Do protests threaten our efforts at reducing the virus

[MattA7]

With all the protests happening due to the tragic murder of George Floyd in the US. Are we at risk of seeing a raise in the number of cases. Although I fully support campaigns against racism I’m also concerned about the risk of all our lockdown efforts being undone by protests (which are essentially mass gatherings)

 

[BJames]

It is a difficult one. If we weren't in the middle of a pandemic I would have probably been at Hyde Park yesterday. An interesting article this morning on the Guardian highlighted the concerns of Cressida Dick, Police Commissioner, about stopping the protests - those in charge think that trying to stop the protests might turn them from peaceful to violent. That will cause even more problems. I think I agree.

Edit: article was from yesterday, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ockdown-rules-were-enforced-at-racism-protest

Britain’s top officer has said police feared there would be violence if they tried to intervene with protesters in London angered by the brutal death of George Floyd at the hands of an American officer.

Demonstrators at protests in London on Sunday and Tuesday flouted coronavirus lockdown rules on how many people can gather together.

But the Metropolitan police commissioner, Cressida Dick, said that with feelings running high over the police brutality case in the US and because of the effects of the coronavirus lockdown, officers feared serious and violent disorder if they stepped in to enforce lockdown rules.

 

[MikeWM]

I'm actually more concerned that both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, in their statements yesterday supporting peaceful protests, appear entirely unaware of the fact that *they themselves* have outlawed such protests in this country with their emergency regulations. I already know that they don't have a clue what they're doing, but that is another level of self-unawareness entirely.

 

[thejuggler]

No more than all the other gatherings which have taken place since relaxation of lockdown.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I don't think they're likely to have any more impact than other recent events.

I'm certainly very suspicious of those who criticise the protests for spreading the virus, while remaining silent on the crowds flocking to the beaches or Dominic Cummings.

 

[duncanp]

However, if there isn't a spike in cases in a couple of weeks time following these protests, then there is a case for relaxing the lockdown rules even further, and in particular getting rid of the ridiculous 2 metre social distancing rule, and the idea that we need to book a space on a local bus or train.

 

[MattA7]

I don't think they're likely to have any more impact than other recent events.

I'm certainly very suspicious of those who criticise the protests for spreading the virus, while remaining silent on the crowds flocking to the beaches or Dominic Cummings.

As someone who is probably considered of ethnic minority myself I fully support campaigns against racism and injustice towards ethnic minorities. I was simply concerned that any mass gatherings would jeopardize the efforts on tackling the virus.

As for beaches we should have a higher police presence in such hotspots to at least deter such people. unfortunately the lockdown was reduced at the same time we had a burst of good weather which probably makes matters worse.

 

[underbank]

However, if there isn't a spike in cases in a couple of weeks time following these protests, then there is a case for relaxing the lockdown rules even further, and in particular getting rid of the ridiculous 2 metre social distancing rule, and the idea that we need to book a space on a local bus or train.

Two ways of looking at that. If there's no spike, then it may only be because of the recent lockdown, i.e. so few people infected. There's a chance that no one was infected & contageous at the protests so there was nothing to spread. It doesn't mean it's safe to do that, but only that it was safe because of the lockdown and pure luck. As lockdown eases and the number of people with covid starts to rise again then such mass gatherings will become higher risk. So, it may have been "safe" yesterday, but doing the same thing in 2 months' time may be incredibly dangerous.

 

[Silverlinky]

I don't think they're likely to have any more impact than other recent events.

I'm certainly very suspicious of those who criticise the protests for spreading the virus, while remaining silent on the crowds flocking to the beaches or Dominic Cummings.

and that works the other way too......those kicking off about Cummins and the beachgoers whilst condoning protests like this at this time.

 

[NorthOxonian]

and that works the other way too......those kicking off about Cummins and the beachgoers whilst condoning protests like this at this time.

Oh, absolutely. There were even MPs who were at the protest despite being very vocal against Cummings and in favour of social distancing, and I consider them hypocrites too.

 

[WestCoast]

and that works the other way too......those kicking off about Cummins and the beachgoers whilst condoning protests like this at this time.

Absolutely correct in my view. Coronavirus doesn't respect the reason for people gathering together, no matter how noble a cause it is. It goes against the spirit of the guidance that is designed to protect the wider society. There are a couple of articles in the Guardian about how people struggled to maintain social distance at the Belfast demonstration. There are many other ways people can offer practical support to the cause of being anti-racist in the UK e.g. pledging support to numerous charities.

A friend on social media invited me to a protest on Sunday and is promoting it all over social media, in spite of the fact the protest she wanted to attend on the Saturday was cancelled due to health fears expressed from people in the local BAME community. In the current situation, I'm struggling to understand how this type of action can truly be of benefit to anyone of any community?

 

[Qwerty133]

I don't think they're likely to have any more impact than other recent events.

