tickets say that I can use any permitted off peak train, so I couldn't see why I wouldn't be allowed to do this.......

 

[mikeg]

You may take either the most direct route, any through train or any route in the national routeing guide . As far as I can remember your route wouldn't be permitted on the outward though the return via the Cumbrian coast and Furness line looks fine. I'm doing this from memory and will check the routeing guide properly when I get home

 

[cosmo]

Someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to give a more precise answer, but my interpretation of the National Routeing Guide (an extremely complicated set of documents used to make such enquiries is as follows:

- For an "ANY PERMITTED" ticket between Carlisle and Preston, the route code is "GP" (Glasgow to Preston), so the following routes are valid

- Carlisle to Preston via Sellafield, Barrow-in-Furness and Lancaster
- Carlisle to Preston via Penrith and Lancaster

Carlisle to Blackburn is permitted, but no further than Accrington and there's no valid turnaround other than to double back, so I wouldn't recommend trying that one.

 

[Bertie the bus]

You have to abide by the restrictions of the ticket. The only Any Permitted ticket seems to be the £47.70 Anytime Return. Buy that one and you can probably do as you suggest (I say probably as I have not referred to the Routeing Guide). Buy a cheaper ticket and you can't.

 

[mikeg]

If the OP is trying to take in part of the settle and Carlisle line and the Cumbrian coast from Preston, the Cumbrian day ranger may be of interest, though you'd change at Lancaster or carnforth for the little north western rather than going via Blackburn

 

[NorthOxonian]

I was think of an interesting day out and looked at Northern Rail tickets from Preston to Carlisle. However, I was wondering if I have to use the most direct route in either direction? I was thinking Preston - Blackburn - Clitheroe - Settle - Carlisle and for the return: Carlisle - Maryport - Ravenglass - Carnforth - Preston. I wouldn't get off at these places, just illustrating the route (I don't really know how else to express that type of route). The tickets say that I can use any permitted off peak train, so I couldn't see why I wouldn't be allowed to do this.......

Since you're travelling Clitheroe - Settle, I'm assuming you're making this journey on a Sunday? (That's the only day trains run north of Clitheroe in normal service)

In that case, the outward leg would be fine, provided you were on the direct through train from Preston to Carlisle.

There is an Anytime Return which is cheaper than the Any Permitted which is specifically routed "Via Clitheroe" - so it should be possible to buy that (and use it for the outward part), and then obtain an excess for the return leg at the ticket office in Carlisle.

 

[30907]

Worth mentioning that the train via Hellifield hasn't run very often this summer - though it did yesterday.

 

[JB_B]

If you use the £21.00 DalesRail Off Peak Day return (route:Northern Only) you can go out via Clitheroe and Settle and then return via the Cumbrian Coast. ( As far as I can see this relies on the direct train train rule for the validity via the S&C so quite limited opportunities.)

 

[Haywain]

If you use the £21.00 DalesRail Off Peak Day return (route:Northern Only) you can go out via Clitheroe and Settle and then return via the Cumbrian Coast. ( As far as I can see this relies on the direct train train rule for the validity via the S&C so quite limited opportunities.)

There will be very limited opportunities to travel via Clitheroe without the direct train.

 

[JB_B]

There will be very limited opportunities to travel via Clitheroe without the direct train.

Yes, AFAIK the only services via Clitheroe are DalesRail and they are direct to Carlisle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you use the £21.00 DalesRail Off Peak Day return (route:Northern Only) you can go out via Clitheroe and Settle and then return via the Cumbrian Coast. ( As far as I can see this relies on the direct train train rule for the validity via the S&C so quite limited opportunities.)

Have you actually done that? DalesRail used to be treated as a sort of charter and so the tickets weren't valid on any other service. It might be technically valid via the Cumbrian Coast but I have a feeling a "discussion" might ensue, as it's certainly not intended to be (the name is the clue!)

More of a problem in the 90s was that regular tickets weren't valid on it (there are still quite a few still routed Lancaster, though not now all of them) and so people got double-charged for using it, even though the first non-DalesRail Sunday northbound from Preston past Oxenholme was about 1530! Though back then it was an actual Lancashire County Council charter and not a "bona fide" BR service, so things were perhaps different?

I suspect the route is Northern Only rather than DalesRail Only so you can use other S&C services part way if you wish rather than to enable the use of other routes.

 

[JB_B]

Have you actually done that? DalesRail used to be treated as a sort of charter and so the tickets weren't valid on any other service. It might be technically valid via the Cumbrian Coast but I have a feeling a "discussion" might ensue, as it's certainly not intended to be (the name is the clue!)

No, I haven't but (unsurprisingly) transplit will offer the DalesRales day return going out via the S&C and back via the Coast. Just possibly this isn't what Northern intended but it's clearly valid.