I'm certainly very suspicious of those who criticise the protests for spreading the virus, while remaining silent on the crowds flocking to the beaches or Dominic Cummings.

While it is clear that anybody who things the levels of crowding on a small number of beaches has been acceptable but is moaning about the protest will be doing so because they do not agree with the protest (and therefore deserves to be looked at suspiciously), trying to compare the protests to what Dominic Cummings has done is somewhat of a false equivalence. The things that Cummings has done relate to a completely different part of the lock down and I do not think it unrealistic that many genuinely consider that some parts of the lock down are more important in keeping the infection rate down than others. Such people may very well view different types of breaches of the rules differently whatever the purpose of the breaches were and could therefore be genuinely be criticising one type of breach while overlooking another for reasons solely to do with Corona.

 

[adc82140]

In the middle of May there was a hoo-ha in the media (quelle surprise) about people crowding on beaches in Devon & Cornwall, and how this would cause an outbreak. Three and a half weeks on (and Covid-19 has a maximum two week incubation) - was there an outbreak? No.

There was an article on the BBC website yesterday (sorry can't link as posting from the phone) about super spreading events, and how they cause upwards of 80% of spread. These were all indoor activities, like conferences, meetings, gyms, bars, nightclubs.

 

[yorkie]

With all the protests happening due to the tragic murder of George Floyd in the US. Are we at risk of seeing a raise in the number of cases. Although I fully support campaigns against racism I’m also concerned about the risk of all our lockdown efforts being undone by protests (which are essentially mass gatherings)

Yes this is a concern but it would be of greater concern if actions were taken which caused them to turn violent.

 

[Qwerty133]

In the middle of May there was a hoo-ha in the media (quelle surprise) about people crowding on beaches in Devon & Cornwall, and how this would cause an outbreak. Three and a half weeks on (and Covid-19 has a maximum two week incubation) - was there an outbreak? No.

There was an article on the BBC website yesterday (sorry can't link as posting from the phone) about super spreading events, and how they cause upwards of 80% of spread. These were all indoor activities, like conferences, meetings, gyms, bars, nightclubs.

Much of the media seems to be (purposely?) ignoring that religious venues are also major culprits for spreading the virus.

 

[Butts]

If Trumps slogan is "when the looting starts - the shooting starts" I wonder what Boris's equivalent would be.

The problem with these protests, aside from the risk of spreading the lurgies, is that when it descends into looting and mayhem credibility with the very people they need to get on board disappears.

 

[PHILIPE]

With all the protests happening due to the tragic murder of George Floyd in the US. Are we at risk of seeing a raise in the number of cases. Although I fully support campaigns against racism I’m also concerned about the risk of all our lockdown efforts being undone by protests (which are essentially mass gatherings)

I thought gatherings were restricted to a maximum of 6 people.

 

[sheff1]

I thought gatherings were restricted to a maximum of 6 people.

They are, but the police have stated (post #2) that if they tried to enforce the law then the law breakers are likely to turn violent.

I'm actually more concerned that both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, in their statements yesterday supporting peaceful protests, appear entirely unaware of the fact that *they themselves* have outlawed such protests in this country with their emergency regulations. I already know that they don't have a clue what they're doing, but that is another level of self-unawareness entirely.

Rather than unawareness, to me it is yet another confirmation that the people who impose restrictions via legislation do not actually believe those restrictions are worthwhile, but they feel the need to be 'doing something'.

 

[yorkie]

I thought gatherings were restricted to a maximum of 6 people.

Yes but there was no realistic alternative but to take a pragmatic approach.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Rather than unawareness, to me it is yet another confirmation that the people who impose restrictions via legislation do not actually believe those restrictions are worthwhile

I think that's harsh. Fundamentally you have to govern by consent- unless you want to go full Xi Jinping- and so there's a certain amount of pragmatism needed. There's no point antagonising people.

I'm surprised BAME people- who are far more likely to suffer badly from a Covid infection- are prepared to protest now, about something happening a long way away, and put themselves at risk. But I'm not BAME, so...

 

[sheff1]

I think that's harsh. Fundamentally you have to govern by consent- unless you want to go full Xi Jinping- and so there's a certain amount of pragmatism needed. There's no point antagonising people.

Plenty of people have been antagonised by the 'do what we say, not what we do' actions of the legislation makers and their advisers. I stand by my view that people who support/justify failure to comply with restrictions they themselves have imposed cannot actually believe the restrictions are worthwhile. If they genuinely believed in the essential nature of the restrictions they would not support/justify the breaking of them.

Either a gathering of >6 is so dangerous it needs banning by legislation, or it is not. Covid-19 has no respect for the nature of gatherings.

 

[yorkie]

The more larger gatherings, and the more close contact there is, the more the virus will be able to spread among those in attendance

Some gatherings will be unavoidable/preventable and some will be avoidable/preventable.

I guess your question is whether, if we cannot avoid/prevent the unavoidable/preventable gatherings, should we therefore stop avoiding the avoidable ones?

 

[telstarbox]

I think that's harsh. Fundamentally you have to govern by consent- unless you want to go full Xi Jinping- and so there's a certain amount of pragmatism needed. There's no point antagonising people.

I'm surprised BAME people- who are far more likely to suffer badly from a Covid infection- are prepared to protest now, about something happening a long way away, and put themselves at risk. But I'm not BAME, so...

On a point of order, Black Lives Matter is specifically about the problems faced by black people - and those problems are not confined to the US.

 

[yorkie]

On a point of order, Black Lives Matter is specifically about the problems faced by black people - and those problems are not confined to the US.

Though if the claim is that the purpose is not to protest recent events in the US, now isn't a sensible time for it. I don't think anyone could really make that claim, though I agree it's about the wider issues too.

 

[telstarbox]

Sorry I don't understand your post completely?

 

[Jozhua]

This moment is the canary in the coal mine for many, especially in the US.

The US has far less proportion of population infected by the looks of things (approximately 50% of the deaths we have seen in the UK), so there is room for a second wave. Plus, the spread is unequal, so while New York is less likely to see a second wave, places like California who have had relatively few cases, are ripe for a very sudden spike in infections.

Here in the UK, I think there is a chance of us seeing a moderate increase again, but possibly not on the scale of the first wave.

Ultimately, months of lockdown was always unsustainable and you cannot tieneman square away your issues when dealing with pesky human rights...

So yeah, we'll see what happens. Probably another week before we begin to see if things have been cooking up in the US and probably two to see the effects in the UK. Let's just hope the outcome is better than many of us worry it will be.

 

[johnnychips]

If you have watched that poor man’s death - and I could only bear to see it once, you can understand the anger in any country. Pragmatically, it is mainly younger people who have attended the demonstrations and will not be at risk of serious effects if they catch CV, and it is in the open air. However, if I had attended, I would be avoiding any significant contact with my grandma (if I had one) for a week or so.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I stand by my view that people who support/justify failure to comply with restrictions they themselves have imposed cannot actually believe the restrictions are worthwhile.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Yes, I agree with that. I don't think failing to criticise BLM does though.

On a point of order, Black Lives Matter is specifically about the problems faced by black people - and those problems are not confined to the US.

Yes, I know it is, but the catalyst for the latest protests was what happened in the US. I'm also well aware those problems are not confined to the US. It is telling, for instance, that the only known arrest, detention and prosecution for a Covid breach- all unlawful- was of a black woman.

It just seems odd timing.

 

[scotrail158713]

This seems more sensible in Edinburgh https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-52915537

Dozens of protesters have taken a knee for George Floyd during a socially-distant peaceful action in Edinburgh.

Mr Floyd died in police custody in the US after a white officer held him down by pressing a knee into his neck on 25 May, sparking international protests.

The 46-year-old could be heard pleading for air in a video filmed by onlookers.

While thousands joined a protest in London , a smaller number gathered in the Scottish capital for the event organised by Stand Up To Racism.

Around 50-60 people gathered at 18:00 in Parliament Square outside St Giles' Cathedral.

They observed distancing measures and wore masks.

Police were joined by liaison officers for the short protest, which lasted for 15 minutes.
Sabby Dhalu, Stand Up To Racism co-convenor, said: "We are outraged that yet another black person has been killed at the hands of the police in the US and instead of calling for justice for George Floyd, Donald Trump chooses to inflame racism by threatening military action on protesters.

"The events unfolding in the US are a product of hundreds of years of racism and oppression of black communities, which has led to countless lives lost."

Sabby Dhalu added: "We must remember that we are in the midst of the deadly coronavirus global pandemic and that tens of thousands of BAME communities have died disproportionately as a result of this.

"We share the concerns of many scientists regarding the premature easing of the lockdown and the disproportionate impact this could have on BAME communities."

Another rally is being planned on Sunday by another group in Edinburgh.

Protesters are due to meet at Holyrood Park for the event from 13:00.

Organisers of the Edinburgh in Solidarity with Black Lives Matter rally met Edinburgh City Council and Police Scotland officials on Wednesday to discuss the event.

The "peaceful, static protest" will include "speeches and performances from black community organisers and artists".

 

[MikeWM]

I think that's harsh. Fundamentally you have to govern by consent- unless you want to go full Xi Jinping- and so there's a certain amount of pragmatism needed. There's no point antagonising people.

But we seem to be switching from governing by consent where we agree on the things that shouldn't be allowed, to governing by consent where we agree on what things we'll turn a blind eye too. That's really bad.

Banning all protest - but ignoring that when it happens to be a protest that is politically convenient to support - is not a good place for a society to be.