I suspect the route is Northern Only rather than DalesRail Only so you can use other S&C services part way if you wish rather than to enable the use of other routes.

That would be slightly odd. Since it's not a mapped route and not the shortest route, this ticket is only valid via the S&C because of the direct train rule. ( The idea that it's route:Northern only in order to facilitate changing onto regular S&C services doesn't fit with your suggestion that it's a quasi-charter.)

 

[Bertie the bus]

No, I haven't but (unsurprisingly) transplit will offer the DalesRales day return going out via the S&C and back via the Coast. Just possibly this isn't what Northern intended but it's clearly valid.

Which I wouldn't trust as it seems to offer the Dalesrail ticket via the Cumbrian Coast both ways. NRES doesn't consider Dalesrail as valid via the Cumbrian Coast and I doubt conductors would either.

 

[Watershed]

As the old saying goes, "Route: Any Permitted" doesn't mean "any route is permitted", even though it that might seem logical!

On an "Any Permitted" ticket, you can use any direct train, or the shortest route, or a route defined in the Routeing Guide.

The latter doesn't allow you to use the route via Clitheroe and the S&C. But it does allow routes via Penrith or Barrow.

So you are only permitted to use the route via Clitheroe if you use the direct DalesRail service that, when Northern feel in a generous mood, runs on a Sunday.

Whilst the DalesRail Off-Peak Day Return (£21.00) is clearly intended for the eponymous service, you are quite entitled to follow any itinerary you book via Barrow.

 

[Bertie the bus]

You are only allowed to take advantage of things like that if it is not obviously a mistake. If it is obviously a mistake, like when companies put expensive TVs up for sale for £9.99 instead of £999 you have no legal rights. Just because people want trainsplit to be right and NRES to be wrong doesn’t mean that is the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you are only permitted to use the route via Clitheroe if you use the direct DalesRail service that, when Northern feel in a generous mood, runs on a Sunday.

Interestingly there are also, for a slightly higher cost, route Clitheroe tickets. If you have a ticket routed via somewhere not on a Permitted Route, you work out Permitted Routes to that point and from it. So those definitely are valid on non direct trains, and by their existence also make the Any Permitted Anytime de-facto valid as an excess would be zero.

(There isn't an Off Peak Day Return Any Permitted, it is routed Penrith and cheaper than the ones via Clitheroe)

Whilst the DalesRail Off-Peak Day Return (£21.00) is clearly intended for the eponymous service, you are quite entitled to follow any itinerary you book via Barrow.

Indeed, as ever if you buy with an itinerary and stick to that itinerary you are by definition valid, whether the railway intended for that itinerary to be sold or not.

You are only allowed to take advantage of things like that if it is not obviously a mistake. If it is obviously a mistake, like when companies put expensive TVs up for sale for £9.99 instead of £999 you have no legal rights. Just because people want trainsplit to be right and NRES to be wrong doesn’t mean that is the case.

This is incorrect. If the itinerary is sold by an accredited retailer, it is valid, just like if you purchase the television for £9.99 and it is delivered you are entitled to keep it.

What you are thinking about is whether the retailer has to deliver the TV or can just cancel the order and refund it. They can do that, but if it is delivered it is yours.

The railway has no means of cancelling a paper ticket, so if it is issued then it can't be rescinded per se.

More amusing is that there is a route Penrith Anytime at nearly twice the Any Permitted one. I wonder if anyone ever buys that? Foolish if so...

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is incorrect. If the itinerary is sold by an accredited retailer, it is valid, just like if you purchase the television for £9.99 and it is delivered you are entitled to keep it.

What you are thinking about is whether the retailer has to deliver the TV or can just cancel the order and refund it. They can do that, but if it is delivered it is yours.

The railway has no means of cancelling a paper ticket, so if it is issued then it can't be rescinded per se.

More amusing is that there is a route Penrith Anytime at nearly twice the Any Permitted one. I wonder if anyone ever buys that? Foolish if so...

It was correct because it was obviously the entering into a contract part I was referring to. If the company delivers the goods then they have agreed to abide by the contract even if it was a mistake.

If this ticket is valid via the Cumbrian Coast then perhaps you could explain why trainsplit doesn’t offer it Mon-Sat, only Sun? If the only restriction is you have to travel on a Northern train then it would offer it 7 days per week.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

More amusing is that there is a route Penrith Anytime at nearly twice the Any Permitted one. I wonder if anyone ever buys that? Foolish if so...

Which of the two might you get charged if you boarded an Avanti train without a valid ticket?

As a separate question, do any WCML trains run at times when the (route via Penrith) Off Peak (SVR) ticket isn't valid?

 

[JB_B]

...

If this ticket is valid via the Cumbrian Coast then perhaps you could explain why trainsplit doesn’t offer it Mon-Sat, only Sun? If the only restriction is you have to travel on a Northern train then it would offer it 7 days per week.

I think that's because the ticket isn't valid Mon-Sat. ( See https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=PRE&dest=CAR&rte=83&tkt=DRI )

 

[Paul Kelly]

If this ticket is valid via the Cumbrian Coast then perhaps you could explain why trainsplit doesn’t offer it Mon-Sat, only Sun?

You need to search for a date between 9th and 11th September. Until then there is a "only valid on Sundays" restriction attached to the ticket type, and after that it's not valid at all. See detailed validity page on BR Fares:



https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=PRE&dest=CAR&rte=83&tkt=DRI
Edit: corrected and added more detail.

 

[Watershed]

It was correct because it was obviously the entering into a contract part I was referring to. If the company delivers the goods then they have agreed to abide by the contract even if it was a mistake.

If this ticket is valid via the Cumbrian Coast then perhaps you could explain why trainsplit doesn’t offer it Mon-Sat, only Sun? If the only restriction is you have to travel on a Northern train then it would offer it 7 days per week.

The average consumer would have no idea what "DalesRail" is, and would therefore have no idea what significance (if any) the term "DalesRail Off-Peak Day Return" has, as compared to an ordinary Off-Peak Day Return.

Accordingly the consumer is unlikely to be aware of there being any mistake (where, by contrast, pricing a TV at £10 is obviously a mistake). Without that knowledge, the circumstances where a contract can be undone are much more limited.

More to the point, there isn't any mechanism for train companies to "unsell" already sold tickets. So whilst they might have the legal right to do so in a narrow set of circumstances, it's just not something they can do in practice.

Trainsplit sells any ticket type that hasn't been disabled for fulfilment by online retailers. Most other retailers work on the opposite basis - they only sell tickets within a defined list of ticket types (e.g. SDR, CDR). This is why Trainsplit will sometimes be the only retailer to sell a given ticket.

In this instance, the fares data limits DalesRail CDRs to being sold on Sundays - similar to how Thameslink-priced CBA/CBB Super Off-Peak Day Returns are only available on weekends (and bank holidays).

Given the above, there is nothing surprising about Trainsplit being one of few retailers to sell this ticket online, or about it only doing so on Sundays.

 

[tspaul26]

You are only allowed to take advantage of things like that if it is not obviously a mistake. If it is obviously a mistake, like when companies put expensive TVs up for sale for £9.99 instead of £999 you have no legal rights. Just because people want trainsplit to be right and NRES to be wrong doesn’t mean that is the case.

It was correct because it was obviously the entering into a contract part I was referring to. If the company delivers the goods then they have agreed to abide by the contract even if it was a mistake.

The example given of an incorrect advertised price pertains to an invitation to treat by the retailer. The customer then makes an offer to purchase at the low price which the vendor may accept or decline. It is the vendor’s action that creates the contractual bargain, not the customer’s.

This is in law nothing to do with mistake at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this ticket is valid via the Cumbrian Coast then perhaps you could explain why trainsplit doesn’t offer it Mon-Sat, only Sun? If the only restriction is you have to travel on a Northern train then it would offer it 7 days per week.

The electronic restrictions only make it valid on Sundays during the DalesRail operating period.

I am certain it is not intended to be valid that way, but if it is sold with an itinerary and you follow it it unquestionably is.

Which of the two might you get charged if you boarded an Avanti train without a valid ticket?

Haven't they done away with the rule that an Anytime can be charged at an off peak time for that case? But even if they haven't it should be the cheaper one, it isn't a "discounted ticket".

I think we may have uncovered another error here, the cheaper one is no doubt meant to be routed Barrow or similar as it is set by Northern. Indeed I thought it was at one point!

 

[Watershed]

I think we may have uncovered another error here, the cheaper one is no doubt meant to be routed Barrow or similar as it is set by Northern. Indeed I thought it was at one point!

I don't think it's an error. Northern are the overall flow setter. But Avanti set the slightly cheaper fares valid only on the WCML. There's no reason that the interavailable Northern fare need be routed via Barrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it's an error. Northern are the overall flow setter. But Avanti set the slightly cheaper fares valid only on the WCML. There's no reason that the interavailable Northern fare need be routed via Barrow.

I wonder how that came about given that it has never been possible to travel from Preston to Carlisle using regional services via the WCML.

And if Avanti have set extra ones, why the inflated SOR? It should never be sold.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder how that came about given that it has never been possible to travel from Preston to Carlisle using regional services via the WCML.

And if Avanti have set extra ones, why the inflated SOR? It should never be sold.

Sometimes a very expensive SOR was kept as a "punishment fare" for the purposes of UFNs or sales on board where people had passed an opportunity to pay, although I argue that's sharp practice. There is no real need for that SOR now.